Kai vs. Z Dub

[ABED]

He does, but he makes them at a time when he feels a heightened sense of purpose when fighting Freeza. That fact plus prior evidence of him enjoying fighting make his actions make sense. But I'll concede that it is a plot contrivance.

They don't. If he was really all about saving people he wouldn't do the things he does like let Vegeta go or let Dr. Gero create the Cyborgs. It's no mere plot contrivance. It's a mischaracterization brought on by writers trying to impose their morals on a character they don't understand.

The point is that the simple fact of there being a contrast does not automatically make something bad. That's a rather simplistic thing to claim.

Never claimed it was. You've created a strawman out of a clear misunderstanding of my view. Contrasts can work as I have also stated, in this case it doesn't. The gentlemanly exterior isn't reflected in anything else (e.g. his dialog).

Ahem.....There's absolutely something creepy about Young's performance. It's all about execution and both the writing and her performance are creepy. Anyway, I'm going to keep tying all this back to your "objectively bad" claim so that people understand what I'm actually arguing. Just because you don't find it creepy, doesn't make that the "truth" nor does constitute "objectively bad".

It's not creepy. The writing wasn't creepy, at least not in a good way. Her come-ons are so odd and offputting. It is absolutely the truth because that performance is not good. It's a woman trying to sound like Evil McEvilperson. "Round and round the monkey goes, if he stops, off with his nose" "Whatever you want big guy" "We could've been so good together" "I'll beat your tail!" aren't creepy, they're just weird. I'm absolutely certain that no one above the age of perhaps 8 was actually creeped out by it. They intellectualize it and say it's creepy as opposed to actually feeling creeped out by it.

[90sDBZ]

...huh? I'm not really understanding what point you're trying to make here.

It seems like people like to categorize the Japanese/manga version of the show as just another version...and not the actual, original show in its original language. Now, people's preferences are one thing, but the argument you're making doesn't make sense. If accuracy weren't a factor in somebody's assessment, wouldn't you think they'd go with the show with superior acting and less cheesy dialogue tailored towards Saturday morning cartoons? It's not like a more accurate dub would be a dealbreaker to a casual fan, here. It makes a helluva lot more sense to just present the show as is.

A lot of people happen to like cheesy stuff though. And in fairness the Japanese version seems to have its own brand of cheese going on a lot of the time, particularly in some of the movie songs.

I couldn't find a video with the lyrics, but this ending song from movie 4 has some seriously cheesy over the top lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3v241aPsDU

And then there's Dan Dan from GT essentially being a corny love song that sounds like it was written by a teenage girl. It's a catchy tune, but is very much in guilty pleasure territory for me. Most of the ending songs from GT are the same too, with the exception of Ending 4 which is genuinely awesome. And Romantic Ageru Yo from DB is also very cheesy.

And then there's also this moment from Z Movie 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

Personally I'd much rather someone walk in on me with "Krillin's in da hooouuse!!" playing than that scene. It would just feel extremely awkward.

Anyway putting all that aside for a minute I'd just like to address what people have been saying about the treatment of Goku's character. People don't seem to want to acknowledge what Toei were already doing with him for years before Funimation dubbed the show. Again I'll use the movies as an example.

In Movie 5 Goku is in a near death state and says "The animals must come first". Later in the movie he revives a dead bird in a Jesus like way, with organ music playing and all. He then says that he won't forgive Cooler for damaging the planet, which ironically lines up perfectly with his controversial "My world" line from the BoG dub. There's even a line were he shows guilt and says "It's all my fault", even though it kind of isn't in this case.

In movie 6 he travels across the galaxy to rescue the Namekians, even before he knows that there's a strong opponent there.

In movie 7 he expresses disgust towards the Androids for putting innocent people in danger.

All the elements that Funimation/Barry Watson get full blame for were already in place. It's wasn't a case of "Funimation butchering Toei's masterfully faithful adaption of Toriyama's work" as much as it was Toei taking several liberties of their own and subsequently leading by example. The movies that Toei released alongside the anime were seen by the same audience, and were essentially part of the same product. Even if you choose to ignore them there's still GT, which pretty much continued the same characterisation with Goku for a full series. GT actually took over it's predecessors timeslot and was seen by a wide audience in Japan during the mid 90s, which was around the same time the Z dub started airing in America. Both portrayed Goku as a heroic individual who expressed concern for innocent people and the welfare of his family.

Another thing I often see is people trying to paint a picture of Toei having some sort of moral highground over Funimation, with phrases like "respect for the original product" being thrown around regularly. Yeah, because Toei had so much respect for their own product that they decided to throw out the original masters. They had so much respect for their product that they only really intended to sell toys, and didn't bother giving the show a home release until years later as an afterthought. Say what you will about Funimation but you can't deny that the show itself has always been "the product" to them ahead of the toys it could sell.

[ABED]

Sure, Toei took some liberties with the character or perhaps they misunderstood what Toriyama's intentions were, but they have the have the benefit of adapting it from script to animation. It's like when Peter Jackson made changes to Tolkien's works. FUNimation just dubs. That's a big difference.

[Kaio_Krazy]

I love the Kai dub, it came at a time where I still liked Dragon Ball, but to a much lesser extent than in my youth. Every time I tried to go back and watch the show, it could barely hold my interest for more than an episode or two. The voices had become grating to me, and the music insufferable, but I maintained that beneath it all there was a good story. The more I became disinterested in the original dub though, the more I began to question if that was true.

Then Kai came out, I was no where near as plugged into the Dragon Ball community as I am now, so I didn't really understand what it was. The most I got out of it was that it was shorter, so I assumed it was more of a director's cut kinda thing, but still the original dub. I think it was about a year after the dub had finished that I finally gave it a try. After watching a couple episodes through...less than legal means, I bought the whole damn thing and binged it over a couple days. I loved every second of it. I felt vindicated, there really was a good story here!

I still get a high from hearing this dub, the quality of the acting just elevates those memorable scenes to new heights for me. Since everyone was talking about the episode where Vegeta fights #19, I'd just like to direct your attention to another line from the Kai version. Just before Vegeta stuffs his foot in 19's chest, he says "I'm assuming androids don't really register pain...a lucky break for you."............Oh, I didn't have a point to go with this, I just love the way Sabat says it in that kinda half whisper, it's so menacing, and smug, and cool, and just fucking oozes everything that makes Vegeta well Vegeta.

I also happen to be a big fan of the One Piece dub, and by extension Colleen's portrayal of Luffy, so I'm quite familiar with that voice. After getting over how bizarre it was to not hear Nadolny playing Gohan, I started paying closer attention to his new voice. I was and still am impressed at how Colleen managed to make the two characters sound distinct, and no I don't mean through the dialogue. It's actually only after hearing her in Xenoverse (2) that I think she sounds too much like Luffy, and I wish she would go back and listen to Kai to fix that.

I love everything about Kai, hell even the unintended use of the Kikuchi score got me interested enough to go back and watch all of Z in Japanese, and now I love that too. I love the new actors, Bulma (Bloom a, which ever you prefer) in particular is a huge step up. I love all the changes/ improvements the returning actors did. Vegeta is now more high pitched, look no further than him kicking #19, he never goes that high in the original dub. Piccolo no longer sounds like he's gargling nails. Schemmel really came into his own with Goku here, I love the small detail that his first Super Saiyan transformation in Kai, is the only time they let his voice crack during a scream. Really adds to it sounding like the mix of anguish and pure fury, that it's supposed to be. The one gripe I have with the dub, is that they didn't stay consistent with the original attack names, or maybe they did but the nicktoons recording accidentally made their way into the home release, who knows. I just wanted to hear them say "Room of Spirit and Time" once damn it!

As for the music, I really like Kikuchi's, but I adore Yamamoto's. Guy may have stolen it, but he picked some good shit to steal. I own all of Kai, but my default way of watching it is via a fan version that puts that forbidden music back in. Just for fun, I also have variants of the episodes where Trunks kills Freeza, and Gohan transforms, that have Battle Point Unlimited and Spirit vs Spirit in them.

In summation, Kai felt like Dragon Ball growing up with me, and reinvigorated my passion for a franchise I hold very dear to me. I wouldn't be here now, if not for Kai happening after all. As much as I love Kai though, I still think that if you prefer the original dub, more power to you. If it bring you enjoyment watching it, then don't let anyone tell you that you shouldn't like it. I may not think it's very good at all, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna tell you not to watch it. Just don't try to tell me that the original dub did anything better, cause you won't be convincing me of that shit any time soon lol.

Oh wow, I did not plan on writing all that when I sat down, whoops.

[jjgp1112]

A lot of people happen to like cheesy stuff though. And in fairness the Japanese version seems to have its own brand of cheese going on a lot of the time, particularly in some of the movie songs.

I couldn't find a video with the lyrics, but this ending song from movie 4 has some seriously cheesy over the top lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3v241aPsDU

And then there's Dan Dan from GT essentially being a corny love song that sounds like it was written by a teenage girl. It's a catchy tune, but is very much in guilty pleasure territory for me. Most of the ending songs from GT are the same too, with the exception of Ending 4 which is genuinely awesome. And Romantic Ageru Yo from DB is also very cheesy.

And then there's also this moment from Z Movie 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

Personally I'd much rather someone walk in on me with "Krillin's in da hooouuse!!" playing than that scene. It would just feel extremely awkward.

I don't see what the song lyrics have to do with the actual dialogue.

[thaman91]

He does, but he makes them at a time when he feels a heightened sense of purpose when fighting Freeza. That fact plus prior evidence of him enjoying fighting make his actions make sense. But I'll concede that it is a plot contrivance.

They don't. If he was really all about saving people he wouldn't do the things he does like let Vegeta go or let Dr. Gero create the Cyborgs. It's no mere plot contrivance. It's a mischaracterization brought on by writers trying to impose their morals on a character they don't understand.

You're saying he's "all about saving people" and then finding counterexamples to "prove" a contradiction. There are moments throughout the dub where he actually talks about his love for fighting and admits that he did things that were not primarily motivated by "saving people". So the superhero thing is not firmly established in-dub-universe. So moments where he's not acting superhero-y are not contradictions.

The point is that the simple fact of there being a contrast does not automatically make something bad. That's a rather simplistic thing to claim.

Never claimed it was. You've created a strawman out of a clear misunderstanding of my view. Contrasts can work as I have also stated, in this case it doesn't. The gentlemanly exterior isn't reflected in anything else (e.g. his dialog).

Well you have stated the following:

Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms.

...his dub personality doesn't match the visuals. He was originally animated and written to be a uppercrust space dictator who's almost gentlemanly. In the dub, he's a cartoonish evil creature that spouts cheesy jokes and generic evil lines.

You're saying that the visuals of Freeza (his animated mannerisms) are "almost gentlemanly" and you're saying that his dub personality doesn't match those aforementioned visuals. And (this is where I'm assuming you were going with this), you're using that example to support your point about the dub being objectively bad. So, my response to that claim (if you are indeed making that claim) is that different aspects of a character don't always have to match up. Yoda is strong in the Force and a "great warrior", yet is small and slow moving (at least in the originals); so being powerful, yet small & slow moving doesn't exactly match up either. Similarly, the subtle gentlemanly mannerisms that you claim are present don't have to be paired with a gentlemanly personality in order to be "objectively good".

Ahem.....There's absolutely something creepy about Young's performance. It's all about execution and both the writing and her performance are creepy. Anyway, I'm going to keep tying all this back to your "objectively bad" claim so that people understand what I'm actually arguing. Just because you don't find it creepy, doesn't make that the "truth" nor does constitute "objectively bad".

It's not creepy. The writing wasn't creepy, at least not in a good way. Her come-ons are so odd and offputting. It is absolutely the truth because that performance is not good.

I'm absolutely certain that no one above the age of perhaps 8 was actually creeped out by it. They intellectualize it and say it's creepy as opposed to actually feeling creeped out by it.

The performance could've used some work, I'll agree. But your other sentences...they're just assertions backed by nothing other than "because I said so". Just because you say it's not creepy, doesn't make that the objective truth. And just because you use phrases like "It's absolutely the truth" or "I'm absolutely certain", doesn't mean your argument has any more weight behind it. But I'm more than willing to acknowledge that while it may have worked for me, it didn't do the same for you, and that's okay.

[Metalwario64]

I don't see what the song lyrics have to do with the actual dialogue.

It sort of feels like grasping at straws to me.

Again there's nothing wrong with liking flawed products, but trying to dismiss those flaws or attempting to justify them and saying that they make it superior just seems disingenuous to me.

You're saying he's "all about saving people" and then finding counterexamples to "prove" a contradiction. There are moments throughout the dub where he actually talks about his love for fighting and admits that he did things that were not primarily motivated by "saving people". So the superhero thing is not firmly established in-dub-universe. So moments where he's not acting superhero-y are not contradictions.

It's quite inconsistent. I've stated in another thread about how Krillin asks Goku if he's enjoying the prospect of fighting Ginyu, to which he replies "kinda" (which wasn't even in the original dialog), but when the fighting starts, Goku tells Ginyu about how "hurting people is wrong" and that "helping people can be fun too!". He also retains his line about enjoying fighting Freeza, but once his hair changes to blond, he becomes a full on "ally of justice" and constantly spouts heroic drivel like "your evil deeds are like a noose around your neck!".

People say that it was only in season 3, but when he confronts Cell before the tournament, he tells him that he's "going to bring the sword of justice down on him", and then later when he confronts Super Buu, he tells him that he's "finally found a way to make him pay for all of his crimes!", so the superhero mindset is carried through the entire dub. Japanese Goku would never say things like this.

[ABED]

His mannerisms are gentlemanly and he could be considered a gentleman if it weren't for him being a vicious dictator.

is strong in the Force and a "great warrior", yet is small and slow moving (at least in the originals)

Yoda's old, so of course he's lost a step, but he's no less wise. You keep going to that Yoda example and it never works. Yoda's mannerisms did match his personality. We aren't talking about design.

[thaman91]

You're saying he's "all about saving people" and then finding counterexamples to "prove" a contradiction. There are moments throughout the dub where he actually talks about his love for fighting and admits that he did things that were not primarily motivated by "saving people". So the superhero thing is not firmly established in-dub-universe. So moments where he's not acting superhero-y are not contradictions.

It's quite inconsistent. I've stated in another thread about how Krillin asks Goku if he's enjoying the prospect of fighting Ginyu, to which he replies "kinda" (which wasn't even in the original dialog), but when the fighting starts, Goku tells Ginyu about how "hurting people is wrong" and that "helping people can be fun too!". He also retains his line about enjoying fighting Freeza, but once his hair changes to blond, he becomes a full on "ally of justice" and constantly spouts heroic drivel like "your evil deeds are like a noose around your neck!".

The ideas of "fighting being fun", "hurting people being wrong", and "helping people being fun" are not necessarily contradictory. Fighting can be fun for someone as a sport whilst that person simultaneously does not enjoy severely harming others after the sport is done (like beating them up after they can't even fight back or murdering innocents to get the dragon ball). As for "helping people can be fun too"...how does that contradict anything? It's a cheesy line, but Goku is shown many times helping people (saving his friends, saving the world) by fighting and he's having a lot of fun doing so (since it involves fighting).

People say that it was only in season 3, but when he confronts Cell before the tournament, he tells him that he's "going to bring the sword of justice down on him", and then later when he confronts Super Buu, he tells him that he's "finally found a way to make him pay for all of his crimes!", so the superhero mindset is carried through the entire dub. Japanese Goku would never say things like this.

It's present later on, but his more selfish side is definitely presented more overtly as the show progresses (the dub, I mean).

His mannerisms are gentlemanly and he could be considered a gentleman if it weren't for him being a vicious dictator.

is strong in the Force and a "great warrior", yet is small and slow moving (at least in the originals)

Yoda's old, so of course he's lost a step, but he's no less wise. You keep going to that Yoda example and it never works. Yoda's mannerisms did match his personality. We aren't talking about design.

It's not exactly analogous but it's still two aspects of a character that contrast with each other. We are told that Yoda is a great warrior, not was, and that he's powerful in the Force. The fact that he's so small and slow-moving contrasts with this. Dub Freeza supposedly has mannerisms specific to a gentleman, yet has a contrasting personality. Surely there's no "objective" rule that states that it's okay if a powerful & great warrior is small & slow, whilst it's not okay for a monster with subtle gentlemanly mannerisms to not actually talk like a gentleman.

[ABED]

You are being a tad too literal. When we meet Yoda, he's old and a few years away from dying. He's still strong with the force in his old age. His actions and mannerisms still match his personality. The situations you are describing are different. Kaio's personality stands in seeming contrast to his reputation, but when he's solemn, the animation conveys solemnity. When he's goofy, the animation conveys goofy. In the dub, when Freeza is nonchalant, they have him spouting cheesy lines and trying to sound like a stereotypical bad guy. It's hard for me to put into words, but the animation doesn't quite matching his personality.

The examples you are bringing up aren't analogous because I'm not talking about the design. You are talking about a completely different issue.

[thaman91]

I know my example isn't exactly analogous. I've already acknowledged that. It's different because it's about reputation vs. appearance whilst you're talking about mannerisms vs. personality. But it's also similar because it's talking about two aspects of a character contrasting with one another.

And it's fine if you think the animation doesn't match dub Freeza's personality. Personally though, I don't think they're so at odds with one another that it makes the experience bad. To me, dub Freeza has a creepy voice & way of talking, says some cheesy villainous lines, and has a somewhat composed "mannerism" which gives off the sense that he's the one in control. Now granted, I know you don't accept the premise that dub Freeza's personality works to begin with, but for those for whom it does work, nothing about his mannerisms stand out as being incompatible with his personality.

What all this really boils down to: different strokes for different folks.

[ABED]

What's creepy about a voice that's clearly a woman attempting to sound like a cartoonish villain?

[thaman91]

For me, it was the deeper-sounding female voice delivered in a gleeful way that often ranged from calm to aggressive....and that paired with his monstrous appearance (especially his 2nd & 3rd forms) made dub Freeza quite nightmare-ish.

[ABED]

For me, it was the deeper-sounding female voice delivered in a gleeful way that often ranged from calm to aggressive....and that paired with his monstrous appearance (especially his 2nd & 3rd forms) made dub Freeza quite nightmare-ish.

It wasn't that deep. When it was, it was run through a filter. Saying "I'll beat your tail" or "round and round the monkey goes, if he stops, off with his nose" is nightmare-ish?

[thaman91]

For me, it was the deeper-sounding female voice delivered in a gleeful way that often ranged from calm to aggressive....and that paired with his monstrous appearance (especially his 2nd & 3rd forms) made dub Freeza quite nightmare-ish.

It wasn't that deep. When it was, it was run through a filter. Saying "I'll beat your tail" or "round and round the monkey goes, if he stops, off with his nose" is nightmare-ish?

Not male deep. But deepish for a female voice and it had some roughness to it. And yeah, the voice filter was nice. Maybe "nightmare-ish" is exaggerating, but the voice & delivery felt menacing. The cheesy lines often kept things light in a good way but they also, at times, provided a contrast that added to the creepiness. Like he just impaled Krillin, and he's callous enough to start making cheesy jokes, as if Krillin & everyone else in the world are just play-things that exist for the sole purpose of Freeza's psychopathic amusement. And really Freeza, you're then going to say "Pop goes the weasel" after murdering one of our protagonists?! I hope Goku wrecks you.

[90sDBZ]

A lot of people happen to like cheesy stuff though. And in fairness the Japanese version seems to have its own brand of cheese going on a lot of the time, particularly in some of the movie songs.

I couldn't find a video with the lyrics, but this ending song from movie 4 has some seriously cheesy over the top lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3v241aPsDU

And then there's Dan Dan from GT essentially being a corny love song that sounds like it was written by a teenage girl. It's a catchy tune, but is very much in guilty pleasure territory for me. Most of the ending songs from GT are the same too, with the exception of Ending 4 which is genuinely awesome. And Romantic Ageru Yo from DB is also very cheesy.

And then there's also this moment from Z Movie 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

Personally I'd much rather someone walk in on me with "Krillin's in da hooouuse!!" playing than that scene. It would just feel extremely awkward.

I don't see what the song lyrics have to do with the actual dialogue.

You were criticizing the Z dub for being cheesy. I pointed out the Japanese version is very cheesy in its own way too. Those songs and lyrics are part of the product and part of the experience people get when they watch it, so they shouldn't be disregarded.

[ABED]

I never heard any menace from Young's performance. I heard someone attempting to sound menacing. And I can't help but think that the people who claim the cheesy jokes adds a creepy contrast to Freeza's brutality have to convince themselves of that. While it COULD be a choice that works, it requires better writing and acting. It could work if Michael Madsen did it in a Tarantino movie, but it doesn't here. Freeza saying "Pop goes the weasel" comes across as goofy, not scary.

And really Freeza, you're then going to say "Pop goes the weasel" after murdering one of our protagonists?! I hope Goku wrecks you.

And you weren't rooting for Goku to kick the crap out of him before? Isn't him laughing at Kuririn's death already enough sadistic glee? FUNi didn't have to resort to lame insults and undercut the moment.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I never heard any menace from Young's performance. I heard someone attempting to sound menacing. And I can't help but think that the people who claim the cheesy jokes adds a creepy contrast to Freeza's brutality have to convince themselves of that. While it COULD be a choice that works, it requires better writing and acting.

Exactly. If Linda Young had been the choice for the Kai dub, assuming her vocal output is similar to how it was in Z, I wouldn't be thrilled, but it would probably be fine. No doubt that Young's original problems are usually the fault of poor direction, same as everything else in that dub.

[jjgp1112]

A lot of people happen to like cheesy stuff though. And in fairness the Japanese version seems to have its own brand of cheese going on a lot of the time, particularly in some of the movie songs.

I couldn't find a video with the lyrics, but this ending song from movie 4 has some seriously cheesy over the top lyrics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3v241aPsDU

And then there's Dan Dan from GT essentially being a corny love song that sounds like it was written by a teenage girl. It's a catchy tune, but is very much in guilty pleasure territory for me. Most of the ending songs from GT are the same too, with the exception of Ending 4 which is genuinely awesome. And Romantic Ageru Yo from DB is also very cheesy.

And then there's also this moment from Z Movie 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafO9dKkej0

Personally I'd much rather someone walk in on me with "Krillin's in da hooouuse!!" playing than that scene. It would just feel extremely awkward.

I don't see what the song lyrics have to do with the actual dialogue.

You were criticizing the Z dub for being cheesy. I pointed out the Japanese version is very cheesy in its own way too. Those songs and lyrics are part of the product and part of the experience people get when they watch it, so they shouldn't be disregarded.

They're just songs. 9 times out of 10 I'm skipping them. They're irrelevant to the actual story.

[Bansho64]

You were criticizing the Z dub for being cheesy. I pointed out the Japanese version is very cheesy in its own way too. Those songs and lyrics are part of the product and part of the experience people get when they watch it, so they shouldn't be disregarded.

Honestly, I saw maybe one thing that actually has some real cheese to it out of all the stuff you chose. A better label for some of the songs would be to call them "90's" songs more than anything. And, honestly, I really only think that applies to possibly one of the ending songs.

You seem to be grasping at straws.