GT or Super? Which one is the best?

[dbs fanboy]

I don't really have any problem with the BoG retelling, it had flaws, but it also had great stuff and nice scenes even some that were portrayed better than in the movie, also, because BoG is connected to U6 arc that is also connected to the current arc, you know, giving the series organic story telling.

Also i appreciate BoG retelling more for making Beerus look more villanious, and showing us how he destroys other worlds. Because right now, looking at Beerus's character, i realize that he really had a lot of development, and the fact that he was portrayed more in this way than in the movie, makes the change more impactful.

RoF in the other hand, not only is no connected to the story (it doesn't affect the lore/plot of the show), but the combination of bad animation overall (not inconsistent, but bad mostly with the exception of some scenes and Tate's cut) makes it awful. I mean, the BoG arc was entertaining and engaging, even after watching the movie, RoF was interesting at first and then it went downhill once the fight started (plus all the flaws before that).

[Cipher]

Ajay released a great video the other day that covers some of my misgivings with Super on an execution-level, as far as its episodic writing of Goku and handling of character development, which is another reason I can't compare it favorably to GT. These elements are simply too important to me.

And I know Goku has a few questionable beats in GT, but they don't seem to be nearly as constant. The gags involving him tend to be more about the situation caused by his tactlessness sans fully developed frontal lobes (bouncing off Pan, Trunks, etc.) rather than at his expense as they are in Super. They also rarely if ever take place during otherwise dire moments. By and large GT's Goku is consistent with where the character would be fifteen years after his hyper-bored self in the Boo arc, and after training Oob.

[TheGreatness25]

Yeah but that's the whole point: If it was exactly the same as Battle of Gods or Resurrection F, obviously there would be no point to it, but for better or worse it's different. I don't know, I like when a series includes everying in the series without asking me to check out another source to know the story.

[precita]

Its amazing how both GT and Super treat Gohan and Goten like throwaway characters, have adult Trunks used mostly for fanservice in terms of battling but then still playing second fiddle, putting way too much emphasis on Goku over everyone else, and having Krillin/Piccolo become extremely minor characters.

Why is Super handling its characters in an almost exact way GT did? About the only difference is there's no Pan yet since she's still a baby.

[TheGreatness25]

Well maybe that has to do with how Gohan and Goten are portrayed in the last episode of Z. It's not that GT ever got it wrong and Super didn't pick up the ball and run with it on those characters; that's just how the characters are destined to be.

[precita]

Goten was a pretty blank slate by the end of DBZ, and he was shown training with Goku at the start of the time skip.

Instead they stupidly turn Goten into a Gohan/Yamcha hybrid and leave him like that.

[fadeddreams5]

Well maybe that has to do with how Gohan and Goten are portrayed in the last episode of Z. It's not that GT ever got it wrong and Super didn't pick up the ball and run with it on those characters; that's just how the characters are destined to be.

Characters are only destined to be whatever their writers want them to.

At the end of DBZ, Gohan was the most powerful unfused fighter. Even in that final tournament, he had the mystic eyes, despite sitting it out. They could make him a nerd, they could leave him in the sidelines and give the spotlight to Goku/Vegeta, but to pull this "he didn't train, so now he's weaker" bs again, and have him pitifully lose every fight he's actually been in, is disrespectful to the character because it's completely contrary to his development in the Buu saga and the polar opposite of what any fan wants to see. It's hilarious the amount of backlash GT received for DECADES because of its portrayal of Gohan, only for these nimrods to do the same exact thing for Super.

/EndGohanRant

[TheGreatness25]

Gohan has the same eyes in Super and in GT. He didn't even participate. Gohan didn't care for being a fighter. Obviously he did just suddenly stop fighting out of nowhere, so Super is setng up for that perfectly. As for Goten, he had no interest in training. He seemed more interested in girls than anything.

Just because Gohan and Goten were forced into battle in DBZ doesn't mean that they were meant to be fighters. They were strong characters in Z, but in Super, there are a bunch of characters that are stronger. What's the point of even having them? Just to have them?

[ekrolo2]

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

[The Patrolman]

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

Didn't Goku in GT not no how to count and literally ate a DragonBall. Vegeta character isn't retconned. He still says that Goku is number one but that doesn't mean he isnt just going to stand there and watch him get stronger. He wants to be on the same level as him.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

Goku certainly has made quite a few question decisions that make you question his intelligence in Super but I wouldn't say that Vegeta has become a caricature of himself. He's already content that Goku is "number 1" but just wants to keep training because he doesn't want it to remain that way forever. He holds no animosity or resent towards Goku being stronger than him by the end of the Majin Boo arc and comes to terms with why that is the case to begin with. I personally don't see anything wrong with Vegeta still willing to keep up with Goku even though he ate a slice of humble and accepted Goku is the strongest. He can still strive to become much stronger while keeping healthy and friendly rivalry and relationship with Goku, and that's been the case in Super.

If you're also referring the comedic and somewhat goofy instances that Vegeta has found himself in more often in Super, I don't really see what the big deal is with that. Vegeta's already discarded his native Saiyan pride in the climax of the Majin Boo arc and this was made into a quite a potent plot point in Battle Of Gods with him throwing away his pride to entertain someone who knows is bad business happy as well as protect his family and friends and keep. Super rolled with the concept with him acting in a more exuberant manor and he came to realise that as new echelon of power was attainable. Again, he's already aware that Vegeta that very much "number 1", especially after becoming a Super Saiyan God, but he'll be damned if it stays that way forever. He's no longer influenced by wanting to surpass Goku to spite him or out of resentment and anger, like in the past, he just wants to be satisfied with knowing that he can potentially keep up with Goku.

Vegeta has displayed that he is more than willing to act outside of his comfort zone if it means he achieve something important to him, so he doesn't really find himself uncomfortable acting in a more unconventional means. It's just become another day for him when trying to take care of those who he finds close to him, as well as wanting to becomes as strong as he can be. And it situations, where that's not the case, I see it as a case of Vegeta just becoming more relaxed and laid back as he allowed himself to become most influenced by the accustoms of Earth, his family and friends. Something which again relates to the evens of the climax of the Majin Boo arc and the events of Battle Of Gods. So really, Vegeta's characterisation moulding into what is in right now is Super has been set up to varying degrees.

[Cipher]

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta's treated pretty well by Super, and his character is an area in which I might prefer it to GT. People vastly overestimate the change implied by his Boo arc speech if they think it means he's done training or trying to stay competitive with Goku, or that that would be a positive direction for his character.

GT Vegeta gets some good moments, such as his role in the ending and his line about being "an Earthling who has inherited the pride of the Saiyans," but he's almost too tame and comfortable trailing behind Goku until the events of the final arc. Super is a bit more the track I'd picture him going down after the Boo arc, and while the show still has the problem of both a protagonist and deuteragonist who don't change, Vegeta's at least been a bit more interesting and consistently written.

[ekrolo2]

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

Goku certainly has made quite a few question decisions that make you question his intelligence in Super but I wouldn't say that Vegeta has become a caricature of himself. He's already content that Goku is "number 1" but just wants to keep training because he doesn't want it to remain that way forever. He holds no animosity or resent towards Goku being stronger than him by the end of the Majin Boo arc and comes to terms with why that is the case to begin with. I personally don't see anything wrong with Vegeta still willing to keep up with Goku even though he ate a slice of humble and accepted Goku is the strongest. He can still strive to become much stronger while keeping healthy and friendly rivalry and relationship with Goku, and that's been the case in Super.

If you're also referring the comedic and somewhat goofy instances that Vegeta has found himself in more often in Super, I don't really see what the big deal is with that. Vegeta's already discarded his native Saiyan pride in the climax of the Majin Boo arc and this was made into a quite a potent plot point in Battle Of Gods with him throwing away his pride to entertain someone who knows is bad business happy as well as protect his family and friends and keep. Super rolled with the concept with him acting in a more exuberant manor and he came to realise that as new echelon of power was attainable. Again, he's already aware that Vegeta that very much "number 1", especially after becoming a Super Saiyan God, but he'll be damned if it stays that way forever. He's no longer influenced by wanting to surpass Goku to spite him or out of resentment and anger, like in the past, he just wants to be satisfied with knowing that he can potentially keep up with Goku.

Vegeta has displayed that he is more than willing to act outside of his comfort zone if it means he achieve something important to him, so he doesn't really find himself uncomfortable acting in a more unconventional means. It's just become another day for him when trying to take care of those who he finds close to him, as well as wanting to becomes as strong as he can be. And it situations, where that's not the case, I see it as a case of Vegeta just becoming more relaxed and laid back as he allowed himself to become most influenced by the accustoms of Earth, his family and friends. Something which again relates to the evens of the climax of the Majin Boo arc and the events of Battle Of Gods. So really, Vegeta's characterisation moulding into what is in right now is Super has been set up to varying degrees.

I don't care about his comedic moments and the things you mention in your last paragraph sound a lot more like what GT did where Vegeta legitimately chills the fuck out and stops giving himself a stomach ulcer over things like he did before. Battle of Gods the movie treats him very well, he's shown to throw away his pride just to save the planet and his animosity for Goku is nonexistent there, Resurrection F is where he starts acting like a whiny little bitch over Goku being stronger than him. Then when Goku combines KK, he goes "Damn you for surpassing me again!".

This isn't a Vegeta who strives to improve for its own sake like Goku does, hell Vegeta flat out says this is why Goku improves that much, he's still got that "KAKAROTTO!" shit going and it shouldn't exist anymore. GT did the right thing by eliminating this side of Vegeta entirely and having him relax in his everyday life. It might not make him the obnoxious midget all his fanboys want him to be, but I'll take it over Super's back and forth between him seemingly being kind of okay-ish with this and then going "GGGRRRRR KAKAROTO!". He's definitely treated way better than Goku, I'll admit that.

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

Didn't Goku in GT not no how to count and literally ate a DragonBall. Vegeta character isn't retconned. He still says that Goku is number one but that doesn't mean he isnt just going to stand there and watch him get stronger. He wants to be on the same level as him.

Goku in GT has his dumb moments but when he needs to act mature, he acts far better than in many instances later on in Z. He certainly never forgets important objects like Senzu Beans or the talisman. Vegeta can strive to get better all he wants, Goku shouldn't be a factor at all for him anymore, the objective is getting stronger should be. In his speech at the end of the Boo arc, that's what Vegeta realizes about why Goku improves so much, he improves for self-improvement sake, not to keep up with or beat anyone, those are just nice bonuses on the side.

[TheGreatness25]

For what it's worth, I think Vegeta's treated pretty well by Super, and his character is an area in which I might prefer it to GT. People vastly overestimate the change implied by his Boo arc speech if they think it means he's done training or trying to stay competitive with Goku, or that that would be a positive direction for his character.

GT Vegeta gets some good moments, such as his role in the ending and his line about being "an Earthling who has inherited the pride of the Saiyans," but he's almost too tame and comfortable trailing behind Goku until the events of the final arc. Super is a bit more the track I'd picture him going down after the Boo arc, and while the show still has the problem of both a protagonist and deuteragonist who don't change, Vegeta's at least been a bit more interesting and consistently written.

But the "tame" Vegeta is directly related to how he was shown at the end of Z. Yeah, he trains (he trains in GT too) and yeah, he participates in the Tenkaichi Budokai, but... he's over there wearing leather jackets and then sweatpants and whatnot. I don't think that GT Vegeta is far of a stretch.

I often find that people's gripe with how GT characters are portrayed is that it's different than how they were in the Boo arc. But GT doesn't take place after the Boo arc; GT takes place after the last episode of Z. Because the last episode of Z was supposed to be "the end," a lot of characters were kind of capped off. It was pretty much implied that everyone just kind of settled down and started leading a normal life except Goku, who will never stop trying to get better and better. When people complain about Gohan, I point them to the last episode of Z. Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, everyone is directly following the last episode of Z. Super is the in-between, so this is the series that has to show these characters starting to transition out of how they were during the Boo arc and into what they were in the last episode of Z. Pan is going to have to get really close to Goku and be this spunky, young, eager fighter; Goten will have to be like the "Agh okayyyy Dad, I'll train if you wantttt..." kid who is interested in girls; Trunks has to be a slacker in terms of training; Gohan has to stop being a fighter; and Vegeta will start having to get domesticated at some point.


Now if Super decides to get rid of the end of Z, then we can talk about other things, but the end of Z existed during GT's run and that's what it went by.

[Cipher]

But the "tame" Vegeta is directly related to how he was shown at the end of Z. Yeah, he trains (he trains in GT too) and yeah, he participates in the Tenkaichi Budokai, but... he's over there wearing leather jackets and then sweatpants and whatnot. I don't think that GT Vegeta is far of a stretch.

I often find that people's gripe with how GT characters are portrayed is that it's different than how they were in the Boo arc. But GT doesn't take place after the Boo arc; GT takes place after the last episode of Z. Because the last episode of Z was supposed to be "the end," a lot of characters were kind of capped off. It was pretty much implied that everyone just kind of settled down and started leading a normal life except Goku, who will never stop trying to get better and better. When people complain about Gohan, I point them to the last episode of Z. Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, everyone is directly following the last episode of Z. Super is the in-between, so this is the series that has to show these characters starting to transition out of how they were during the Boo arc and into what they were in the last episode of Z. Pan is going to have to get really close to Goku and be this spunky, young, eager fighter; Goten will have to be like the "Agh okayyyy Dad, I'll train if you wantttt..." kid who is interested in girls; Trunks has to be a slacker in terms of training; Gohan has to stop being a fighter; and Vegeta will start having to get domesticated at some point.

I agree on all the others (which is why Super picked such an awkward point in time to set itself in), but we know literally nothing about Vegeta in the final chapters outside of the facts that he hasn't seen Goku in a while and doesn't wear his battle armor 24/7 (which is one of Super's minor absurdities). It seemed to be implied Goku hadn't done anything extraordinary for a while too.

Anyway, I've never thought GT had a particularly bad idea of where Vegeta would wind up, and frumpy-mustache-dad came straight from Toriyama; I guess Super's more active take has just felt slightly more right since it was introduced.

Didn't Goku in GT not no how to count and literally ate a DragonBall.

The counting thing is borderline. He says he's having difficulty with the rhythm at the same time (trying to sync his counting with Pan's), but I agree it's not presented very well and could be a fair complaint against his characterization. He swallows the Dragon Ball to stop Yi Xing Long from getting it.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku isn't a pants shitting idiot and Vegeta's Boo saga character arc wasn't retconned so he too could become a caricature of himself too. Whatever virtues Super has, until it fixes its own protagonists, GT will always curb stomp it in these regards.

Goku certainly has made quite a few question decisions that make you question his intelligence in Super but I wouldn't say that Vegeta has become a caricature of himself. He's already content that Goku is "number 1" but just wants to keep training because he doesn't want it to remain that way forever. He holds no animosity or resent towards Goku being stronger than him by the end of the Majin Boo arc and comes to terms with why that is the case to begin with. I personally don't see anything wrong with Vegeta still willing to keep up with Goku even though he ate a slice of humble and accepted Goku is the strongest. He can still strive to become much stronger while keeping healthy and friendly rivalry and relationship with Goku, and that's been the case in Super.

If you're also referring the comedic and somewhat goofy instances that Vegeta has found himself in more often in Super, I don't really see what the big deal is with that. Vegeta's already discarded his native Saiyan pride in the climax of the Majin Boo arc and this was made into a quite a potent plot point in Battle Of Gods with him throwing away his pride to entertain someone who knows is bad business happy as well as protect his family and friends and keep. Super rolled with the concept with him acting in a more exuberant manor and he came to realise that as new echelon of power was attainable. Again, he's already aware that Vegeta that very much "number 1", especially after becoming a Super Saiyan God, but he'll be damned if it stays that way forever. He's no longer influenced by wanting to surpass Goku to spite him or out of resentment and anger, like in the past, he just wants to be satisfied with knowing that he can potentially keep up with Goku.

Vegeta has displayed that he is more than willing to act outside of his comfort zone if it means he achieve something important to him, so he doesn't really find himself uncomfortable acting in a more unconventional means. It's just become another day for him when trying to take care of those who he finds close to him, as well as wanting to becomes as strong as he can be. And it situations, where that's not the case, I see it as a case of Vegeta just becoming more relaxed and laid back as he allowed himself to become most influenced by the accustoms of Earth, his family and friends. Something which again relates to the evens of the climax of the Majin Boo arc and the events of Battle Of Gods. So really, Vegeta's characterisation moulding into what is in right now is Super has been set up to varying degrees.

I don't care about his comedic moments and the things you mention in your last paragraph sound a lot more like what GT did where Vegeta legitimately chills the fuck out and stops giving himself a stomach ulcer over things like he did before. Battle of Gods the movie treats him very well, he's shown to throw away his pride just to save the planet and his animosity for Goku is nonexistent there, Resurrection F is where he starts acting like a whiny little bitch over Goku being stronger than him. Then when Goku combines KK, he goes "Damn you for surpassing me again!".

This isn't a Vegeta who strives to improve for its own sake like Goku does, hell Vegeta flat out says this is why Goku improves that much, he's still got that "KAKAROTTO!" shit going and it shouldn't exist anymore. GT did the right thing by eliminating this side of Vegeta entirely and having him relax in his everyday life. It might not make him the obnoxious midget all his fanboys want him to be, but I'll take it over Super's back and forth between him seemingly being kind of okay-ish with this and then going "GGGRRRRR KAKAROTO!". He's definitely treated way better than Goku, I'll admit that.

I don't recall Vegeta acting like a whiny little bitch over Goku being stronger than him in Resurrection F. Both the movie and Super retelling. The only time I recall him complaining in either instance was in the movie where Whis mentions how Vegeta's flaws are preventing him becoming as strong as Goku and Goku giving him some light teasing him about the criticisms Whis gave him. Then they go back to training with Whis like nothing happened. I also don't recall Vegeta saying "Damn you for surpassing me again!" when Goku pulls off the SSJB/KK combination. He actually says, "Damn it. He's always surpassing me". Which would be an understandable reaction given how dangerous the Kaioken technique is when you multiple it, especially on top of another form, and Goku being able to pull it off perfectly, despite the major risks.

Plus, given the fact that Whis outright stated that Vegeta was still a step behind Goku, knowing Goku could do such a thing would naturally be a kick in the teeth for him, as for all intents and purposes Vegeta finally reached level pecking with him after training as had as he did. It's not like in the Android/Cell arc where half the time all Vegeta did was angst over Goku being stronger then him and would often do thing in spite as a reaction to Goku surpassing him. He was just annoyed more than anything that Goku will essentially always have that ace up his sleeve to keep some kind distance between himself and Vegeta. So this whole "KAKAROTTO!"/"GGGRRRRR KAKAROTO!" gimmick, which you claim is in Super, has never appeared. We've only had that one instance where Vegeta showed annoyance at how Goku managed to the impossible to become much stronger and faster than he currently is. We even have everyone else in the attendance of the tournament react in either amazement or confusion at what Goku was doing. So it's not as if what Goku was doing with the SSJB/KK deal was any basic trick someone could do. It was unique ability that really only Goku could possibly pull off.

[Cipher]

^In addition, because I didn't think to bring this up last post, we're talking about a character who is willing to literally throw his life away for a chance to avenge his pride against Goku in the Boo arc. The progress into being friendly rivals who use each other to measure their personal growth is progress indeed. He doesn't need to be completely indifferent to Goku's ability. It's just no longer the sole factor in determining his self-worth.

[Lord Beerus]

Didn't Goku in GT not no how to count and literally ate a DragonBall.

The counting thing is borderline. He says he's having difficulty with the rhythm at the same time (trying to sync his counting with Pan's), but I agree it's not presented very well and could be a fair complaint against his characterization. He swallows the Dragon Ball to stop Yi Xing Long from getting it.

He could have just cracked it with his hand. I mean, the Dragon Balls can't be that hard, right? And he was a SSJ4 at the time

[Cipher]

He could have just cracked it with his hand. I mean, the Dragon Balls can't be that hard, right? And he was a SSJ4 at the time

They needed the Dragon Balls, though. And who knows what would have happened to the negative energy surrounding Earth had one of the Dragon Balls been destroyed?

When did it become such a sin to swallow a Dragon Ball? You want to tell that to Piccolo?

[sintzu]

Super has Vegetto so that's an automatic win.