Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
kinisking wrote:Okay, I can see your point more now. I'll try to be optimistic and hope that in the unlikely chance he does become more relevant that he does get some more shining moments though.
I don't understand why he gets so much flack for his losses but when Vegeta, Piccolo or anyone else mess up it's the writers fault. I mean what has Piccolo actually done throughout the series
With Vegeta, I get cathartic pleasure in seeing him get cocky and then have his ass kicked for it. It's what makes the boring island fights in the Android arc against Cell somewhat entertaining for me. Although given how it's everyone's fault for this situation happening, I get a kick out of all the good guys getting some much deserved karmic retribution.
Vegeta also has a fairly good arc for a lot of the show and is one of the few characters to get multiple moments of apparent change rather than one and staying static for the remainder of the series. Gohan being constantly flip-flopped from worthless shit tier to failed Goku replacement doesn't do him many favors, although, Vegeta's recent retconning into being obsessed with Goku is an issue for that character as well.
And speaking as a Piccolo fan, he doesn't do jack shit after the Namek arc. It's actually comical how the only time his character makes a more personal impact on those around him or the audience is when he dies
Zeon put it best: Piccolo is Worf. He shows up, he looks cool, does some cool shit and then fails miserably. He and all of the Earthling characters with the exception of Krillin very easily could have stayed dead and I don't think we'd have lost anything of actual substance. He really has no more moments of evolution or change, even his re-uniting with Kami is little more than a temporary boost in power more than anything else.
I like vegeta but it is pretty interesting to see his ass kicked for some reason. Although I named Vegeta, I don't think he's worthless at all. That's why I get annoyed when people blame the writers for him messing up because honestly he doesn't even do it that much. He gets a lot of attention and wins quite often.
And well at least you admit that Piccolo hasn't done much although that makes it stranger that you consider Gohan shit tier for doing the same things Piccolo does.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity. And sincewe're discussing Gohan in general, I gotta say that I like them. I relate to him the best, form the best emotional connections with his character, and he's pretty cool from time to time on top of that. I don't really think hard, long, and analyze flaws like I do Goku because I don't see them as that big. Yeah, he's messed up, but I see them as mess ups that I can relate to. It's weird. Anyways, he's my favorite character and I wish he was in this arc..
kinisking wrote:I like vegeta but it is pretty interesting to see his ass kicked for some reason. Although I named Vegeta, I don't think he's worthless at all. That's why I get annoyed when people blame the writers for him messing up because honestly he doesn't even do it that much. He gets a lot of attention and wins quite often.
And well at least you admit that Piccolo hasn't done much although that makes it stranger that you consider Gohan shit tier for doing the same things Piccolo does.
Vegeta and to a far lesser extent, Piccolo both kind of get away with a lot of crap because they managed to strike a cord with me at one point or another. Even with a lot of bad things Vegeta does, there's still a great many moments like him apologizing to Gohan, sacrificing himself for his family sake and tossing his pride aside stick out as great moments. Piccolo's sacrifice also stands out as a great moment for him and it would for Gohan.... If he didn't do it for his usual "Grrr! I'm angry now!" shtick that's basically half his character in a nutshell. Even Vegeta's doesn't bother me as much since Vegeta treated Trunks like shit and was a total bastard up until that point, him losing his shit not over his wounded pride but for his kid dying was basically the first step in his development.
Nothing Gohan's ever done has really done the same for me, that one moment where I can say "Yeah, I can get behind this guy." The closest thing the series has come to that is actually applying Gohan's better education and saner mindset in contrast to everyone else at the Cell Games but the franchise never does anything with it. His moment of genre savviness is completely overshadowed by more "Grrr! I'm angry now!" shit and Super's attempt at it was undercut just to show the other of Gohan's two sides: failed Goku replacement.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
kinisking wrote:I like vegeta but it is pretty interesting to see his ass kicked for some reason. Although I named Vegeta, I don't think he's worthless at all. That's why I get annoyed when people blame the writers for him messing up because honestly he doesn't even do it that much. He gets a lot of attention and wins quite often.
And well at least you admit that Piccolo hasn't done much although that makes it stranger that you consider Gohan shit tier for doing the same things Piccolo does.
Vegeta and to a far lesser extent, Piccolo both kind of get away with a lot of crap because they managed to strike a cord with me at one point or another. Even with a lot of bad things Vegeta does, there's still a great many moments like him apologizing to Gohan, sacrificing himself for his family sake and tossing his pride aside stick out as great moments. Piccolo's sacrifice also stands out as a great moment for him and it would for Gohan.... If he didn't do it for his usual "Grrr! I'm angry now!" shtick that's basically half his character in a nutshell. Even Vegeta's doesn't bother me as much since Vegeta treated Trunks like shit and was a total bastard up until that point, him losing his shit not over his wounded pride but for his kid dying was basically the first step in his development.
Nothing Gohan's ever done has really done the same for me, that one moment where I can say "Yeah, I can get behind this guy." The closest thing the series has come to that is actually applying Gohan's better education and saner mindset in contrast to everyone else at the Cell Games but the franchise never does anything with it. His moment of genre savviness is completely overshadowed by more "Grrr! I'm angry now!" shit and Super's attempt at it was undercut just to show the other of Gohan's two sides: failed Goku replacement.
Okay, I can get behind that. I thought you just didn't like him because of his failures which didn't make sense to me. I can completely understand if it's because you just never found an interesting moment with him.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
The time machine is a throwback to Gohan's big moment, so there is wasted potential in that sense. Though, I think for Gohan to be relevant he'd have to actually have something at stake in the arc. His role in RoF made sense because he's protecting his family and Earth. But fighting Zamasu in some alternate future? That'd be a stretch for Gohan's character.
Bansho64 wrote:Yeah, I thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity. And sincewe're discussing Gohan in general, I gotta say that I like them. I relate to him the best, form the best emotional connections with his character, and he's pretty cool from time to time on top of that. I don't really think hard, long, and analyze flaws like I do Goku because I don't see them as that big. Yeah, he's messed up, but I see them as mess ups that I can relate to. It's weird. Anyways, he's my favorite character and I wish he was in this arc..
Same. Well he's not my favirote charcter, I still like the guy. But I can see why some don't.
I have borderline personality disorder, if my posts ever come off as aggressive or word vomit-y to you, please let me know.
LuckyCat wrote:But fighting Zamasu in some alternate future? That'd be a stretch for Gohan's character.
Why? He was clearly unsatisfied by knowing Future Trunks situation though they met before and he didn't say anything to him. Gohan never would decline to help his friends when it's needed.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
LuckyCat wrote:But fighting Zamasu in some alternate future? That'd be a stretch for Gohan's character.
Why? He was clearly unsatisfied by knowing Future Trunks situation though they met before and he didn't say anything to him. Gohan never would decline to help his friends when it's needed.
Unsatisfied, but also unmoved. He's got too much interest in his own timeline at the moment with his newborn to be going off in some future adventure where he could be killed. That type of outing is better-suited to the pure-blooded Saiyans who love to fight.
LuckyCat wrote:Unsatisfied, but also unmoved. He's got too much interest in his own timeline at the moment to be going off in some future adventure where he could be killed. That type of outing is better-suited to the pure-blooded Saiyans who love to fight.
Unmoved cause his power wouldn't help in anything, you could say the same about Piccolo not suggesting himself to go and use the Mafuba on Zamasu. If Gohan had knew earlier about Trunks, he would make himself available to help his friend
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
All it would've taken was one look at the suffering being caused in Trunks' timeline. That would've been more than enough to spur Gohan on to fight. Gohan's always been the type of character who hates seeing innocent people being killed, he practically lost his mind on Namek after witnessing Freeza's men slaughter people. Aside from maybe Goku and Trunks, none of the other fighters typically display the same level of compassion for civilians.
I mentioned this before but they could've also stuck a Future version of Videl in there, possibly in a similar role that Mai had. I think it would've more interesting to see Gohan interact with her since she most likely never would've met him (or Future Gohan) before. I would've preferred to see that over what we got with Mai and Trunks, I thought the way that played out felt kinda forced.
LuckyCat wrote:Are Future Trunks and Gohan really friends? They didn't have much interaction in the main timeline.
Well, I think so. They are not close friends, but they did have some interaction investigating the second time machine and after Gohan leaves the RoSaT. My point is that Future Trunks is pretty close to Gohan from his timeline, that is around the same age present Gohan, and this arc with Gohan playing a active role could build this same bond.
NitroEX wrote:I think it would've more interesting to see Gohan interact with her since she most likely never would've met him (or Future Gohan) before. I would've preferred to see that over what we got with Mai and Trunks, I thought the way that played out felt kinda forced.
I don't get it, you mean that you would like present Gohan to interact with a future version of Videl in a romantic way?
Anyway I do agree with the Mai part, never liked how Pilaf Gang was reintroduced to the main series and how out of nowhere is this TrunksxMai thing, I really would like to be a new female character to be Trunks pair instead of her.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Noah wrote:
I don't get it, you mean that you would like present Gohan to interact with a future version of Videl in a romantic way?
No, it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic, after all that would technically be cheating on his spouse (then there's also the age difference). I guess it would really depend on what the end goal of the story would be in that hypothetical version and if Gohan's allowed to grow as a character by the end of the arc or remain stagnant. Her role in that timeline would also affect things quite a bit.
The main point to it is that he obviously cares about Videl in his own time and thus would be motivated to protect her and find out more about her. Naturally she wouldn't know who he is so I'd imagine she wouldn't care about him, that in itself could have had potential for interesting moments between the two. Plus it would've been nice to have Videl doing something.
I suppose if he witnessed her die that would be pretty impactful. Even though it isn't his Videl it would no doubt still make him pretty angry. I suppose something like that could have been used to unlocked new power or just motivate him to try harder in his own timeline.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
I foresee a Gohan arc as well: the conference arc, in which Gohan feels the pressure of having to prepare a presentation, take care of Pan, and plan a gift for his anniversary with Videl at the same time. How will he do it? Find out next time...on Dragon Ball Super!
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
precita wrote:Gohan will star in an arc of Super just like Trunks did, you all know it too.
How are you so sure?
It will happen eventually. They'll want to keep marketing new Super Saiyan forms, that's probably the only reason Vegito even got a return.
Gohan is going to go Super Saiyan Blue eventually, or have some sort of unique transformation similar to the Buu saga or like Trunks new form. Mark my words.
precita wrote:Gohan is going to go Super Saiyan Blue eventually, or have some sort of unique transformation similar to the Buu saga or like Trunks new form. Mark my words.
You know, expecting stuff like that to be a certainty is why people got so upset over Episode 52.
I could have gotten into anything...and yet I chose the story aimed at young Japanese boys about martial arts, and later about super-powerful aliens punching each other really hard.
