"This looks/feels like something out of AF/fanfiction"

[Ryuman]

^ did you miss my Star Wars examples? The franchise has stalled for 3 decades with tons of expanded universe material x10000 over anything DB had and yet they managed to make MANY MANY original concepts and designs and story lines and characters without looking and feeling like a fan made piece of work. Regardless of how you feel about Jar Jar, his character and race were unique.
You could have made the same argument for Star Wars a thousand times over but true creativity will typically shine though. Whether you like it or not is a different story. I guarantee I could think of at least 10 original or different designs they could have went with rather than SSB right off the top of my head.

Yes, I missed it while making my point. If you want, I'll address it now.
Gonna start off now by saying I find this point a little odd and unfair.

Not really, no one drew up SSJ for Goku until it was introduced, same with SSJ3 and SSJ4. A lot of fan creations just key off existing work rather than being fully original creations.

Well, no. It didn't exist yet. How could they? I doubt many people would've been making any designs for the Super Saiyan due a very simple reason. During the entire build-up of that arc, leading up until that very point, nothing implied that Super Saiyans were a transformation. Vegeta got hurt, became strong, thought he was a Super Saiyan. Goku turns up all healed, super strong, Vegeta contemplates whether he is a Super Saiyan. It was just a legend about a really strong Saiyan. A birthright of sorts. I question when exactly Toriyama came up with the idea of a transformation. However, it did become one, and then there was a precedent for such things. The fanfiction floodgates open.

Example Jar Jar binks type fan fiction wasn't a thing until the character and lore was created.
No one was writing horcrux lore in Harry Potter fan fiction until the concept was introduced.

I'm not a huge Star Wars person, but I assumed you mean fiction pertaining to the character and/or race of Jar Jar? A similar point then. How and why would you? You can make an original character, perhaps very easily in a series where aliens are involved. It takes a lot of investment and confidence in the things you yourself have made.
I'm going to reply to the other examples you have, here or in mind, in one go. The interest many people have in writing their own story set in an already established universe is playing around with what's already there. What they know, and specifically what they enjoy about that universe. Many people wouldn't bother with things they don't feel belong in that world they love. They might not feel like it is their place to make such additions or changes. I think many official writers who carry on the legacy of a story after others are guilty of this latter point sometimes. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with sticking to what you like. Although, I am sure there are many interesting and original pieces of DB fanfiction out there that is being ignored in this discussion.

If your new concept in a series is so uninspired and predictable or lazy that fans have already produced similar works about it, then it's probably not that original.

I don't recall reading fanfiction where Goku attains God ki and uses it to power his Super Saiyan form instead of his regular ki. Or is this on a simple basis of colour again, without any regards to context of the actual story? Besides, where Dragon Ball is concerned, there is a wealth of fan fiction for Saiyan forms. It might be impressive to come up with something that no one in the history of ever has come up with, but would that make it good in anyway? Is that the thing we value most here, above visual aesthetic and sound premise?

I guarantee I could think of at least 10 original or different designs they could have went with rather than SSB right off the top of my head.

Now you're just getting into personal preference, so I'm not sure how that could really be discussed in a meaningful way. I've personally been very surprised about the plot developments in the series as of late, and have enjoyed it.

[dbzfan7]

I would say the reason no one ever brought up Nova Shenron's design as being Toriyama-like because Toriyama never did anything that simple in the manga. Of course it was black-and-white which forced him to subvert expectations with some creativity. Even then it wasn't ALWAYS an attempt at that because that would be too predictable. Final form Freeza was the first transformation that subverted expectations but even then it was a sleek new design and not a simple variation of one of his previous forms. SSJ also subverted expectations because no one expected a new Saiyan form and, if they did, they didn't expect it to be a change in hair color and new colored aura. Prior to that every transformation was always bigger and more muscular (Max form Roshi, Oozaru, Giant Namek Piccolo, Monster Zarbon, Freeza's first two forms). That's probably why no one complained about the movie transformations that Toriyama designed (Garlic Jr, 5th form Kooler, Super 13, LSSJ Broly, and Transformed Bojack) as being "not Toriyama's style" because he has done those types of transformations many times in the manga. Even 100% Freeza was a bulkier version of his 4th form. After that, Cell had a unique design in each transformation. Dabura was known as the King of Demons and he looked like an actual devil. Buu subverted expectations because no one thought that the terrifying monster that ravaged the universe was a fat, cheerful manchild. We later found out that he was the weakest version of Buu and his next form was stronger and definitely looked more menacing. His default form without any absorption was the smallest of all so that was unexpected. Nowadays it seems like "subverting expectations" is being tossed around to excuse every simple design that's released. He wasn't always trying to do that in the manga and sometimes a character or transformation was bigger and badder than the last form. If everything is an attempt at a subversion then it's no longer unexpected and now the norm. At this point, the only thing that would catch me by surprise is if the next "SSJ White" is actually more than just a white-haired SSJ1.

Well if fanfic photoshops aren't enough, go to Dragon Ball Fanon Wiki. There you get recoloured forms for either characters or "OC's", and backstory/information behind them. So there's the minimalist designs and some story to go with it. So now they're good with loads of creativity.

[Skar]

Toei has had original characters for years, anime only characters. They could have had them change if they wanted to. They could have had these changes take the form of strictly changing colors, or only mostly changing colors. Ergo, they had the opportunity for years. That's the point. They had the opportunity to play around with colors where Toriyama did not.

Literally the entire point I'm trying to get across is that Toriyama wasn't operating within a medium of color. Now he is. That's it. I don't know how this is difficult to understand.

I do get what you're saying. Toriyama was working on a black-and-white manga and now he has the opportunity to experiment with colors and recolor previous transformations. The thing is he did contribute to the anime in filler and designed some of the movie characters so I think if he was itching to experiment with recolored transformations then he could've done that with some of those characters. I just don't think it ever crossed his mind because the King Piccolo to Cell sagas were a more serious time and the movie villains he designed were supposed to be appear tough. A recolored form could only work as a gag in my opinion so maybe the most fitting place would be an animated film about Neko Majin or some minor character in the Buu saga when he returned to his gag manga roots.

I'll be honest and say that I thought SSJ Blue was less stupid once the name was revealed. At least then I could view it as being a parody. I would like to think that within the 20 years since the manga ended that Toriyama may have seen some AF fan art or maybe someone thought it was funny and showed it to him. SSJ God subverted expectations because it had the most extravegent name for a SSJ form but ended up being the simpliest. It still was distinguishable enough from base that you tell the difference between with or without the different colored hair. SSJ Blue was just...SSJ with Blue hair named after the new hair color so it's like a "double" subversion because the name and the look were as simple as possible. In fanart, they might recolor the transformation and give it some big fancy badass name but Toriyama was being honest and called it what it is. Maybe the next SSJ White might end up being a parody of SSJ5 somehow.

Then it sounds like they weren't literal palette swaps.

I don't know but when I Googled "palette swaps" several video game characters came up. They're usually considered a cheap way in video games to fill up the roster by just slightly adjusting preexisting characters. Maybe that's the intention here? A cheap way to sell more toys by slightly adjusting a preexisting transformation .

I never said that. It also wasn't anywhere near relevant to the point I was intending to make. Toriyama has done something new for Toriyama. Toriyama is doing things he has never done before, which is playing around with color as the key means of conveying change. Toriyama is also making them for stories, where actual expectations are built up. Again, this isn't what fans with MSpaint buckets were doing on DA.

So you're saying if Malik, Toyble, Young Jiji, or any other fan comic artist decided to color their comic and have the next transformation as a recolored version of SSJ1 then that would make them more acceptable than random recolored SSJ1's on Deviantart? The only way I could accept them would be, like I said earlier, if they were presented as a joke or parody. If it wasn't meant to be a parody then I would see it as being more disappointing in an actual story than a throwaway fanart where you can view once and ignore.

Not the point. I'm saying the dragon is simple, and that Toriyama has also done things that were simple. Different degress of simple, yes. But both still simple. That's the point. Simple. Minimalist. Unexpectedly so. That's it. That isn't to say that he has only done things that were simple, but that "I expect something big...oh hey I got something less" is something that I would indeed expect to get from Toriyama.

Yes I understand what you're saying. Nova Shenron's design is only being "retroactively" attributed to Toriyama's style now that he has done the same thing. All I'm saying is that just being simple and unexpected was never enough to consider it as Toriyama's style. After SSJ God was introduced, I saw some fans joking that there's going to be a Power Rangers lineup of SSJ forms with a new color each time. That was meant as a joke because...well the only place we've seen that before was in AF fanart. I didn't hear anyone claim that they could see this as "typical Toriyama" because it seemed way too predictable and simple. That's basically the only thing that made it a surprise because barely anyone thought he would actually do it. I guess in a way that was subverting expectations because he took the obvious route that fans assumed he wouldn't take.

Edit

Well if fanfic photoshops aren't enough, go to Dragon Ball Fanon Wiki. There you get recoloured forms for either characters or "OC's", and backstory/information behind them. So there's the minimalist designs and some story to go with it. So now they're good with loads of creativity.

Yeah I used to love that place XP. Funny enough a few years ago I was browsing the AF Fanon Wiki and thinking to myself "Man if only Toriyama could come out of retirement! He would show these fools a thing or two when it comes to transformations!"

[dbzfan7]

Well if fanfic photoshops aren't enough, go to Dragon Ball Fanon Wiki. There you get recoloured forms for either characters or "OC's", and backstory/information behind them. So there's the minimalist designs and some story to go with it. So now they're good with loads of creativity.

Yeah I used to love that place XP. Funny enough a few years ago I was browsing the AF Fanon Wiki and thinking to myself "Man if only Toriyama could come out of retirement! He would show these fools a thing or two when it comes to transformations!"

And now I'm picturing Revenge of the Sith. "You were supposed to destroy the recolours, not join them!"

[TheMikado]

Well if fanfic photoshops aren't enough, go to Dragon Ball Fanon Wiki. There you get recoloured forms for either characters or "OC's", and backstory/information behind them. So there's the minimalist designs and some story to go with it. So now they're good with loads of creativity.

Yeah I used to love that place XP. Funny enough a few years ago I was browsing the AF Fanon Wiki and thinking to myself "Man if only Toriyama could come out of retirement! He would show these fools a thing or two when it comes to transformations!"

And now I'm picturing Revenge of the Sith. "You were supposed to destroy the recolours, not join them!"

Exactly! And I'm actually fine with SSG form it's when we went to SSB that I starting getting annoyed at the potential for rainbow colored Saiyans. SSB X Kaioken has not as dispelled those concerns at all. Especially since it now looks like they can stack techniques on top of SSB so I could easily see us getting a blue form of everything Vegeta and Goku did over the entirety of their DB sagas. Sigh

[MozillaVulpix]

On a random unrelated note, I'm surprised people can be shocked at lazy, uninspired forms that seem to be there just for fanservice when Dragon Ball Heroes exists. Or, heck, what game had the What-If Fusions, Budokai 2? And that came out in...2004. Sure, you might expect Toriyama to be 'better', but the truth is Dragon Ball has been throwing out fanfiction-esque ideas since the mid-2000's.

[Xeztin]

^ Xeztin, did you miss my Star Wars examples? The franchise has stalled for 3 decades with tons of expanded universe material x10000 over anything DB had and yet they managed to make MANY MANY original concepts and designs and story lines and characters without looking and feeling like a fan made piece of work. Regardless of how you feel about Jar Jar, his character and race were unique.
You could have made the same argument for Star Wars a thousand times over but true creativity will typically shine though. Whether you like it or not is a different story. I guarantee I could think of at least 10 original or different designs they could have went with rather than SSB right off the top of my head.

I'm not too sharp on Star wars. Hm.... I accept your challenge! describe me 10 different designs that isn't anything like the preceding forms that makes sense without using hair color, hair growth, or fur and tails. When I say makes sense, I mean that's plausible for a Super Saiyan design, not something random like Goku turning into a Dragon. Technically, if you color swap or use any of the examples that I listed, it won't be original. In my opinion it's hard to do, simply because the whole "Super Saiyan" thing wrote itself into a corner. If the hair got any longer it would have been silly, and since it wasn't GT he couldn't continue on pass SSJ4. If he had pulled a Luffy's "Gear" where it's completely different, people would have said it's not Super Saiyan anymore (Like they did with SSJ4). When all the transformation's (SSJ 1-3) were all drawn to be similar, I think that's where he messed up. It's not like Luffy's gears which are all different because no one expects them to be similar in any way. Then again, Toriyama thought DB was done for good at SSJ3 or he would have made the hair much shorter to make room for SSJ4 and much weaker/less strain on body.

[Zephyr]

The thing is he did contribute to the anime in filler and designed some of the movie characters so I think if he was itching to experiment with recolored transformations then he could've done that with some of those characters.

A recolored form could only work as a gag in my opinion so maybe the most fitting place would be an animated film about Neko Majin or some minor character in the Buu saga when he returned to his gag manga roots.

On one hand, I suppose that one difference is that he wasn't making them for his story back then, he was making them for someone else's story; that makes a reasonable difference here to me. On the other hand, I suppose another difference is that there've now been potentially two decades of fervent expectation being built up. Expectations were able to circulate, grow, and evolve over the course of nearly 20 years. Those are humongous expectations. Where would he take the story he made?

Those expectations got subverted. So I suppose part of the appeal is that this is a sort of meta gag, by subverting huge meta expectations. That's not to say that I wasn't expecting, or that I wouldn't have preferred, a more detailed and physically morphed pair of transformations. But I'll appreciate the ones we got for what they are in a meta sense.

I'll be honest and say that I thought SSJ Blue was less stupid once the name was revealed. At least then I could view it as being a parody. I would like to think that within the 20 years since the manga ended that Toriyama may have seen some AF fan art or maybe someone thought it was funny and showed it to him. SSJ God subverted expectations because it had the most extravegent name for a SSJ form but ended up being the simpliest. It still was distinguishable enough from base that you tell the difference between with or without the different colored hair. SSJ Blue was just...SSJ with Blue hair named after the new hair color so it's like a "double" subversion because the name and the look were as simple as possible. In fanart, they might recolor the transformation and give it some big fancy badass name but Toriyama was being honest and called it what it is. Maybe the next SSJ White might end up being a parody of SSJ5 somehow.

Pretty much all of this I agree with you on. Just two things though: I don't think it would be necessary for him to have seen AF art for this be work as a meta gag worth appreciating, and Super Saiyan Blue does have a different aura and could be differentiated without color. Certainly not to the extent as God, though. As for the White and 5, I'd love to see that, but I'd rather expect the opposite, so that worst case scenario I can be proud that I can predict things accurately.

I don't know but when I Googled "palette swaps" several video game characters came up. They're usually considered a cheap way in video games to fill up the roster by just slightly adjusting preexisting characters. Maybe that's the intention here? A cheap way to sell more toys by slightly adjusting a preexisting transformation .

From a merchandise perspective I could understand that. I think I was just getting hung up on how I define the individual words "palette" and "swap". "Palette" being a range of potential colors. "Swap" being an exchange of one thing for another. So a palette swap would be changing the range of colors available. Literally just changing the colors. Taking it to MSpaint and filling each individual piece with a different color with the bucket tool. Though I understand if there's a internet-colloquial connotation that I was unfamiliar with.

So you're saying if Malik, Toyble, Young Jiji, or any other fan comic artist decided to color their comic and have the next transformation as a recolored version of SSJ1 then that would make them more acceptable than random recolored SSJ1's on Deviantart? The only way I could accept them would be, like I said earlier, if they were presented as a joke or parody. If it wasn't meant to be a parody then I would see it as being more disappointing in an actual story than a throwaway fanart where you can view once and ignore.

I think that if expectations are set up and then subverted, then it is a gag/joke/self-parody. And I'll take anyone's gags and jokes and self-parodies for what they are, whether they're presented as such or not. Then again, I've also waited since the mid 2000's (simply when I reached the end of available original-creator-story-material; I'm aware that the original fandom has been waiting twice as long) to see where Toriyama (as the original creator) would take things. Such a topic had already been speculated for a decade by the point I started doing it. There's a certain novelty that is achieved simply by being the return of the original creator. But in terms of "creativity", I'd be willing to grant Malik and co. the same level of praise. I don't care about reading them nearly as much though.

Another thing I just thought of is that at this point, the meta level "consistently do a lot more, and then suddenly do a lot less" gag is now becoming more known, it's getting more attention, now that the original creator's done it. GT had done it before. Now that there's a lot of attention on the concept, though, most people are now desensitized to the novelty. As you said before, nobody really made that sort of argument before, and thus it stands to reason that it wasn't a popular viewpoint. Meaning not as many people noticed that pattern and learned something new (the novelty would still be there if they were exposed to it). Toriyama does this next, and it actually gets more discussion, thus more arguments are made, and the meta gag becomes more widely known and appreciated. This means that before, the novelty was still ready to be experienced on a large scale, while now that Toriyama's done it, it won't be as appreciated, because more people already know it.

If everyone already something as a joke, not as many people are likely to find it as funny if it keeps being told. So if Malik and co. did it now, it'd be less widely appreciated; too many people are aware of the meta gag. However, if Malik and co. did it before Toriyama, then it wouldn't be as widely known and expected. Now that it's known and expected, the real subversion would be to go with more classic tropes, gags, and stereotypical concepts.

All I'm saying is that just being simple and unexpected was never enough to consider it as Toriyama's style.

I think it's a common enough thing for Toriyama to do (4th form Freeza, Kid Buu, and Monaka come to mind) for it it be a recognizable part of his style, but I can understand if it's sparse to the point where you don't see it as part of his style.

Yeah I used to love that place XP. Funny enough a few years ago I was browsing the AF Fanon Wiki and thinking to myself "Man if only Toriyama could come out of retirement! He would show these fools a thing or two when it comes to transformations!"

I think that's also kinda my point. You don't get these kinds of expectations and the like from any sort of fanart. The payoff is thus that much bigger for a meta gag.

None of this is to say that Toriyama actually intended it as such. He could have indeed just been lazy as fuck. But I think that as a consequence, an accident, of this laziness, he did a hilarious thing unintentionally. Sometimes achievements can be unintentional.

[TheMikado]

^ Xeztin, did you miss my Star Wars examples? The franchise has stalled for 3 decades with tons of expanded universe material x10000 over anything DB had and yet they managed to make MANY MANY original concepts and designs and story lines and characters without looking and feeling like a fan made piece of work. Regardless of how you feel about Jar Jar, his character and race were unique.
You could have made the same argument for Star Wars a thousand times over but true creativity will typically shine though. Whether you like it or not is a different story. I guarantee I could think of at least 10 original or different designs they could have went with rather than SSB right off the top of my head.

I'm not too sharp on Star wars. Hm.... I accept your challenge! describe me 10 different designs that isn't anything like the preceding forms that makes sense without using hair color, hair growth, or fur and tails. When I say makes sense, I mean that's plausible for a Super Saiyan design, not something random like Goku turning into a Dragon. Technically, if you color swap or use any of the examples that I listed, it won't be original. In my opinion it's hard to do, simply because the whole "Super Saiyan" thing wrote itself into a corner. If the hair got any longer it would have been silly, and since it wasn't GT he couldn't continue on pass SSJ4. If he had pulled a Luffy's "Gear" where it's completely different, people would have said it's not Super Saiyan anymore (Like they did with SSJ4). When all the transformation's (SSJ 1-3) were all drawn to be similar, I think that's where he messed up. It's not like Luffy's gears which are all different because no one expects them to be similar in any way. Then again, Toriyama thought DB was done for good at SSJ3 or he would have made the hair much shorter to make room for SSJ4 and much weaker/less strain on body.

I think it's kind of silly to not build at all on previous forms, but I think I will do it as a different thread and let everyone participate.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=33836

[Ozotto]

I think this compliant/ comparison came from a few different things.

Fan art has existed probably just as long as the actual series has, and grew more popular once it ended, as people always want more.
The bad thing about fan art, is anyone is capable of making it, and although there are some very good fan fic out there.
There is even more bad fan fic out there.

The typical uncreative and unimaginative fan art is often characterized by color and palette swaps of already established characters and forms.

Coincidentally Dragon Ball Super sorta used this when designing new forms for Frieza, and Saiyan God Forms.
Which people took as a bit of a contrast from the original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

Color swaps are seen as simplistic and other connotations can be attached to that, such as "lazy" or "boring".

In short when someone says it reminds them of fan fic, it's basically something along the lines of "this isn't what I remember DBZ being like, this is too different I don't like it." Which is fair everyone can have their own tastes and opinions.

[TheMikado]

^ Z started the radically different transformation trends even through the 3 arcs although they weren't as crazy, people were genuinely kept in suspense wanting to see the new transformation. Imagine if Pokemon has evolutions which were basically just recolors of their base designs. It wouldn't have been nearly as popular by a long shot

[Skar]

On one hand, I suppose that one difference is that he wasn't making them for his story back then, he was making them for someone else's story; that makes a reasonable difference here to me. On the other hand, I suppose another difference is that there've now been potentially two decades of fervent expectation being built up. Expectations were able to circulate, grow, and evolve over the course of nearly 20 years. Those are humongous expectations. Where would he take the story he made?

I understand what you're saying here but I never really expected much from a new series of Dragonball to be honest. The Buu saga was sort of a self-parody and his only work since the manga ended was Neko Majin which was a straightup parody. I assumed anything that came after that would probably be closer to Neko Majin and the Buu saga than the Saiyan to Freeza sagas.

That being said, I still hated SSJ Blue though. I only said that I was hoping it was a gag as an excuse for such a ridiculed fan concept being used and praised in the official continuation. It's the same way I like to think that RoF was a parody of the cliche revenge fanfics. I would've been fine with SSJ God being the final transformation. Something like Goku absorbs the ki into his base and masters SSJ God so that he can transform back into it and train it from there. SSJ Blue feels like a cheap way to have more transformations by reusing the old forms and recoloring them.

I think that if expectations are set up and then subverted, then it is a gag/joke/self-parody. And I'll take anyone's gags and jokes and self-parodies for what they are, whether they're presented as such or not. Then again, I've also waited since the mid 2000's (simply when I reached the end of available original-creator-story-material; I'm aware that the original fandom has been waiting twice as long) to see where Toriyama (as the original creator) would take things. Such a topic had already been speculated for a decade by the point I started doing it. There's a certain novelty that is achieved simply by being the return of the original creator. But in terms of "creativity", I'd be willing to grant Malik and co. the same level of praise. I don't care about reading them nearly as much though.

It sounds here that you prefer the joke behind the transformation rather than the transformation itself. I could understand that. I thought it was funny that Freeza chose the color yellow to mock the SSJ form even though I hated Golden Freeza. I didn't consider it a brilliant enough move that it was worth sacrificing his transformation just to make that joke but to each their own. To me it's still equivalent to AF fanart but it's AF fanart meant to be a joke.

Another thing I just thought of is that at this point, the meta level "consistently do a lot more, and then suddenly do a lot less" gag is now becoming more known, it's getting more attention, now that the original creator's done it.

Well Toriyama has done this before. The difference here is that the "suddenly doing a lot less" part involved more than just changing the color or shading. If SSJ had the same exact hairstyle as base but with whited-out hair and 4th form Freeza was just first form Freeza shaded in or something then that would be the same level as Toriyama's new style. If that was done in the manga then I think someone definitely would've made the connection with Nova Shenron.

None of this is to say that Toriyama actually intended it as such. He could have indeed just been lazy as fuck. But I think that as a consequence, an accident, of this laziness, he did a hilarious thing unintentionally. Sometimes achievements can be unintentional.

Well that's something we can definitely agree on . I don't think Toriyama is necessarily lazy but it's been 20 years and he's in his 60's now so I don't expect him to be the same artist he was back then. I think it's the same with any artist or writer as they age.

[Zephyr]

I never really expected much from a new series of Dragonball to be honest. The Buu saga was sort of a self-parody and his only work since the manga ended was Neko Majin which was a straightup parody. I assumed anything that came after that would probably be closer to Neko Majin and the Buu saga than the Saiyan to Freeza sagas.

That's a pretty fair point. Didn't really see anything about Neko Majin until a bit after I discovered DaizEx, during the late 2000's. Even then, I don't think that it really impressed upon me how Toriyama's overall style would have changed. Likewise, I didn't realize exactly how overall silly the Buu arc was until after discussing it a bit around these parts. Though in all fairness, Buu did more than its fair share of crazy, serious, over the top moments, concepts, and designs (Super Saiyan 3, fusion, human extinction, and Earth getting blown up). Point being that I don't think I would have expected a new series to be focused on humor and gags, for whatever reason.

It sounds here that you prefer the joke behind the transformation rather than the transformation itself. I could understand that. I thought it was funny that Freeza chose the color yellow to mock the SSJ form

Yeah, I think my mindset is something sort of like this. In and of itself I don't think Blue is amazing or anything. I think it's acceptable, but I know I would have been hoping for more before it was revealed. Then again, I'm mostly just happy that we're getting more Dragon Ball from Toriyama in the first place, regardless of what it takes the form of. I've wanted to see what he would do for a long time, and I'll accept it for what it is. Beggars can't be choosers.

If...4th form Freeza was just first form Freeza shaded in or something then that would be the same level as Toriyama's new style.

Well, again, to be fair, with Golden Freeza, you can tell the difference between the two forms through lineart alone, so I don't think it's quite on that level. It's certainly close, but not exactly the same.

I don't think Toriyama is necessarily lazy but it's been 20 years and he's in his 60's now so I don't expect him to be the same artist he was back then. I think it's the same with any artist or writer as they age.

I'm not sure. I mean, the transformations are one thing, but Beerus, Whis, Jaco, the Galactic King, Tagoma, Sorbet, Shisami, Botamo, Magetta, and Hit all feel uniquely inspired. I almost feel as if Toriyama may have wanted to be minimalistic with the transformation designs because it's still at the cusp of a DB revival, which is to say that it's still in the first few years of it. I could understand if he wants to introduce new transformations, but also keep the characters as recognizable as possible. I don't think that laziness would necessitate minimalist designs. Were he indeed browsing Dragon Ball fanart online, he could have also ripped off a more detailed one and then just drawn that. He could just lazily keep adding spikes or something like that, as well.

[Faustus]

It sounds here that you prefer the joke behind the transformation rather than the transformation itself.

This is sort of where I fall, but why would "the joke" behind the transformation, as you say (I'd argue not behind but of the transformation), not be part of the "transformation itself"?

[Zephyr]

It sounds here that you prefer the joke behind the transformation rather than the transformation itself.

This is sort of where I fall, but why would "the joke" behind the transformation, as you say (I'd argue not behind but of the transformation), not be part of the "transformation itself"?

I think that the difference would be the context surrounding the transformation compared to the aesthetic qualities of the transformation.

[Mewzard]

Were any of the "SSJ Grade/USSJ/FPSSJ" forms really so different from SSJ1 compared to Golden Freeza and Godku from their prior forms? What about SSJ2? Did the slight hair change and electricity really make that much more of a difference from SSJ1?

Say what you will about Golden Freeza, but there are changes beyond the color (though even then the color isn't an exact fill tool change, as the hands, feet, and face are purple, the main torso, head, and arm/leg armor is gold, while the rest is a darker color). The purple jewel-like objects on Golden Freeza's arm/leg armor-looking portions changed shape, the shoulder ones are completely gone, at the waist the skin protrudes like they were pants, and the region above the eyes protrudes out a decent bit.

Definitely more than a light palette swap.

Whether something "looks/feels like something out of AF/fanfiction" is really up to the person at hand's views on things.

For the matter of Super spoilers:

Spoiler:

If a fan were to do Super Saiyan Blue plus Kaio-Ken before Super did, I picture they would have combined the two aura colors to make a functional Super Saiyan Violet, or just make it pure red like the Otherworld Tournament did with Super Kaio-Ken.

Sometimes I think people are a bit too harsh to Toriyama's new designs and not critical enough of his old ones in this regard. Honestly, they're all a lot closer together in being slight changes than people tend to give credit.

[MLapan]

Can someone explain to me what these sort of complaints are actually supposed to mean?

I see them lobbed at things that people seem to just not like. Some people think that minimalistic designs like Golden Freeza or Super Saiyan God are just "fanfiction" crap. Other people think super-detailed things like Cold's 6th form in DBM are "like something out of AF".

Story idea that's been done a million times? Some people think it's just fanfiction tier garbage. Something that's never been done, and feels like something Toriyama wouldn't do? Fanfiction tier garbage.

There doesn't seem to be any consistent rhyme of reason motivating the label, and I need help seeing if there's anything beyond "I don't like this and I'm too lazy to bother articulating why!".

It means that a lot of Toriyama's new stuff is very poorly written. A lot of it doesn't make sense (i.e. Gine, Dr Gero's reason for creating Android 16, all of DBMinus) and/or contradicts the original manga too much (i.e. Vegeta's brother, Bulma's sister, Freeza knowing about Majin Buu and Beerus, Freeza reaching SSJGod level in 4 months). I do not want blatant fan-service like Xicor, Hanasia and King Cold from DBM, SSJ5, 6, etc but I also do not want to see stories and characters that insult my intelligence.

It seems to me that Toriyama doesn't understand that most DB/Z fans are not children anymore. We do not want to see nonsense that not even a 12 y/o kid would believe. And yes, I know that DB/Z has always been for children, but compare Toriyama's work from 1984 - 1995 to his work now. The quality of his writing and storytelling has declined dramatically. I can't defend or rationalize Toriyama's bad decisions anymore. I can no longer say that at least Toriyama didn't do anything as bad as the Garlic Jr Saga, DBZ movie 4, or DBGT. And that's a shame.

[Lord Beerus]

It seems to me that Toriyama doesn't understand that most DB/Z fans are not children anymore. We do not want to see nonsense that not even a 12 y/o kid would believe.

It doesn't matter what era certain Dragon Ball provides content, it's main target audience will always be children.

[fadeddreams5]

Something I see that always triggers the "that's so 'fanfictiony'" response is an old enemy returning. This was especially prevalent when Resurrection F was announced. I, on the other hand, was very excited about Frieza being revived.

I suppose this response is due to the fear of lack of creativity since, apparently, people believe this is done for the sake of servicing fans, which is the case in a lot of fanfictions by fans who add them to their stories simply because they like them. What people seem to fail to understand is that the creativity lies in the story and how the characters are used, not in the characters themselves (e.g. who cares about Uub finally being reintroduced if he's just going to stay in the background cheering Goku?). New characters can be introduced, and the stories can be more uninspired and unimaginative than if an old enemy resurfaces.

Old enemy, new enemy. It doesn't matter because at the end of the day, we're getting a new story, regardless. How that story unfolds is the principle thing to consider.

[TheMikado]

^

The problem is we've seen Toriyama bring back old enemies and concepts in unique ways. We have precedence for it even within Dragonball Z or Super itself with Emperor Pilaf.

After the Frieza saga Frieza briefly returns as mecha Frieza. Something that we wouldn't have thought of but which the previous arc made a point of showing us Frieza armies advanced rejuvenation technology.

The Cell saga wasn't even about Cell, it was about Dr. Gero, a repeat enemy who was completely different as he had not only made several unique new creations but had turned himself into an android himself and became a lead in to a large Cell arc storyline. In addition he just decide 6 months ago that he was going to build these androids. He had apparently been working on it for decades. This is a correct and novel way to bring back an old enemy and not have the story even revolve around him.

Golden Frieza by contrast gets revived and trains for a few months and Ginyu makes a return without adding much to the story other than showing off SSJ with blue hair. Long time fans who expected something more a kin to a great lead in or tie in to a more interesting narrative were let down. The whole thing is presented like "oh, and this also happened" there were literally zero consequences from that arc which were addressed in the following arcs. No one was dead, no one was mental broken, nothing. It's just not what many fans were expected. You can make the argument that it's different now which is fine but it like the "new" Coke thing. Why would we like it if is has the same brand name but tastes different, we never liked it for the name stamped on it we liked it for its content. For many people Super feels like a cheap knockoff fan fiction of one of their favorite series and you can say these feelings aren't justified, because because the show is actually very different then even Z in many respects.