A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:59 pm

You see why when we describe beliefs, organized or otherwise, we don't carve out space for the radical version
It's not radical. It's a logical result of bad ideas. The 22 year olds you are talking about is just one way it manifests itself.
The last half-page of discussion is lightyears away from anything substantial
Off topic perhaps, but hardly unsubstantial.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Cipher » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:20 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:This actually happened during the Bolshevik revolution and later on in Soviet Union.

Do we know any other situations, where other radical stances you mentioned were applied on mass scale in the 20th-21st century?
(I have no idea how to write what I mean using proper English ... -_-)
...The top is taken from U.S. news right in the here and now, and the second is an equally popular (terrible) viewpoint at present in the U.S.

Even the third could be a real argument against the extreme U.S. fiscal rightwing who argue for near total repeal of social programs (to the extent that, yes, those without means would more likely die).

It's reductive in all cases to boil a principal or belief down to those groups or extreme versions.

...Were you trying to imply, through contrast, by the way, that in the 20th or 21st century there's never been violence in the name of either a socially conservative or free-market state?

(None of this has anything to do with cultural appropriation at this point.)
ABED wrote:It's not radical. It's a logical result of bad ideas. The 22 year olds you are talking about is just one way it manifests itself.
Nearly every viewpoint or belief has examples of poor extremist application taken to their far logical ends (and you're lucky if they only come in the form of over-eager 22-year-olds instead of actual lobbying or legal power). Are we obligated to address those at length every time we present the core ideas behind a social belief, or is that requirement reserved solely for progressive stances for some reason?

We don't discuss ideas in terms of their wildest extremes because it isn't representative and takes conversation in circles, as we're in right now. If you agreed with the non-absurd applications of addressing cultural appropriation I laid out two posts ago, then we're on the same page and we're done. Responses focusing on application in the extreme are intellectually dishonest; you're arguing against a boogeyman that's never been present in this thread.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:29 pm

That's hardly the wildest extreme of those ideas. How is this talk in a dishonest way? What I don't like about the tone and content of your last post is what I don't like about how people talk about politics in general. They try to marginalize their opponent as extremist and cut off any conversation.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Cipher » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:35 pm

ABED wrote:That's hardly the wildest extreme of those ideas. How is this talk in a dishonest way?
Because rather than address the practical application of the idea (either to agree or disagree in a substantial way), you immediately went to the place of, "Yes, but this extreme exists."

Which it does, for everything. There's not a single social stance someone could present where I couldn't say, "Well, yes, but in the extreme..." No one was advocating for it. You ignored the substance and went straight for an extremist version to keep an argument going

I agree; taking the idea too far is bad. Sometimes 19-year-olds get too worked up about newly discovered social beliefs. In other news, water is wet. We can all move on.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:44 pm

Cipher wrote:
ABED wrote:That's hardly the wildest extreme of those ideas. How is this talk in a dishonest way?
Because rather than address the practical application of the idea (either to agree or disagree in a substantial way), you immediately went to the place of, "Yes, but this extreme exists."

Which it does, for everything. There's not a single social stance someone could present where I couldn't say, "Well, yes, but in the extreme..." No one was advocating for it. You ignored the substance and wen't straight for an extremist version to keep an argument going

I agree; taking the idea too far is bad. Sometimes 19-year-olds get too worked up about newly discovered social beliefs. In other news, water is wet. We can all move on.
I didn't put it in those terms because I don't think it's extreme, sadly. It's hardly just teens. And I don't even use the term "extreme". It's one of those words that's lost its meaning. It's emotionally charged, often used to smear someone, and lacks substance. Extreme compared to what? And you keep saying "no one", but there are. If you mean no one on here, then I would agree.

I don't use the term cultural appropriation as I think it's a package deal. The cultural aspect of a "weeaboo" isn't nearly as interesting to me as the psychological aspect and the pseudo-self esteem they get from it.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by PelicanDynasty » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:13 am

I definitely think this problem legitimately exists within the whole anime fandom; people do get attached to this stuff and flex like they're Japanese or know Japanese culture when they basically know a few cartoons and have played some video games.
EXBadguy wrote:A lot of crazy shit is going on, like the Evergreen College situation, white folks being banned from making tacos at some food truck stops, lyft driver bashed for having a hula doll in his car, social justice madness. All of this makes me wonder, if white subbies and otakus would get flak for cultural appropriation, so I'm wondering if any of you white subbies here were accused or criticized for appropriating Japanese culture for any reason. Now, the reason why I'm only asking the white ones is because in my experience, we minorities can get away with it (I say this as a black man). I've never seen any blacks or hispanics criticized for taking part in Japanese culture.

Anyway, discuss. And I recommend the mods to watch closely if this gets outta hand. And if so, I apologize.
Always thought this seems like it would be the case, but I'm also in NJ and to be honest I've never seen anyone in real life ever get ripped for this, period.

The whole thing seems strange to me and very case based, like others have said. You have things like soccer that have "no strings attached" (even the craziest anti-cultural appropriation folks would never call an American playing soccer an appropriation of English culture) and you have things like tacos, which many people claim was "stolen" (though once again I've never once heard anyone ever say this in real life). Is it basically all white dudes who say stuff like this? Cause I can't imagine a Mexican man that's mad about other people enjoying tacos.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kanassa » Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:24 am

PelicanDynasty wrote:Is it basically all white dudes who say stuff like this? Cause I can't imagine a Mexican man that's mad about other people enjoying tacos.
Not all, but a lot of the time it seems to be not the person who's 'supposed' to take offence to it. That's usually how it goes "Do not worry, I SHALL BE OFFENDED FOR YOU!" Reminds me of when Speedy Gonzalas was considered racist.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:54 am

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Cipher wrote:Liberalism is about killing the rich.
This actually happened during the Bolshevik revolution and later on in Soviet Union.
Soviets were the polar opposite of liberals, who are primarily concerned with individual liberty and thus small government and economic and social freedom.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:18 am

I think there's a clear line between showing appreciation for something and adopting styles and then trying to "be" that specific culture while knowing nothing beyond the base elements of whatever entertainment you consume from them and the baggage that comes with it. It's the old Paul Mooney adage - "Everybody wanna be a nigga, but don't nobody wanna be a nigga."

A white guy really likes rap and starts wearing braids, baggy clothes, etc? Cool, by all means. It's an aesthetic he likes and it looks cool. Culture is defined by a helluva lot more than fashion choices. But it's when it crosses the line to outright mimicry that it's a problem because oftentimes it results to reducing that culture to the stereotypes that people with your skin color have used to demean them. That's why you see black women get so furious when say, a white girl starts wearing dreads or lipstick to make her lips appear bigger, and suddenly that shit is trendy and lauded by middle America...even though black women were routinely mocked for that same stuff when that's naturally how they look! But now when somebody from the privileged, "favorable" culture puts it on as a costume it's okay now?

But to bring it back to the subject of this thread, it's the same thing. Some of these "weaboos" as they're called, oftentimes reduce Japanese culture simply to what they see in Anime. Now if they actually want to learn stuff about Japanese culture or simply just find the clothing and shit cool, fine. But when they go overboard and start using whatever Japanese phrases are frequently used in anime while speaking in exaggerated "Japanese" voices and think whatever anime characters they mimic puts them in touch with Japanese people it's strange at best, and completely insensitive at worst. We've seen ridiculous Asian stereotypes peddled in the American media with varying degrees of malice for decades now, and the stuff I see from Otaku reduces Japanese culture to stereotypes even though they mean well.

Centuries-old history of racial transgressions is what makes cultural appropriation such a touchy subject. I think it's silly when people yell "cultural appropriation" at surface-level shit but I understand where they're coming from, because oftentimes a simple appreciation falls down a slippery slope. And we keep seeing it happen so frequently that it becomes more difficult to trust.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by EXBadguy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:56 am

jjgp1112 wrote:I think there's a clear line between showing appreciation for something and adopting styles and then trying to "be" that specific culture while knowing nothing beyond the base elements of whatever entertainment you consume from them and the baggage that comes with it. It's the old Paul Mooney adage - "Everybody wanna be a nigga, but don't nobody wanna be a nigga."

A white guy really likes rap and starts wearing braids, baggy clothes, etc? Cool, by all means. It's an aesthetic he likes and it looks cool. Culture is defined by a helluva lot more than fashion choices. But it's when it crosses the line to outright mimicry that it's a problem because oftentimes it results to reducing that culture to the stereotypes that people with your skin color have used to demean them. That's why you see black women get so furious when say, a white girl starts wearing dreads or lipstick to make her lips appear bigger, and suddenly that shit is trendy and lauded by middle America...even though black women were routinely mocked for that same stuff when that's naturally how they look! But now when somebody from the privileged, "favorable" culture puts it on as a costume it's okay now?
Damn straight! That's also my stance on this whole issue.

Also, I'ma add a couple more points. One is when a person of another color or culture trying to steal prominence of a particular culture (i.e. Elvis being the king of Rock n' Roll, though I wouldn't bash him much cuz it wasn't his fault and he respected the black artists who created it). The other point is that some white women wanna tan so much to the point where...*ahem*..they don't wanna be considered white anymore due to white guilt.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:36 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Soviets were the polar opposite of liberals, who are primarily concerned with individual liberty and thus small government and economic and social freedom.
We are still calling free market advocates/libertarians/conservatives “liberals” here (more exact: classic liberals), but in America, this word was stolen by the left and now they are called liberals. I guess that Cipher was talking about Bolsheviks, when he said that “they want to kill the rich”, because that's exactly what Bolsheviks did (on MASSIVE scale).

(I forgot to answer: I am satisfied with Cipher's responses, and I didn't want to imply anything else that the scale of presented phenomenons)
Yes, it has nothing to do with cultural appropriation. To say something related to the topic, I will express my opinion about the entire discussion:
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by floofychan333 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:40 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Cipher wrote:Liberalism is about killing the rich.
This actually happened during the Bolshevik revolution and later on in Soviet Union.

Do we know any other situations, where other radical stances you mentioned were applied on mass scale in the 20th-21st century?
(I have no idea how to write what I mean using proper English ... -_-)
I'm sorry, but equating modern liberalism with communism makes absolutely no sense. I don't see liberals forcing everyone to forgo their identity so they can be indoctrinated by a party or thinking that getting rid of democracy is a good idea. Make no mistake, I strongly disapprove of neoliberalism, but it's the polar opposite of communism. I can tell you hate both but lumping everything you disagree with into one category is an absurd generalization. I, for example, hate communism and fascism, but despite the fact that they have far more similarities than commonly perceived I don't think they're the exact same thing because of the obvious economic ideological differences.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:43 pm

At their core, no Fascism and Communism are not different. They are both forms of collectivism, but Communism says the collective or the government owns all property. In Fascism, individuals own property but the government controls it.
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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:42 pm

floofychan333 wrote:I'm sorry, but equating modern liberalism with communism makes absolutely no sense. I don't see liberals forcing everyone to forgo their identity so they can be indoctrinated by a party or thinking that getting rid of democracy is a good idea. Make no mistake, I strongly disapprove of neoliberalism, but it's the polar opposite of communism. I can tell you hate both but lumping everything you disagree with into one category is an absurd generalization. I, for example, hate communism and fascism, but despite the fact that they have far more similarities than commonly perceived I don't think they're the exact same thing because of the obvious economic ideological differences.
People educated in post-Soviet bloc, who know the history of the Soviet bloc very well, have completely different approach to the matter. We not only analyzed the communist/socialist system, but we also experienced it on our own skin. Believe me - you can compare modern liberalism to old communism. They only stopped using mass terror and they do not confiscate private property (excluding Germany, where they take houses to place refugees there). Some experts say that what we are witnessing in the west is communist revolution, but it is carried on with the use of different methods (strategy suggested by Antonio Gramsci). We cannot discuss it without writing 100 large posts, so I suggest to just drop this topic. It does not make any sense for me to post my views on those issues, because it's not what this forum is about, I have totally different views than anybody here, and my points aren't even understood as I would like them to be.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Basaku » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote: People educated in post-Soviet bloc, who know the history of the Soviet bloc very well, have completely different approach to the matter. We not only analyzed the communist/socialist system, but we also experienced it on our own skin. Believe me - you can compare modern liberalism to old communism.
No "we" don't have a completly different approach compared to Western Europe/North America because we are not all the same and we don't even share the same approach among the collective group of former Soviet bloc countries.

You do realize there's a ton of people from Poland, Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc posting on these forums and not just you right? So don't speak for us, especially nonsense like this

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:27 pm

Basaku wrote:You do realize there's a ton of people from Poland, Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc posting on these forums and not just you right? So don't speak for us, especially nonsense like this
People educated in post-Soviet bloc DO have different approach to the matter, at least according to democratic counting standards (majority), and if they actually are educated. By different, I didn't mean conservative. I just meant - different.

If you want to read nonsense - check all your posts. You aren't intellectually capable of debating with me, so just stop troll biting me. I told you that I already resigned from my peaceful approach to the "agressive" left, so do not expect me to be nice (actually, I know some rational lefties with who it is possible to talk, but you aren't one of them). If you desperately want more debates - tell me where should I register and we will talk there.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Basaku » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:15 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Basaku wrote:You do realize there's a ton of people from Poland, Hungary, Czech, Slovakia etc posting on these forums and not just you right? So don't speak for us, especially nonsense like this
People educated in post-Soviet bloc DO have different approach to the matter, at least according to democratic counting standards (majority), and if they actually are educated. By different, I didn't mean conservative. I just meant - different.

If you want to read nonsense - check all your posts. You aren't intellectually capable of debating with me, so just stop troll biting me. I told you that I already resigned from my peaceful approach to the "agressive" left, so do not expect me to be nice (actually, I know some rational lefties with who it is possible to talk, but you aren't one of them). If you desperately want more debates - tell me where should I register and we will talk there.
No one was insulting you, cursing or was aggresive towards you. You're the only person in this thread who does all of this unprompted and if that wasn't enough you're putting words in other people's mouth trying to... insult yourself. On top of that, your justification for this is a claim that someone somewhere was rude/aggresive/insulting towards you and that somehow it inexplicably justifies every insult, posting unrelated political memes, aggresive behavior all around etc. Your entire arugment is "left is bad" and when "the left" doesn't do anythning bad towards you in this topic you throw in more insults (towards anyone who you percieve as a "leftie") and proclaim again how you alone don't have to abide to any netiquette, basic common courtesy or civilized discussion rules.

Mods?

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:30 pm

Basaku wrote:No one was insulting you, cursing or was aggresive towards you. You're the only person in this thread who does all of this and if that wasn't enough you're putting words in other people's mouth trying to... insult yourself. On top of that, your justification for this is a claim that someone somewhere was rude/aggresive/insulting towards you and that somehow it inexplicably justifies every insult, posting unrelated political memes, aggresive behavior all around etc. Your entire arugment is "left is bad" and when "the left" doesn't do anythning bad you throw in more insults towards them (or anyone who you percieve as a "leftie") and proclaim again how you alone don't have to abide to any netiquette, basic common courtesy or civilized discussion rules.
I haven't expected anything else. I posted my opinions, sometimes sharp - yes, but you were the one who jumped at me with your agressive comments and some kind of obsession with the meme I posted (you proved that you still have no idea what was its meaning). By the way, don't forbid me to have an opinion. This is what I think about most of the left and you. Your comments proved, that you are blinded by your ideology. My opinion about your intelligence was based on your interpretation of the meme I posted. By the way, many people used 1000x sharper language against me, and nobody protested. Where is the equality? Why you can call my opinions nonsene and I cannot respond similar way? But hey! "You can punch a Nazi!" Sorry, I forgot. This is the logic, which works here.

I told you that I am not interested in any discussions with you many times in the past, so you can blame yourself.
Basaku wrote:Mods?
SB family traditions? :lol:

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Basaku » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:43 pm

Kojiro Sasaki wrote: I haven't expected anything else. I posted my opinions, sometimes sharp - yes, but you were the one who jumped at me with your agressive comments and some kind of obsession with the meme I posted (you proved that you still have no idea what was its meaning). By the way, don't forbid me to have an opinion. This is what I think about most of the left and you. Your comments proved, that you are blinded by your ideology. My opinion about your intelligence was based on your interpretation of the meme I posted. By the way, many people used 1000x sharper language against me, and nobody protested. Where is the equality? Why you can call my opinions nonsene and I cannot respond similar way? But hey! "You can punch a Nazi!" Sorry, I forgot. This is the logic, which works here.

I told you that I am not interested in any discussions with you many times in the past, so you can blame yourself.
Unfortunately for you it's all in this thread and literally everyone can see that you're the only source of the insults directed towards yourself (and other people posting in the topic). This is getting just ridiculous.
Kojiro Sasaki wrote:
Basaku wrote:Mods?
SB family traditions? :lol:
Ohh look, what is this? Yet another insult coming from Kojiro Sasaki. To the mods, SB means Security Service of the former communist Poland's regime, resonsible for political murders, beatings, tortures, kidnappings etc of the opposition in the past century.

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Re: A question to the white subbies (don't worry it's not what you think)

Post by Kojiro Sasaki » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:06 am

Basaku wrote:Unfortunately for you it's all in this thread and literally everyone can see that you're the only source of the insults directed towards yourself (and other people posting in the topic). This is getting just ridiculous.
So let them read it and decide what to do. I told you, that I am not interested in any more discussions with you.
Basaku wrote:Ohh look, what is this? Yet another insult coming from Kojiro Sasaki. To the mods, SB means Security Service of the former communist Poland's regime, resonsible for political murders, beatings, tortures, kidnappings etc of the opposition in the past century.
Don't pretend, that you don't know what I was trying to say :P

You're absolutely right. It definitely is getting ridiculous. As I said in previous posts, I have my views, opinions and specific way of expressing my thoughts. As we all see - it does not work. The SB part is the best example that you are looking for hate and insults even in this kind of, I would say, joke. My intentions were obvious here (at least for me). That's why I said in one of my posts that we just simply cannot communicate and that it does not make any sense to continue this.

As I said before - I got insulted 100x heavier and nobody protested. I just responded to this without crying and that's all. I prefer to be attacked than to limit freedom of speech.

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