Why so much hate for Gohan now?

[dbzfan7]

I loved Gohan going Great Saiyaman in BoG, I found it quite entertaining. In Super they replaced it with.... I don't recall Gohan doing anything worth mentioning in Super...
And that's the problem. Gohan is boring now.

Replace him with a cardboard cutout, no one will tell the difference.

Here's the cutout, and it's replicating Gohan to a T

Spoiler:

I remember that from the F thread, still funny.

Actually it's from the interesting pic's thread. I almost forgot I put it there when the whole red carpet thing was going on. I also have a picture of Tagoma in a deep shadow, which perfectly foreshadows how irrelevant and pointless he was.

[Scarlet Spider]

I loved Gohan going Great Saiyaman in BoG, I found it quite entertaining. In Super they replaced it with.... I don't recall Gohan doing anything worth mentioning in Super...
And that's the problem. Gohan is boring now.

Replace him with a cardboard cutout, no one will tell the difference.

Here's the cutout, and it's replicating Gohan to a T

This physically hurts. Does Gohan's potential even matter anymore? As of RoF he no longer has access to transforming into his Ultimate state. Does that mean he'd have to get angry again to access it?

[DBZAOTA482]

I loved Gohan going Great Saiyaman in BoG, I found it quite entertaining. In Super they replaced it with.... I don't recall Gohan doing anything worth mentioning in Super...
And that's the problem. Gohan is boring now.

Replace him with a cardboard cutout, no one will tell the difference.

Here's the cutout, and it's replicating Gohan to a T

This physically hurts. Does Gohan's potential even matter anymore? As of RoF he no longer has access to transforming into his Ultimate state. Does that mean he'd have to get angry again to access it?

Gohan doesn't have rage boost no more.

[fadeddreams5]

What is it with some of you and your wish to see all "non relevant" characters killed off? Is it part of some pseudo-masochistic wish to see Goku and Vegeta go all grim-dark, fail to resurrect everyone, become even MORE grim dark, and everything just starts being about exploding body parts like Fist of the North Star, or something? Because that's not Dragon Ball. It's not even close.

But all of this actually happened. lol

Body parts exploding --> Chiaotzu, Nappa, Cui, Dodoria, Krillin etc.

Non-relevant characters being killed off --> Piccolo and Saiyan saga (at the time, Goku felt they could not be wished back, which set a dark tone)

Grim dark --> Trunks' future.

These were the best moments in the series, or the start/catalyst of/to them

[Gyt Kaliba]

But all of this actually happened. lol

Body parts exploding --> Chiaotzu, Nappa, Cui, Dodoria, Krillin etc.

Non-relevant characters being killed off --> Piccolo and Saiyan saga (at the time, Goku felt they could not be wished back, which set a dark tone)

Grim dark --> Trunks' future.

These were the best moments in the series, or the start/catalyst of/to them

And each of those things ends up getting rectified later on. The good guys who are killed are brought back, the bad guys get paid back for their brutal nature. It's sounding more and more like you guys aren't wanting that to happen at all.

I mean, I can sympathize to the degree that it would be nice if we had actual stakes again, but just killing off all the "excess" characters you don't like is hardly raising the stakes in any shape or form.

[fadeddreams5]

But all of this actually happened. lol

Body parts exploding --> Chiaotzu, Nappa, Cui, Dodoria, Krillin etc.

Non-relevant characters being killed off --> Piccolo and Saiyan saga (at the time, Goku felt they could not be wished back, which set a dark tone)

Grim dark --> Trunks' future.

These were the best moments in the series, or the start/catalyst of/to them

And each of those things ends up getting rectified later on. The good guys who are killed are brought back, the bad guys get paid back for their brutal nature. It's sounding more and more like you guys aren't wanting that to happen at all.

I mean, I can sympathize to the degree that it would be nice if we had actual stakes again, but just killing off all the "excess" characters you don't like is hardly raising the stakes in any shape or form.

I don't want anyone to get killed off for good. But I do want the stakes, tension, and serious mode back. Less (or no) cutaway to silly gags. Even in DBZ, it was never good (i.e. cutting to Bulma being annoyed over something while the cast was fighting or Mr. Satan during the Cell games). A bleak show is not what I'm asking for, just a return to the tone and mood of late DB and most of DBZ.

Though I wouldn't mind seeing one character permanently get killed off by being murdered after already dying. A new, properly developed, character, perhaps.

[precita]

Gohan is where everyones insecurities lie. He'd be a winner if he existence in real life, he's a disappointment in the context of a show where its all about fighting and beating villains.

[NitroEX]

But all of this actually happened. lol

Body parts exploding --> Chiaotzu, Nappa, Cui, Dodoria, Krillin etc.

Non-relevant characters being killed off --> Piccolo and Saiyan saga (at the time, Goku felt they could not be wished back, which set a dark tone)

Grim dark --> Trunks' future.

These were the best moments in the series, or the start/catalyst of/to them

And each of those things ends up getting rectified later on. The good guys who are killed are brought back, the bad guys get paid back for their brutal nature. It's sounding more and more like you guys aren't wanting that to happen at all.

I mean, I can sympathize to the degree that it would be nice if we had actual stakes again, but just killing off all the "excess" characters you don't like is hardly raising the stakes in any shape or form.

Not wanting to see characters you like getting killed off is a good mindset to have from a fan perspective but it makes for shitty storytelling. I don't want to watch or read a story in which the heroes are totally safe and cozy the entire time, I want them to go through distressing situations because that's going to make me care about what's going on.

DBZ has always been it's best when the stakes are continually risen, we go from planets being in danger to the whole universe itself. If I genuinely believe the latest foe might actually kill [insert character here] and not have them be saved by Dragonballs or time travel (I'm looking at you Whis..) then I'm immediately more invested in what's going on.

Part of the reason I don't care for modern day Goku as a character is that I no longer have a reason to root for the guy. Godku is far from an underdog in most situations and even when he is I have little reason to care because of how easily his problems can be fixed. The same goes for Vegeta really, these guys both love fighting but their goals are aimless and unrelatable. Vegeta cares about protecting Bulma when it's convenient for the plot but like with Goku and Chi-chi I don't really buy their relationship as anything more than one of convenience. At least with Gohan and VIdel you know they have more of a mutual care for one another, plus throw in baby Pan, and all of a sudden I have a reason to root for him because he actually cares about and will fight to protect his family.

It's a shame the new stories don't focus more on this but I genuinely think following Gohan as the main protagonist would (still) make for better storytelling than Goku/Vegeta rivalry version 0.5. At least when Goku had a little boy to fight for he seemed more honourable, those days are unfortunately long gone though and now he just comes off as an overindulgent fighter who's too reckless for his own good. His only goal seems to be to get stronger than a God but why should I care about that when he's already as OP as it gets?

*Well I did like him in the early Buu arc when he is Great Saiyman, teaching Videl and Goten to fly etc. But when the fighting happened and he got his Ultimate power up and arrived on the scene I never got that feeling of satisfaction I did when Goku would do that (like on Namek when he arrived on the battlefield against Freeza) so I can totally understand when Toriyama said he didn't feel like Gohan could fill in the protagonist role.

It was Toriyama's failure as a storyteller that led you to not care about Gohan's triumphant return in the Buu arc, that had less to to do with Gohan being a bad character as it was Toriyama failing to make him as compelling as he could (and should) have been during the Buu arc. It's not surprising you liked him when he was interacting with other characters and going through meaning character development because that was Toriyama doing a good job. Once that plan was thrown out the window we were left with an underdeveloped hero with unresolved issues by the time the story concluded.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

It was Toriyama's failure as a storyteller that led you to not care about Gohan's triumphant return in the Buu arc, that had less to to do with Gohan being a bad character as it was Toriyama failing to make him as compelling as he could (and should) have been during the Buu arc. It's not surprising you liked him when he was interacting with other characters and going through meaning character development because that was Toriyama doing a good job. Once that plan was thrown out the window we were left with an underdeveloped hero with unresolved issues by the time the story concluded.

I disagree, what his fans want is completely different to what Toriyama intended for the character, and he has been consistent in trying to push him back further and further out of relevance to end his characterization as his retreat, but he built up Gohan too big for it to work as subtly as it did for Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Though the judgement of storytelling on Gohan actually isn't bad at all. The only problem is him being featured in again with no substance to his relevance beyond familiarity and cell-games nostalgia. He then just gets set back by nerfing instead of just dropping him. Gohan has too much power for his own good and again Toriyama wanted him nerfed. Problem is, he doesn't have a successor to distract his fans. Goten wasn't the replacement he could have been, but not to the standards fans expect. I admit though, him losing his Elder Kai boost is just sad now. He should have at least had that, being the alternative to him needing to maintain SSJ levels. I don't see how he could "forget"that, when its just his full power without SSJ...

[Gyt Kaliba]

Not wanting to see characters you like getting killed off is a good mindset to have from a fan perspective but it makes for shitty storytelling. I don't want to watch or read a story in which the heroes are totally safe and cozy the entire time, I want them to go through distressing situations because that's going to make me care about what's going on.

DBZ has always been it's best when the stakes are continually risen, we go from planets being in danger to the whole universe itself. If I genuinely believe the latest foe might actually kill [insert character here] and not have them be saved by Dragonballs or time travel (I'm looking at you Whis..) then I'm immediately more invested in what's going on.

I repeat though - I totally get that people want there to be actual stakes again. I want there to be too, so I'm not really fond of Whis and his time travel trick, since it just gives another easy way to fix things outside of the Dragon Balls, which isn't really needed - hopefully it never gets used again after this, at least for something like it was at the end of Resurrection 'F'.

How does killing off established characters and leaving them dead automatically make things better though? People (and even myself at times, just far less vocally) decry their lack of use all the time, so if they really aren't being utilized, then what would having them killed off forever accomplish? It wouldn't gain or lose anything, it would just be killing characters for the sake of killing characters.

[NitroEX]

I disagree, what his fans want is completely different to what Toriyama intended for the character, and he has been consistent in trying to push him back further and further out of relevance to end his characterization as his retreat, but he built up Gohan too big for it to work as subtly as it did for Yamcha and Tenshinhan. Though the judgement of storytelling on Gohan actually isn't bad at all. The only problem is him being featured in again with no substance to his relevance beyond familiarity and cell-games nostalgia. He then just gets set back by nerfing instead of just dropping him. Gohan has too much power for his own good and again Toriyama wanted him nerfed. Problem is, he doesn't have a successor to distract his fans. Goten wasn't the replacement he could have been, but not to the standards fans expect. I admit though, him losing his Elder Kai boost is just sad now. He should have at least had that, being the alternative to him needing to maintain SSJ levels. I don't see how he could "forget"that, when its just his full power without SSJ...

If I understand what you're saying, you think Toriyama always intended for Gohan to be a secondary character and that he was always destined to be relegated to yamcha/Tien status. If that's what you're saying then I disagree completely. There's plenty of evidence in the story itself that points to Gohan being much more than that. He was special from the moment he was introduced and remained just as much of a protagonist as Goku was until midway through the Buu arc. I don't think that sudden change in direction was the plan all along, to me it seems obvious that it was a reaction to Toriyama changing his mind suddenly (maybe his initial plans weren't working out as he intended) or perhaps it had something to do with him wanting to quit at the time.

You don't give a character a huge build up like Gohan's only to have him flounder at the end of the story with no redemption or meaningful conclusion, that's just not how stories work.

How does killing off established characters and leaving them dead automatically make things better though? People (and even myself at times, just far less vocally) decry their lack of use all the time, so if they really aren't being utilized, then what would having them killed off forever accomplish? It wouldn't gain or lose anything, it would just be killing characters for the sake of killing characters.

Well for one thing it would help solve the issue that we currently have of characters fighting over screen time. Keep in mind though that killing them off isn't the only solution, having characters like Tien and Android 17 leaving the main cast to live their own life is a good way to respectfully retire unneeded characters whilst giving them some form of finality.

Since Dragonball is primarily about fighting dangerous villains I don't see the problem in having some characters die, especially if it's in a meaningful way like sacrificing themselves for another. Future Gohan is a great example of a character's death having meaning. The way he chose to die revealed a lot about his character and in the process, elevated Trunks. If Gohan had stuck around as a mentor figure the story (and both characters) would have been worse off in my opinion.

If this series is meant to have any sort of longevity I would hope that they do try and keep things fresh by rotating the main cast and adding new characters. The only way to realistically sustain that is by pushing old ones aside who have nothing left to offer. Killing them off would at least (if done right) allow them to have one last hurrah which is preferable to fading into the background or (at worst) stealing time from characters who really need it.

[GTX]

Gohan is a bookworm in a martial artist or wrestling series. You know what is up.

[Kishido]

Gohan is a great character in my eyes...

There are only 2 problems with him... Toriyama and the Mystic form

Toriyama is handling him like s... (But well so does he with all others besides our Milli Vanilli duo
Mystic was the worst idea ever

[Truhan]

Please, it's not Toriyama who's leading his role. TOEI has pretty much opened a deal for some more Goku time, which Akira Toriyama signed, without actually contributing as much as he did through the manga. Gohan may not have been cut out for a leading role, but he's still the loveable dork who dresses up like a superhero and is at the forefront of crime fighting with Videl. To think that they have dropped out of school and are living as husband and wife... BoG didn't have this problem, and did exactly what I wanted out of him, so to hell with Dragon Ball Super! Stupid gag driven, flanderized and poorly produced show.

[Dbzk1999]

Please, it's not Toriyama who's leading his role. TOEI has pretty much opened a deal for some more Goku time, which Akira Toriyama signed, without actually contributing as much as he did through the manga. Gohan may not have been cut out for a leading role, but he's still the loveable dork who dresses up like a superhero and is at the forefront of crime fighting with Videl. To think that they have dropped out of school and are living as husband and wife... BoG didn't have this problem, and did exactly what I wanted out of him, so to hell with Dragon Ball Super! Stupid gag driven, flanderized and poorly produced show.

Where's this evidence that they dropped out of school?

[Truhan]

Please, it's not Toriyama who's leading his role. TOEI has pretty much opened a deal for some more Goku time, which Akira Toriyama signed, without actually contributing as much as he did through the manga. Gohan may not have been cut out for a leading role, but he's still the loveable dork who dresses up like a superhero and is at the forefront of crime fighting with Videl. To think that they have dropped out of school and are living as husband and wife... BoG didn't have this problem, and did exactly what I wanted out of him, so to hell with Dragon Ball Super! Stupid gag driven, flanderized and poorly produced show.

Where's this evidence that they dropped out of school?

I don't know, but hasn't it only been 6 months ever since Buu was defeated? Gohan was 16/17 and had 3 years ahead of him in high school. He's still a teen, for Christ's sake!

[fexus]

You want to know why people hate Gohan right now? Well it's because people hate jokes. People hate gags. I mean it's okay to make jokes about Yamcha because it's Yamcha. But when Toriyama does it to their favourite character, all hell breaks lose. The point here is they just want their character to be relevant in the show. Being successful in life doesn't mean shit when you can't defend yourself from a being that can tear your father apart after clashing with the god of destruction. What? You think being a dad and having moments like in the newest episode is important too? Hell no. They just want a character that is a scholar, not a so called NEEEERRRRDDDDDD and trains to be at least as stronger than Vegito by now.

Do you want to talk why people hate Videl too? Because she isn't badass and being cute is wrong when you are a martial artist in a show about fighting when the latest enemies are literal gods. You have to try at least.

[Dbzk1999]

Please, it's not Toriyama who's leading his role. TOEI has pretty much opened a deal for some more Goku time, which Akira Toriyama signed, without actually contributing as much as he did through the manga. Gohan may not have been cut out for a leading role, but he's still the loveable dork who dresses up like a superhero and is at the forefront of crime fighting with Videl. To think that they have dropped out of school and are living as husband and wife... BoG didn't have this problem, and did exactly what I wanted out of him, so to hell with Dragon Ball Super! Stupid gag driven, flanderized and poorly produced show.

Where's this evidence that they dropped out of school?

I don't know, but hasn't it only been 6 months ever since Buu was defeated? Gohan was 16/17 and had 3 years ahead of him in high school. He's still a teen, for Christ's sake!

No, all that's stated was that 6 months after Buu was defeated, the dragon balls were used to erase people's memories of Buu. The 1st episode of super takes place in an unspecified time after that

[MajinMan]

The whole "Gohan was ruined" thing is a pet peeve of mine. How was he "ruined?" All I see in comments are "Chi Chi ruined Gohan" or "I want the badass Gohan back." It's like people don't understand the character at all. Now I do want Gohan to get some action in Super, but I know that the likelihood of him catching up to Goku or Vegeta and beating a main villain are slim to none. That doesn't mean I'm going to hate him now just because he can't keep up (or doesn't want to keep up) power wise.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The whole "Gohan was ruined" thing is a pet peeve of mine. How was he "ruined?" All I see in comments are "Chi Chi ruined Gohan" or "I want the badass Gohan back." It's like people don't understand the character at all. Now I do want Gohan to get some action in Super, but I know that the likelihood of him catching up to Goku or Vegeta and beating a main villain are slim to none. That doesn't mean I'm going to hate him now just because he can't keep up (or doesn't want to keep up) power wise.

This sumps up what's wrong with his fans.