Contentious Debates: Evidence of Worse Writing post-Namek?

[Zephyr]

I've noticed that after the Namek arc, every arc seems to have at least one huge point of disagreement. This may just be selective memory, but it seems like the most contentious debates within the fandom revolve around disagreement about what's actually going on, at various points in the story.

The ones that come to mind are "How does time travel actually work?", "Was Gohan OOC during the Cell Games?", "What form was Gohan against Dabura?", "Which Buu is the strongest?", and most recently "How strong are base Goku and Vegeta after Battle of Gods?".

Are there other ones this significant and divisive during or prior to Namek that I'm forgetting? And if not, do you think that this helps illustrate a strict decrease in the quality of Toriyama's writing after the Namek arc? I believe that it does show an increased sloppiness in Toriyama's writing if fans can no longer completely agree on what is there in front of them, to the point of hostility.

[ekrolo2]

The late Namek arc starts a couple of trends Toriyama runs into the ground later on.

Transformations, they were present before this but Freeza's antics with them is what causes the current trend we have where everything power wise concerns what form someone is or is not using.

Character stupidity, dear God. Okay, in the Saiyan Saga, when shit gets real, everyone drops this "warrior honor" BS and does whatever it takes to drop Nappa and Vegeta. This continues on into Namek until they just suddenly stop doing it... for no good reason. Seriously, why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

It doesn't do them nearly as bad as the Cell arc does, an arc that hinges on everyone being the stupidest cabal of morons across multiple timelines but it is in some ways the father of Toriyama's worst trends going forward.

[sintzu]

The 1st 3 questions that fans debate over were pretty clear in the manga so I don't know why they exist.

After BOG we have no idea where anyone stands compared to one another due to them telling us something different in every few episode.

In terms of Toriyama's writing I think it was overall contestant throughout the whole manga but after BOG it's become a complete mess.

[MozillaVulpix]

I mean, the fact that Toriyama's writing quality goes down post-Namek isn't even a point of debate. There's a lot of evidence for it. On the other hand, earlier arcs didn't seem to have nearly as much editorial meddling (in the case of the Androids) or as little editorial meddling (in the case of Boo). From the start of earlier arcs, it was pretty clear where they were going to go. The arrival of Future Trunks and Gohan's Great Saiyaman adventures? Not so much. Which probably explains why the writing quality went downhill.

[ABED]

Why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

Yes, because it's JUST that easy. Freeza wouldn't have been able to stop, dodge, or turn it against our heroes?

It doesn't do them nearly as bad as the Cell arc does, an arc that hinges on everyone being the stupidest cabal of morons across multiple timelines but it is in some ways the father of Toriyama's worst trends going forward.

They aren't stupid. Stupid is not doing the obvious thing to achieve one's ends. Goku's goal was never to stop the Cyborgs before they are activated. Reckless? Yes. Stupid? No.

I do wish they all had learned a lesson from that, but they weren't stupid.

[Boo Machine]

One problem I had with the writing of the Android/Cell arc was Gohan.

It was a cool moment for him to beat Cell and all , but I always had a problem with him just standing on the sidelines the whole arc until he is suddenly the hero because Goku says so.

We don't even see his Rage boost/ mass potential, that was being shown off almost all the time in the Saiyan/ Namek arcs, the entire time the androids and Cell were around. Save for the the last moment where he goes SS 2.

[PsionicWarrior]

Seriously, why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

Because they were completely helpless?

[DemonRin]

The introduction of specific Battle Power Ratings via Scouters was one of the single biggest mistakes in the manga. I honestly feel it was born of lazy writing, and it happened in the Saiyan arc.

One of the most contentious debates in the entire fanbase has been "What is ________'s Power Level? at this point in the series". Pretty sure it's caused some of the biggest debates and fights by like a wide margin.

it all stemmed from an easy way to be able to have the villains say "I'm more powerful than you!" and give it weight without having to necessarily show them being more powerful.

There's also more minor things that I'm sure sparked conversation like: Where Did Vegeta's Tail Go after Yajirobe cut it off?

Goku's and Gohan's kept growing back after getting cut off, and it was stated that Kami removed Goku's tail during the timeskip before the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and specifically that is why it stops growing back. It makes sense that they'd do that to Gohan, I'm sure he wouldn't object, but Vegeta would NOT let them take his tail willingly.... so.... what happened to it?.... why did it disappear and NEVER come back?! We never got so much as a line that "Oh, only your baby tail grows back. When your Adult tail grows in at like, 20, it never grows back if it gets cut off" or anything dumb like that.

Toriyama was just a slapdash writer through and through. I definitely think the fact that he had a more lenient editor during the Boo arc may have contributed to a slight lack of focus, but I don't think Toriyama got to be any better or worse of a writer as a result.

I mean, the fact that Toriyama's writing quality goes down post-Namek isn't even a point of debate. There's a lot of evidence for it. On the other hand, earlier arcs didn't seem to have nearly as much editorial meddling (in the case of the Androids) or as little editorial meddling (in the case of Boo). From the start of earlier arcs, it was pretty clear where they were going to go. The arrival of Future Trunks and Gohan's Great Saiyaman adventures? Not so much. Which probably explains why the writing quality went downhill.

Not really.... no.... The Cell arc didn't have any more or less influence from his actual editor than any of the other arcs before it. The major "Meddling" that gets brought up is that Toriyama's friend and FORMER editor called him up at one point and gave his opinion on the villains, and Toriyama took the criticism into consideration. His ACTUAL editor had way fewer problems in that regard. The guy who lobbed the criticisms didn't actually have any real power over Toriyama at the time other than Toriyama respecting his opinion.

[precita]

The writing remained relatively consistent throughout the entire span of DBZ.

The reason you see people complaining is because the series didn't move in the direction they wanted it to, or disagreed with the handling of characters. That's not bad writing, its that a series can't cater to every whim of the fanbase.

[MozillaVulpix]

Not really.... no.... The Cell arc didn't have any more or less influence from his actual editor than any of the other arcs before it. The major "Meddling" that gets brought up is that Toriyama's friend and FORMER editor called him up at one point and gave his opinion on the villains, and Toriyama took the criticism into consideration. His ACTUAL editor had way fewer problems in that regard. The guy who lobbed the criticisms didn't actually have any real power over Toriyama at the time other than Toriyama respecting his opinion.

It's still having someone convincing him to change major villains, which is a kind of a big deal. And didn't his actual editor make Toriyama speed through the 2nd-form Cell sections? Makes you wonder how he would have absorbed 18 if Toriyama wanted to drag it out a bit longer. At the very least, you'd think it would mean Vegeta would be using some more common sense.

[sintzu]

In terms of Toriyama's writing I think it was overall contestant throughout the whole manga but after BOG it's become a complete mess.

I meant to say consistent.

There's a lot of evidence for it. On the other hand, earlier arcs didn't seem to have nearly as much editorial meddling (in the case of the Androids).

I don't know what he was planning so I can't say for sure but I don't think him continuing with the 2 androids as the main villains would've been the best idea.

They don't look and feel like main villain material, having them be the main villains would be like Zarbon and Dodoria being the main Namek villains instead of Freeza.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Seriously, why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

Because they were completely helpless?

Not when Piccolo shows up and is about dead even with Freeza. That was their best chance to pull that off.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Seriously, why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

Because they were completely helpless?

Not when Piccolo shows up and is about dead even with Freeza. That was their best chance to pull that off.

Piccolo thought he could win on his own though, not knowing about Freeza's further transformations.

[Ringworm128]

I say more "bold" writing. The Z era was when Toriyama heavily expanded the law of DB, new races, new attacks new characters time travel and all new concepts were brought into DB during the Z portion. Even if it's a bit wonky the fact that they dared to ad some new things makes it more interesting IMO.

[ABED]

Not really.... no.... The Cell arc didn't have any more or less influence from his actual editor than any of the other arcs before it. The major "Meddling" that gets brought up is that Toriyama's friend and FORMER editor called him up at one point and gave his opinion on the villains, and Toriyama took the criticism into consideration. His ACTUAL editor had way fewer problems in that regard. The guy who lobbed the criticisms didn't actually have any real power over Toriyama at the time other than Toriyama respecting his opinion.

It's still having someone convincing him to change major villains, which is a kind of a big deal. And didn't his actual editor make Toriyama speed through the 2nd-form Cell sections? Makes you wonder how he would have absorbed 18 if Toriyama wanted to drag it out a bit longer. At the very least, you'd think it would mean Vegeta would be using some more common sense.

It's a big deal, but not a negative. Most people take advice from the people they trust. No one would've known this to be the case had no one said anything.

[ekrolo2]

Why doesn't Piccolo wrap his arm around Freeza and have Krillin slice his head off with a Kienzan? Why's everyone just sitting on the sidelines doing absolutely nothing until they conveniently stop to?

Yes, because it's JUST that easy. Freeza wouldn't have been able to stop, dodge, or turn it against our heroes?

Given that Piccolo is actually somewhat stronger than Freeza, if he just went all out from the start and planned things out better, the fight would've been a total non-issue. Hell, they thought Goku could handle Vegeta on Earth and that would've backfired horribly if they hadn't decided to back him up.

It doesn't do them nearly as bad as the Cell arc does, an arc that hinges on everyone being the stupidest cabal of morons across multiple timelines but it is in some ways the father of Toriyama's worst trends going forward.

They aren't stupid. Stupid is not doing the obvious thing to achieve one's ends. Goku's goal was never to stop the Cyborgs before they are activated. Reckless? Yes. Stupid? No.

I do wish they all had learned a lesson from that, but they weren't stupid.[/quote]

You're given the where, how and why the apocalypse happens and have the means to stop it easily, you don't do it? You're an idiot who deserves to suffer and die. Goku and Vegeta? Fine, they're Saiyan assholes who don't care about anyone or anything, whats the others excuse? They all died or suffered terribly recently and yet they're all just as eager to send themselves to oblivion becasuse fucking Goku needs something to help give him a fighting boner? They're idiots, especially so since Bulma blatantly points it out to them and they don't listen to her.

A writing situation that could've been avoided if Toriyama just dropped the time travel angle entirely and just had the Androids & Cell appear as a new, sudden threat along with the heart virus.

[sintzu]

I say more "bold" writing. The Z era was when Toriyama heavily expanded the law of DB, new races, new attacks new characters time travel and all new concepts were brought into DB during the Z portion. Even if it's a bit wonky the fact that they dared to ad some new things makes it more interesting IMO.

That's also when he stopped completely focusing on Goku and gave the others more screen time and important roles.

He also put Goku's character in the back in favor of developing Gohan and Vegeta.

[ABED]

They'are always facing some sort of Apocalypse and it's not stupid if their aim isn't to stop it. They want a fight.

A writing situation that could've been avoided if Toriyama just dropped the time travel angle entirely and just had the Androids & Cell appear as a new, sudden threat along with the heart virus.

He didn't back himself into a corner, the characters were acting in character and despite not being Saiyans, characters like Piccolo and Tenshinhan also love a good fight.

Given that Piccolo is actually somewhat stronger than Freeza, if he just went all out from the start and planned things out better, the fight would've been a total non-issue. Hell, they thought Goku could handle Vegeta on Earth and that would've backfired horribly if they hadn't decided to back him up.

At most, they were even. I hate when people come up with these scenarios. Freeza isn't the type to be taken down by something like that. Other than Piccolo, Freeza was FAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR stronger than anyone else.

That's also when he stopped completely focusing on Goku and gave the others more screen time and important roles.

He also put Goku's character in the back in favor of developing Gohan and Vegeta.

But as we saw in Dragon Ball, those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Goku doesn't have to constantly be sidelined (it's obnoxious how he's constantly sidelined in every arc, twice in the Freeza arc) in order for others to get developed.

[sintzu]

Goku doesn't have to constantly be sidelined in order for others to get developed.

In the original DB he was always in the spotlight even when a scene was focused on someone else but being sidelined in Z gave the opportunity to have multiple main characters instead of just one cause the focus kept completely switching from one to another which rarely happened in the original DB.

[ekrolo2]

Goku doesn't have to constantly be sidelined in order for others to get developed.

In the original DB he was always in the spotlight even when a scene was focused on someone else but being sidelined in Z gave the opportunity to have multiple main characters instead of just one cause the focus kept completely switching from one to another which rarely happened in the original DB.

This is very true, the other characters do contribute to the story in the pre-Z stuff but given the focus say Krillin and Bulma get later on, it's kind of startling to see how they aren't really that more important than Yamcha or Tien are until Z where Toriyama kind of saves them from falling completely to the side like most of the other human characters.