Lets end this once and for all! Question to the BoG/FnF fans

[EXBadguy]

I think it's time I get this off my chest. And I know other people here are probably asking the same question too.

So to the people who loved BoG and FnF/RF, If Toei or any other company made the last two movies with the same story and the same transformations instead of Toriyama, would you still like it? Would you give any of the company props? Would you praise it like it was made by Toriyama? Lemme know.

[Doctor.]

What about to the people who are BoG fans and not F fans? Or vice-versa?

[EXBadguy]

Either way is fine. I'm just putting them altogether.

[LuckyCat]

I don't think Toriyama's name alone made those movies good. If say, for example, an interview was released today where it was revealed that movie 4 was entirely conceived and written by Toriyama, I would still think it was a terribly conceived movie.

BoG also started with Toei's writing and was only later changed in some parts by Toriyama, and the resulting collaboration was a good movie.

[VegettoEX]

It's impossible to say. We ("we" being the people that frequent Kanzenshuu) know too much. We know where all this stuff came from in terms of a production method, what fueled it all, where it ended up, how it's being done now with Super, etc.

Maybe we can take a step back and try to think if we'd approach it differently, but it's tough. The things I like so much about Battle of Gods are undoubtedly due to Toriyama's touch and oversight. I think it would be impossible for anyone else to replicate that, so I therefore think it's impossible to project this alternate universe where someone else made it exactly the same except Toriyama wasn't involved. I just don't buy that premise in the least.

I guess my main question for YOU is: so what? I phrase it that way because you start it up by saying you need to get something off your chest. What does my personal enjoyment of Battle of Gods mean to you, and why does it seemingly agitate you? Would it matter if I went into excruciating detail about the things I like, why I think they're written beautifully, and why I don't think they're capable of existing without Toriyama?

(I ask the questions, but I let it be known that I do understand the emotion: I have a really hard time understanding how anyone can watch the series with replacement music, and when someone does, I have this need to know the "WHY" and what I can do to help guide them away ^_~.)

[Zephyr]

Yeah, probably. I don't hate something automatically because it was made by Toei (I love the Bardock TV Special, several of the Toei movies, filler bits like the Ginyu Force fighting everyone at Kaio's), nor do I enjoy something automatically because it was made by Toriyama (I don't particularly care for the fact that Tao Pai Pai and Tenshinhan got tossed to the side over the course of the manga's run ).

I have a feeling that this thread is meant to be more of a subtle "people wouldn't like this new stuff if it didn't have Toriyama's name plastered all over it!" thread than anything else; and that conversation's already pretty much been done to death.

[Cetra]

Seeing how I like some stuff written by Toei way more, no.

[Doctor.]

Either way is fine. I'm just putting them altogether.

In that case, if Toei's staff wrote Battle of Gods, then I'd applaud them for it, and if Toei's staff wrote F, then I'd say they did a terrible job, just like I do now when Toriyama is involved. In general, I prefer Toriyama's work a lot more to anything Toei Animation does with it, with a few exceptions here and there. But this doesn't mean I can't recognize when a good or poor job is done, in either side. But, like VegettoEX said, it's unlikely that Toei's staff would be able to replicate it. While F feels more like a Toei film than anything else, perhaps even worse than anything Toei has ever done.

I like the Super Saiyan God transformations, both the red and the blue one. Not because they were designed by Toriyama. I dislike Golden Freeza. I dislike Broly's LSS transformation. They were designed by Toriyama. I like Janemba's final form, that wasn't designed by Toriyama. What am I getting here? If you think that the sole reason people like the new movies is because of Toriyama's involvement, then that's certainly not true. It's personal preference just like with anything.

[Bullza]

Yeah I'm sure I'd definitely have enjoyed them. However being that it is from Toriyama and it is canon and knowing that what happens in these movies does matter then I prefer it all the more because of that.

So no I wouldn't have liked them as much but I'd still like them and think they made all the previous movies look like shit in comparison.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Are we talking about the movies being exactly how they were? if so I personally don't care who makes what as-long as it is entertaining. So to answer the question. Of course. I personally think BoG Super is better then BoG film in quite a few regards, the only difference is Toriyama makes is the characters feel like themselves, Toei can write good stories but they can't capture the characters to save their lives.

[ekrolo2]

Most of us on Kanzenshuu I don't think particularly care, on the outside? Hell. No. If they got released exactly as they are there's no way in hell the likes of the YT fans would praise them nearly as much because its not "Toriyama-sensei!" therefore "not-canon!" because canonicity is standard for all stories and why things like TDKReturns, All Star Superman, and basically every comic book adaptation & AU ever are automatically awful.

[fadeddreams5]

You know, when I joined Kanzenshuu, I felt I entered a bizarro world, where a lot of people hate the Cell saga, despise Faulconer music, and consider BoG the best DBZ movie by far. Everywhere else I've personally visited has always been the opposite, from my experience. But I enjoy the contrast; almost everyone here can actually explain in detail why they like what they do.

So, on-topic, I don't think people like the new movies because they're made by Toriyama. That lighthearted, comedic style is just appreciated. That, and the fact that Beerus and Whis are pretty well-developed, likable characters, unlike other generic DBZ villains.

[Draconic]

Of course. Hell, I like Super's version of BoG more and I bet that has nothing to do with Toriyama.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I probably would like them a tad less. I liked Resurrection 'F' less after finding out that Super was essentially making it non-canon (in my opinion on canonicity), but it was still awesome. I will even admit that if Toriyama got hospitalized and in his recovery wrote GT I would like it for it having been an official continuation of Z. But for the two movies I would see them as essentially fanfics. Good ones, but nothing important.

[dbzfan7]

I think people wouldn't be much different....regarding things like story. Designs however I don't see being nearly as accepted. Say SSGSS for instance. The same kind of design, mocked for years on fan art sites for being a recolour and not having any creativity in them. Fans who recoloured old forms were essentially looked over as being lame and unimaginative people. Then when it's official, suddenly that's ok....and those fan artist still suck apparently despite doing the same thing years before Toriyama did it.

[VegettoEX]

The same kind of design, mocked for years on fan art sites for being a recolour and not having any creativity in them. Fans who recoloured old forms were essentially looked over as being lame and unimaginative people. Then when it's official, suddenly that's ok....and those fan artist still suck apparently despite doing the same thing years before Toriyama did it.

This is a nice story to tell to back up your claims, but it's a HUGE assumption and I'm SUPER curious if anyone's found any examples of even one single person actually being hugely hypocritical about this.

I mean, do you actually have an examples of anyone saying this? Anyone at all? Or is it just a generalization you're tossing out there? Who is this mystery person that hated blue-haired recolors in the past and has simultaneously now gone on-record again as praising the new forms? Is there a name? Who is this fan you're talking about? Name some names! (Without somehow personally attacking them, I guess...?! )

I think it's waaaaaaaaay more nuanced than you're making it out to be. And EVEN THEN, people are absolutely allowed to change their opinions! Maybe someone didn't like the design, but after seeing it in context of the film, came around to an appreciation. That's certainly likely, right?

[Cipher]

I'm going to echo VegettoEX here in saying that many of the elements I like about the films are distinctly Toiyama, and I doubt they could have come out similarly under anyone else's pen. That said, had we somehow gotten identical movies from Toei's staff alone, I believe I'd still enjoy and be critical of them in the same ways.

I quite like GT though; Toriyama's writing style is a big draw, and I love his non-Dragon Ball works as well, but his name isn't a prerequisite for my enjoying new Dragon Ball material.

[dbzfan7]

The same kind of design, mocked for years on fan art sites for being a recolour and not having any creativity in them. Fans who recoloured old forms were essentially looked over as being lame and unimaginative people. Then when it's official, suddenly that's ok....and those fan artist still suck apparently despite doing the same thing years before Toriyama did it.

This is a nice story to tell to back up your claims, but it's a HUGE assumption and I'm SUPER curious if anyone's found any examples of even one single person actually being hugely hypocritical about this.

I mean, do you actually have an examples of anyone saying this? Anyone at all? Or is it just a generalization you're tossing out there? Who is this mystery person that hated blue-haired recolors in the past and has simultaneously now gone on-record again as praising the new forms? Is there a name? Who is this fan you're talking about? Name some names! (Without somehow personally attacking them, I guess...?! )

I think it's waaaaaaaaay more nuanced than you're making it out to be. And EVEN THEN, people are absolutely allowed to change their opinions! Maybe someone didn't like the design, but after seeing it in context of the film, came around to an appreciation. That's certainly likely, right?

No I don't mean just blue SSJ for instance as I've seen blue, green, white, red, etc. Recolours have been a huge part of the internet. Finding examples now is kinda tough as they're buried among all the new SSGSS stuff which further encouraged recolour forms. I also have to sort out what counts as a recolour form, and what is just a simple character recolour. Both exist. A lot of fan art now has SSGSS2, SSGSS3, SSGSS4, etc. I believe in the fan art thread a couple of examples we're posted of these designs way before the reveal, and I don't think anyone really batted much of an eye. One example I believe I at least posted some time back had a blue Goku, Green Gohan, Purple Piccolo, etc. Though Goku may have had red eyes with the blue hair...can't remember.

*Edit* here

Spoiler:

It's hard to research examples of the same people's opinions as I'd have to stalk their posts to find out if they changed their mind. Then there's singling out users which also isn't really allowed either. My basis comes from recolours generally being looked down upon (usually when done via photoshop or paint), The most popular recolour hatred is in the sonic series fanbase where they run rampant. Dragon Ball wise recolours don't come up nearly as much, so don't get nearly as bad a rep. Though I've seen my share of SSJ6's which were recoloured SSJ4's. The artstyle usually helps as a lot of recolours as I said are done via photoshop or paint. When drawn well they sometimes may get a pass simply because the artist can draw the Dragon Ball artstyle in an appealing manor.

[shinmaru]

Non Toriyama stuff is good too, the only thing I didn't like very much was GT but most of the stuff was okay.

[Doctor.]

I'm not sure how recoulors are really frowned upon when, before Battle of Gods aired, a lot of people wanted to see a golden SS4 as the Super Saiyan God.