The Main Character(s)

[ABED]

Who said he was?

You, by saying a "different version of Alan Scott". That's not the same as a different version of green lantern.

I said he's not a different version. They are different characters, different continuities, and different concepts. One's a magical ring with an aversion to wood. One is a space cop with an entire corp. to back him up. It's as different as The Human Torch and Johnny Storm.

Green Lantern is not the character, it's a name and a similar set of abilities, much like the Ghostbusters and Ghost Busters were similar, but ultimately completely different.

Lastly, I can't say much about Star Trek beyond I don't care for any of those series. Other than the reboot, I find it a very boring universe.

[rereboy]

Who said he was?

You, by saying a "different version of Alan Scott". That's not the same as a different version of green lantern.

I said he's not a different version. They are different characters, different continuities, and different concepts. One's a magical ring with an aversion to wood. One is a space cop with an entire corp. to back him up. It's as different as The Human Torch and Johnny Storm.

Green Lantern is not the character, it's a name and a similar set of abilities, much like the Ghostbusters and Ghost Busters were similar, but ultimately completely different.

You mean Ghostbusters the 2016 movie?

[ABED]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_Busters

I am willing to concede that in cases where you retool a concept or do a spinoff set in the same universe, that a new version can be better than its progenitor, but what I'm talking about is the same story and same long running continuity.

[rereboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_Busters

That's a purely coincidental similitude.

The action to transform and reinvent the character of Green Lantern (Alan Scott) to the character of Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) was entirely intentional.

You are ignoring the difference between these two situations.

[Bansho64]

Yeah, no, I'm definitely not down with this thread's initial premise of Goku supposedly being non-irreplaceable. It ain't like it's never been done before.

[ABED]

Yeah, no, I'm definitely not down with this thread's initial premise of Goku supposedly being non-irreplaceable. It ain't like it's never been done before.

Like when Gohan took over? See how well that turned out.

That's a purely coincidental similitude.

The action to transform and reinvent the character of Green Lantern (Alan Scott) to the character of Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) was entirely intentional.

You are ignoring the difference between these two situations.

I'm aware, simply pointing out that it's not important to Hal being an original incarnation, intention isn't particularly important. In the case of Green Lantern, Hal didn't take over for Scott as the Golden Age continuity was erased.

[ekrolo2]

Yeah, no, I'm definitely not down with this thread's initial premise of Goku supposedly being non-irreplaceable. It ain't like it's never been done before.

Like when Gohan took over? See how well that turned out.

Gohan didn't work out because Toriyama just made him bland as hell when he became a protagonist. Instead of keeping Gohan's traits of being a nerd and a bit over the top in his Saiyaman persona, he just made him a boring combo of Namek SS Goku and Gohan's SS2 self from the Cell fight. Stoic, pointlessly overpowered and stupidly cocky.

Gohan, if he's to stay in-character for a protagonist position, needs to be written like Obi-Wan Kenobi in the EU: a highly talented fighter and warrior who'd much rather sit down and read a good book than endanger the entire universe because "LOLZ SAIYAN PRIDE/LOGIC!" demands it. The problem with is that you need to put in actual effort to make this work, and Toriyama is past the point of giving an inkling of a fuck by the Boo arcs conclusion.

[Bansho64]

Gohan didn't work out because Toriyama just made him bland as hell when he became a protagonist. Instead of keeping Gohan's traits of being a nerd and a bit over the top in his Saiyaman persona, he just made him a boring combo of Namek SS Goku and Gohan's SS2 self from the Cell fight. Stoic, pointlessly overpowered and stupidly cocky.

You're talking about when he got the center after the Old Kai power up, right?

Gohan, if he's to stay in-character for a protagonist position, needs to be written like Obi-Wan Kenobi in the EU: a highly talented fighter and warrior who'd much rather sit down and read a good book than endanger the entire universe because "LOLZ SAIYAN PRIDE/LOGIC!" demands it. The problem with is that you need to put in actual effort to make this work, and Toriyama is past the point of giving an inkling of a fuck by the Boo arcs conclusion.

Early Buu arc Gohan was pretty much like this.

[rereboy]

I'm aware, simply pointing out that it's not important to Hal being an original incarnation, intention isn't particularly important. In the case of Green Lantern, Hal didn't take over for Scott as the Golden Age continuity was erased.

I don't see how intention is not particularly important when the intention was, literally, to create a new, re-imagined, Green Lantern. Not some other unrelated hero character, no, a new, re-imagined Green Lantern. With that in mind I don't see how can anyone suggest that Hal Jordan is the original, aka the first Green Lantern, in the same way that, for example, Peter Parker is the original, aka the first Spider-man. It really isn't the same. But, as I've stated, if you think so...

[ekrolo2]

You're talking about when he got the center after the Old Kai power up, right?

Exactly! It's almost a complete rip off of what Toriyama did with him in the Cell arc but it just doesn't work. It destroys everything that makes him unique and Cell Games Gohan, for all the insufferable fanboy hype around it, made a lot of sense. Gohan got pushed hard and snapped, and this intense anger clouded his judgment and he paid the price for his anger & cockiness. He has no such excuses this time. He can't and shouldn't act the way he does.

Early Buu arc Gohan was pretty much like this.

And apparently, nobody liked it even though it's the only time Gohan has something approaching his own identity that goes beyond occasionally getting pissed off.

[ABED]

I don't see how intention is not particularly important when the intention was, literally, to create a new, re-imagined, Green Lantern. Not some other unrelated hero character, no, a new, re-imagined Green Lantern. With that in mind I don't see how can anyone suggest that Hal Jordan is the original, aka the first Green Lantern, in the same way that, for example, Peter Parker is the original, aka the first Spider-man. It really isn't the same. But, as I've stated, if you think so...

They aren't in the same continuity except as a retcon and Hal didn't take over for Alan Scott. That's what you are missing. Alan Scott wasn't part of the Green Lantern Corp. It's pretty much a complete reimagining.

Gohan didn't work out because Toriyama just made him bland as hell when he became a protagonist. Instead of keeping Gohan's traits of being a nerd and a bit over the top in his Saiyaman persona, he just made him a boring combo of Namek SS Goku and Gohan's SS2 self from the Cell fight. Stoic, pointlessly overpowered and stupidly cocky.

He wasn't bland at all. He just didn't have the traits needed for being a compelling shonen protagonist. His Saiyaman persona wore out its welcome fairly quickly and I don't see how that lends itself to being a great main character.

Obi-Wan Kenobi in the EU: a highly talented fighter and warrior who'd much rather sit down and read a good book than endanger the entire universe because "LOLZ SAIYAN PRIDE/LOGIC!" demands it. The problem with is that you need to put in actual effort to make this work, and Toriyama is past the point of giving an inkling of a fuck by the Boo arcs conclusion.

So instead of being unique, he's like most other superheroes who only fights when he has to? The big issue with anyone else than Goku at the center of the story is that the tone of the series reflects Goku's personality and vice versa. He fits it to a T. And why do you assume to know if Toriyama was trying or not?

[Bansho64]

He wasn't bland at all. He just didn't have the traits needed for being a compelling shonen protagonist. His Saiyaman persona wore out its welcome fairly quickly and I don't see how that lends itself to being a great main character.

I thought he was pretty bland. I think the way Toriyama wrote him in that part of the arc is a whole lot more different compared to the way he wrote them in earlier parts. That was my main problem with him taking center after the power up. Because of how different his persona seemed to what he had gotten from him earlier in the arc.

[BlueBasilisk]

So instead of being unique, he's like most other superheroes who only fights when he has to? The big issue with anyone else than Goku at the center of the story is that the tone of the series reflects Goku's personality and vice versa. He fits it to a T. And why do you assume to know if Toriyama was trying or not?

This was my biggest problem with Gohan trying to take over as the main character. All the other characters, even Goten and Trunks, like to fight and strive to improve themselves. Gohan doesn't have that drive and always had to be pushed into it. When it was peaceful, he slacked off and got weaker. Videl had to twist his arm just to get him to enter the World Tournament. That's not a good trait for the lead character in a fighting series, especially not when he's coming on the heels of Goku.

I'd be fine with someone else taking over as the central character for a while. They just need to carry on in the spirit of Goku.

[rereboy]

They aren't in the same continuity except as a retcon and Hal didn't take over for Alan Scott. That's what you are missing. Alan Scott wasn't part of the Green Lantern Corp. It's pretty much a complete reimagining.

I didn't miss it, I just thought it was obvious that reboots, remakes and re-imaginings aren't usually in the same continuity. That is kind of the whole point... to make anew. And the explicit intention of the authors was to have Hal be the new Green Lantern character, even if there isn't a "in-universe take over".

Would you really argue that a remake (that changes a lot of what is remaking) is actually the original just because it isn't in the same continuity as the first one and because there isn't a "in-universe take over" of characters? I mean how could anyone, honestly, with a straight face, call it "the original"...? That's my view.

[ABED]

Would you really argue that a remake (that changes a lot of what is remaking) is actually the original just because it isn't in the same continuity as the first one and because there isn't a "in-universe take over" of characters? I mean how could anyone, honestly, with a straight face, call it "the original"...? That's my view.

No, because this isn't a remake.

[ekrolo2]

He wasn't bland at all. He just didn't have the traits needed for being a compelling shonen protagonist. His Saiyaman persona wore out its welcome fairly quickly and I don't see how that lends itself to being a great main character.

He became a bland by virtue of losing all his identifiable traits. His gentleness is gone, any unique outfit he had before is replaced by his dads because Toriyama really wants to sell him as Goku instead of working with his established personality. He's just the same cocky idiot from the Cell arc after his dead died because of it so it doesn't even have good context for writing him the way it does in that scene.

So instead of being unique, he's like most other superheroes who only fights when he has to? The big issue with anyone else than Goku at the center of the story is that the tone of the series reflects Goku's personality and vice versa. He fits it to a T. And why do you assume to know if Toriyama was trying or not?

Gohan is pretty proactive when he's Saiyaman if I recall right, he does like to help people and has admitted to liking martial arts, the only difference is that he doesn't get a kick out of pointlessly raising the stakes so his fighting boner is satiated the way 98% of the cast does.

Plus, Goku isn't even that proactive when it comes to fighting threats either. The only reason he fights the Saiyan's is because they attack him, the only reason he rushes to Namek is because he's the only one who can back Gohan and Krillin up (if Freeza never came there, Goku would've happily sat out the whole trip in his hospital bed), his inaction is precisely what causes the whole Android arc to happen and the Boo arc is a mix of his inaction making things worse and somebody elses' problems getting him involved. Goku has never actually gone out and said "Y'know what? I'm gonna go out there and fight somebody!" when that somebody isn't already shiting in his backyard.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku has never actually gone out and said "Y'know what? I'm gonna go out there and fight somebody!" when that somebody isn't already shiting in his backyard.

He just did that this arc.

[ekrolo2]

Goku has never actually gone out and said "Y'know what? I'm gonna go out there and fight somebody!" when that somebody isn't already shiting in his backyard.

He just did that this arc.

I'm talking about the material that's not shit.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Goku has never actually gone out and said "Y'know what? I'm gonna go out there and fight somebody!" when that somebody isn't already shiting in his backyard.

He just did that this arc.

I'm talking about the material that's not shit.

He also did that back in DB when he entered the tournaments.

[ABED]

Gohan is pretty proactive when he's Saiyaman if I recall right, he does like to help people and has admitted to liking martial arts, the only difference is that he doesn't get a kick out of pointlessly raising the stakes so his fighting boner is satiated the way 98% of the cast does.

Against ham and eggers. None of those guys are remotely a challenge to him. I like that Gohan is different from the rest of the cast, but those qualities make him similar to most superheroes. You seem to be putting Goku and the other Z fighters down because they care more for the fight than the fate of the world, and while I agree that Goku certainly does, I don't need the protagonist to be a goody two shoes. I need him to be interesting.

his inaction is precisely what causes the whole Android arc to happen

But he's proactive about it. He would only be passive if you assume the goal is to stop the cyborgs. It's not. His goal is to fight them. He trains in preparation to fight them.

"Y'know what? I'm gonna go out there and fight somebody!" when that somebody isn't already shiting in his backyard.

He does that all the time. He's constantly preparing himself for those fights and he would've gone to Namek if he could've. In DB, he sought adventure. Sometimes things come to him, but that doesn't make him passive. Even against the Cyborgs, he prepares for them. If he knew about Freeza, I'm sure he would've trained to fight him.