Dragonball Z was not that good in the beginning..

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I agree that Raditz could have been 10 times better. It isn't bad by any circumstance.

[Soppa Saia People]

Do you think the manga was too fast?

I know you weren't asking me but, yes, I do think it was a bit fast. I think MistareFusion (Gaffer Tape) said that in his Dragon Ball Dissection as well. We don't really see enough of Gohan's training or his development in the manga. It kinda leaves you wondering what happened. The anime filled in these blanks wonderfully in my opinion.

I think the Manga doesn't show enough, the pacing is fine. I agree with ABED that the Kai version is to fast.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I agree that Raditz could have been 10 times better. It isn't bad by any circumstance.

Raditz did his job though, a tease of what's come. I really wouldn't change anything about him or what happened.

[Friezacooler]

People that hate the pacing of DBZ and near releastic consistency would proply praise super for it's tom and Jerry antics or illogical fangirl powerscaling.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I agree that Raditz could have been 10 times better. It isn't bad by any circumstance.

Raditz did his job though, a tease of what's come. I really wouldn't change anything about him or what happened.

He was Goku's brother. That may not be gold, but it's at least copper. Toriyama squandered some great potential here.

[ABED]

I don't think Kai fixed the pacing. It went in the opposite direction, it went too fast.

Do you think the manga was too fast?

In a number of places, yes. In the Saiyan arc, a lot is asked of the audience when Gohan is given so much focus. We're supposed to care, but without spending that much time with such a new character, it's not as compelling when anything good or bad happens to him.

He was Goku's brother. That may not be gold, but it's at least copper. Toriyama squandered some great potential here.

Yeah, they are related, but that's not by choice.

but instead totally obvious padding and a crutch to keep the overall story behind the manga by a certain margin (with the final Freeza battle's whole "Five Minutes" portion easily and without question being by far and away the single most over the top egregious, easy to point to, and just downright hateful in its awfulness, not to mention pointless, tiresomely repetitive shenanigans with Mr. Satan's entourage in the Cell Games).

The five minute issue doesn't bother me that much. I didn't literally want it to be over in five minutes. I would have prefered that Freeza be vague about how long the planet has left. And Mr. Satan, it did get repetitive, but a few of them were funny. The biggest problems I have aren't those things, but when they cut away from the action to have a character literally say what we just saw on screen. It's like commentary for the blind.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't think Kai fixed the pacing. It went in the opposite direction, it went too fast.

Do you think the manga was too fast?

In a number of places, yes. In the Saiyan arc, a lot is asked of the audience when Gohan is given so much focus. We're supposed to care, but without spending that much time with such a new character, it's not as compelling when anything good or bad happens to him.

He was Goku's brother. That may not be gold, but it's at least copper. Toriyama squandered some great potential here.

Yeah, they are related, but that's not by choice.

Umm... No? Toriyama definitely chose to make them brothers, he could've done more with them, your refutation is invalid

[ABED]

No, I mean the characters didn't choose to be brothers. That fact isn't really all that big of a deal to Goku. I fail to see how there's so much potential there just because they happen to share genetic material.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No, I mean the characters didn't choose to be brothers. That fact isn't really all that big of a deal to Goku. I fail to see how there's so much potential there just because they happen to share genetic material.

It doesn't matter if they chose to be brothers, that's totally besides the point. Do you know how siblings work? I know it's not a big deal to Goku, it doesn't even need to be. That's like saying that Goku has to care that Black looks just like him, or the Black doesn't work as a character.

Take Bardock as an example. He has his own, unique personality and motivations. You feel sympathetic for him, even though he's really a piece of garbage. When he did meet his end, it was at the hands of the ultimate villain, and it set up Goku's battle with Freeza. A great character by Toei!

Raditz: Comes to Earth, kills a farmer, captures a 4 year old, dies. He was just a catalyst for 2 other random dudes to show up and become the villains. The worst part, he could have easily won if he hadn't been carrying the idiot ball for the entire fight. Bad character by Toriyama.

Raditz should have been more like Tullece; An interesting, competent villain with realistic* (for lack of a better term) goals. Another fantastic character by Toei!

[Bansho64]

Raditz should have been more like Tullece; An interesting, competent villain with realistic* (for lack of a better term) goals. Another fantastic character by Toei!

But that's not who Raditz is. He's supposed to be incompetent. Yes, he made bad decisions. He was just a simple Saiyan following orders. Nothing else. All of his actions were consistent with his character and he did have realistic goals for a Saiyan. He wanted to bring back Goku to fight with him, Vegeta, and Nappa. So that he could grow stronger with more forces. How is that bad? He's the one person in Goku's family who doesn't have any complex motives because he's just an ordinary Saiyan. Nothing really major happened for him to change or even need to. I don't know how that makes him a bad character.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Raditz should have been more like Tullece; An interesting, competent villain with realistic* (for lack of a better term) goals. Another fantastic character by Toei!

But that's not who Raditz is. He's supposed to be incompetent. Yes, he made bad decisions. He was just a simple Saiyan following orders. Nothing else. All of his actions were consistent with his character and he did have realistic goals for a Saiyan. He wanted to bring back Goku to fight with him, Vegeta, and Nappa. So that he could grow stronger with more forces. How is that bad? He's the one person in Goku's family who doesn't have any complex motives because he's just an ordinary Saiyan. Nothing really major happened for him to change or even need to. I don't know how that makes him a bad character.

He supposed to be? Was it some inherent force of nature? No, you've totally missed the point.

I recognize that that's how it was, I'm saying that it should have been different. You're just describing how it already is as a refutation.

I'm not saying it's bad, just that it was a missed opportunity. Even having Raditz and Nappa switch roles would be an improvement. As things stand, all 3 of these characters are just typical Saiyans.

[Bansho64]

He supposed to be? Was it some inherent force of nature? No, you've totally missed the point.

I recognize that that's how it was, I'm saying that it should have been different. You're just describing how it already is as a refutation.

And why should it have been different? The character served his purpose and introduced two new villains. I'm still not getting what so wrong with Raditz

[Jinzoningen MULE]

He supposed to be? Was it some inherent force of nature? No, you've totally missed the point.

I recognize that that's how it was, I'm saying that it should have been different. You're just describing how it already is as a refutation.

And why should it have been different? The character served his purpose and introduced two new villains. I'm still not getting what so wrong with Raditz

Oh my lord... this is painful.

I never said that it "should be different". I said it would have been better.

Edit: Once again, I might add, totally missing the point.

[Bansho64]

Oh my lord... this is painful.

I never said that it "should be different". I said it would have been better.

Edit: Once again, I might add, totally missing the point.

I apologize if I'm making this conversation so painful for you. I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint
Also, yes,

He supposed to be? Was it some inherent force of nature? No, you've totally missed the point.

I recognize that that's how it was, I'm saying that it should have been different. You're just describing how it already is as a refutation.

You did say it should've been different.

[Anime Kitten]

Oh my lord... this is painful.
I never said that it "should be different". I said it would have been better.
Edit: Once again, I might add, totally missing the point.

You're not making any sense and your arguments are baseless. Could you explain what your point is in this discussion? Please and thank you.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Oh my lord... this is painful.
I never said that it "should be different". I said it would have been better.
Edit: Once again, I might add, totally missing the point.

You're not making any sense and your arguments are baseless. Could you explain what your point is in this discussion? Please and thank you.

It makes sense if you try reading it. I'm not arguing what is or isn't, I'm saying that a storytelling device could have been used better.

[Anime Kitten]

It makes sense if you try reading it. I'm not arguing what is or isn't, I'm saying that a storytelling device could have been used better.

I did read it, several times. I just wanted to know why this was becoming so "painful" to you.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Oh my lord... this is painful.

I never said that it "should be different". I said it would have been better.

Edit: Once again, I might add, totally missing the point.

I apologize if I'm making this conversation so painful for you. I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint
Also, yes,

He supposed to be? Was it some inherent force of nature? No, you've totally missed the point.

I recognize that that's how it was, I'm saying that it should have been different. You're just describing how it already is as a refutation.

You did say it should've been different.

You're right, I retract that. Contextually, I meant that it could have been different.

The reason it's painful is because my point should be obvious to anyone familiar with any story. This is a simple mechanism that could have brought a whole new dynamic, but it was thrown away.

[ABED]

No, I mean the characters didn't choose to be brothers. That fact isn't really all that big of a deal to Goku. I fail to see how there's so much potential there just because they happen to share genetic material.

It doesn't matter if they chose to be brothers, that's totally besides the point. Do you know how siblings work? I know it's not a big deal to Goku, it doesn't even need to be. That's like saying that Goku has to care that Black looks just like him, or the Black doesn't work as a character.

Take Bardock as an example. He has his own, unique personality and motivations. You feel sympathetic for him, even though he's really a piece of garbage. When he did meet his end, it was at the hands of the ultimate villain, and it set up Goku's battle with Freeza. A great character by Toei!

Raditz: Comes to Earth, kills a farmer, captures a 4 year old, dies. He was just a catalyst for 2 other random dudes to show up and become the villains. The worst part, he could have easily won if he hadn't been carrying the idiot ball for the entire fight. Bad character by Toriyama.

Raditz should have been more like Tullece; An interesting, competent villain with realistic* (for lack of a better term) goals. Another fantastic character by Toei!

I do know how siblings work, I have an older brother, and I still fail to see your point. Raditz isn't inherently more interesting or has more potential just because he was an older brother.

People have to stop abusing the term "random". Vegeta and Nappa weren't random. Raditz was the inciting incident for the story. Villains are often undone by their own hubris. That's not idiocy. Tullece was also undone by his own hubris. Instead of finishing the job, he left Goku alone because he thought he won. Raditz' goals were unique and I don't see why they were more "realistic" than Tullece's.

[MajinMan]

I honestly think that Raditz should not have been revealed as Goku's brother. It does not serve a purpose and adds no extra drama other than "Goku's brother is an evil alien bastard omg." The fact that we never see or hear from him ever again proves that he could have just been a random Saiyan that was sent to earth by Vegeta and Nappa to recruit Goku to their squad.