Who do people think that Goku is not a complex character?

[nickzambuto]

This criticism of Dragon Ball has become extremely widespread around the Internet, and is usually the go-to justification for anybody looking to hate on the series or Toriyama's talent as a writer. But I think the idea has become more of a meme than a genuine criticism. It's just a generally accepted idea with people rarely ever actually considering it, but if a person does consider it, unless they have very personalized definitions of "depth" versus "shallow", I don't see how they can honestly conclude that Goku is a one-note character. Goku is a complex character, because he is capable of experiencing and expressing a wide variety of emotions and feelings. He's not simply either constantly joyful and optimistic, or angry. We've seen complex emotions from Goku, like distrust, regret, indecision, and even insecurity.

And how can people say he has no character development? The Goku of the first episode is not at all the exact same as the Goku from the final episode, which is what people often say. The Goku of the final episode has learned so much and matured so immensely. Sure his personality retains many constants, but just because he is optimistic and carefree, does not mean he hasn't matured. This just shows that many people don't know what maturity is. But when Goku returned as an adult for the first time at the 23ed Budokai, he was almost a totally different person. He was calm, controlled, wise, focused. The word "zen" comes to mind. And all the characters even comment on how much Goku has changed, from the wild and ignorant boy he was last time they met. At the very least, if we have to cut out all the growing up development and only focus on more blatant character arcs, the whole thing about rejecting his saiyan heritage, accepting it on Namek, briefly embracing it when he becomes bloodthirsty as a Super Saiyan, and then making the conscious decision to deny those negative traits and not allow his heritage to define him by sparing Freeza's life, and finally combining his saiyan heritage with his Earthling morals and wisdom to master the Super Saiyan form and reach a level of power that no individual side could have possibly done alone, that's not only a pretty blatant character arc if you ask me (basically going from heated denial and shame, to acceptance and taking pride) but also a pretty complex one.

Now, I can understand if more casual fans never caught onto this arc that Goku goes through, and never caught on to the extremely wide-range of feelings Goku showcases because the dub dialogue often rewrote scenes to make Goku more perfect and heroic, but I've even seen people on Kanzenshuu make the claim that Goku isn't complex and has no character development. To those people, what does complexity mean to you?

[sintzu]

I don't know how to put things like this into words like you and others but in my mind, DB's writing and art (fights for example) are just as complex as any other shonen. This is not to say DB is like other shonen, it's different form Naruto, which is different from One Piece, which is different from HXH, ect. but all of them are complex in their own way that goes with their author's style.

[nickzambuto]

I don't know how to put things like this into words like you and others but in my mind, DB's writing and art (fights for example) are just as complex as any other shonen. This is not to say DB is like other shonen, it's different form Naruto, which is different from One Piece, which is different from HXH, ect. but all of them are complex in their own way that goes with their author's style.

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do. I can actually completely understand somebody thinking lowly of Dragon Ball, if that product is their only exposure. The problem is that even people here on Kanzenshuu seem to think that Dragon Ball is shallow.

[SaiyanGod117]

I don't know how to put things like this into words like you and others but in my mind

Just type what you feel as long as it genuine and makes sense it's all good. No need for Oxford essays with heavy and complex wording, as some of the best writers in the world have a pretty much simple and straightforward approach

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do. I can actually completely understand somebody thinking lowly of Dragon Ball, if that product is their only exposure. The problem is that even people here on Kanzenshuu seem to think that Dragon Ball is shallow.

This is most likely it, as for why some people think Goku has no character development.

[nickzambuto]

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do. I can actually completely understand somebody thinking lowly of Dragon Ball, if that product is their only exposure. The problem is that even people here on Kanzenshuu seem to think that Dragon Ball is shallow.

This is most likely it, as for why some people think Goku has no character development.

What is? The dub? But like I said, even people here subscribe to that idea, and anyone who makes a Kanzenshuu account is bound to be more than casual.

[Cetra]

I don't know how to put things like this into words like you and others but in my mind, DB's writing and art (fights for example) are just as complex as any other shonen. This is not to say DB is like other shonen, it's different form Naruto, which is different from One Piece, which is different from HXH, ect. but all of them are complex in their own way that goes with their author's style.

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do. I can actually completely understand somebody thinking lowly of Dragon Ball, if that product is their only exposure. The problem is that even people here on Kanzenshuu seem to think that Dragon Ball is shallow.

I know the manga and the anime. In Japanese and in German. And I still think Dragon Ball is shallow, bar some moments and in particular anime Zamasu. I am an RPGer though so I am used to more writing and character development because of certain games.

[sintzu]

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do.

I think what causes is it is DB's simple nature, each arc is pretty self contained in that it doesn't try to establish future events but rather builds on old ones and focuses exclusively on what it's doing. On Namek for example, everything was about Freeza and the dragon balls, we didn't cut to Babidi searching for Buu, Gero creating the androids, Beerus destroying a planet, etc. That doesn't mean DB isn't complex, it's just not complicated which I think a lot of people mix up.

A common thing to say about DB is that it's just fights and explosions but that's not the case. Let's take Goku for example as this topic focuses on him. Goku starts out as a kid not knowing anything about the world to the point where he doesn't even know what a bad guy is but as the story goes on he learns about them and that he has to protect his family. we see him being trained by 4 masters then on the way to Namek he finally trains himself before becoming a teacher and teaching his son.

[nickzambuto]

I want to blame it on the dub, I really do.

I think what causes is it is DB's simple nature, each arc is pretty self contained in that it doesn't try to establish future events but rather builds on old ones and focuses exclusively on what it's doing. On Namek for example, everything was about Freeza and the dragon balls, we didn't cut to Babidi searching for Buu, Gero creating the androids, Beerus destroying a planet, etc. That doesn't mean DB isn't complex, it's just not complicated which I think a lot of people mix up.

A common thing to say about DB is that it's just fights and explosions but that's not the case. Let's take Goku for example as this topic focuses on him. Goku starts out as a kid not knowing anything about the world to the point where he doesn't even know what a bad guy is but as the story goes on he learns about them and that he has to protect his family. we see him being trained by 4 masters then on the way to Namek he finally trains himself before becoming a teacher and teaching his son.

You have a point there. It's a known fact that Toriyama wrote everything off the seam of his pants and didn't consciously try and make his work stand for something. People hear this fact and equate it to Dragon Ball can't be a well written story, just because its author didn't try to. But the only thing this proves is Toriyama's natural talent as a writer, he's so organic that he wrote Goku as if Goku were a real person, and accounted for the changes and growth Goku would go through as a result of his experiences, without even needing to think about it. It all happened naturally.

[sintzu]

It's a known fact that Toriyama wrote everything off the seam of his pants and didn't consciously try and make his work stand for something. People hear this fact and equate it to Dragon Ball can't be a well written story, just because its author didn't try to.

I don't know if you watch Geekdom 101's videos but he has a series called the themes of dragon ball (Each arc in Z gets its own video) which not only point out what a great writier Toriyama is but prove that Z in particular is just as complex as any other story and isn't just about the fighting like what many say.

In terms of his style, it's just that, a style. each artist and medium has their own style and it doesn't mean one is better than the other. what works for one probably won't work for the other. what should be judged is the product itself, not how it came to be.

[nickzambuto]

It's a known fact that Toriyama wrote everything off the seam of his pants and didn't consciously try and make his work stand for something. People hear this fact and equate it to Dragon Ball can't be a well written story, just because its author didn't try to.

I don't know if you watch Geekdom 101's videos but he has a series called the themes of dragon ball (Each arc in Z gets its own video) which not only point out what a great writier Toriyama is but prove that Z in particular is just as complex as any other story and isn't just about the fighting like what many say.

That is a fantastic series by Geekdom. I wish he did more videos like that instead of just reactions and news. Every Dragon Ball channel is overrun with Super content, and since there's something new every week, nobody ever takes the time to go deep like they used to. That's why MistareFusion is still my favorite, even though he's slower than a drop of molasses dripping down a turtle's shell.

And yes, I know he posts here. I'm hoping that he sees this, and then kicks it into high gear.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

The word complex is a vague and catchy term that people use a lot without giving reasons. And, it is for some reason considered synonymous with good. That is not the case always.

There is no set definition of a complex character imo. I have my own definitions. For me, complexity comes from an unpredictable character or a character who never actually reveals his goals or is very vague. He keeps the audience guessing. Kusuriuri from Mononoke is the perfect example. The air of mystery around him never goes away. Itachi kind of fits that as well. That's complex stuff for me. That is just one definition.

Human psychology is another interesting aspect to me. Ikari Shinji from Shin Seiki Evangelion brings that aspect to life. Not only is his condition relatable to many people, but is also very interesting to see where and how the character struggle ends. Atleast for me, it was. That is another definition of complex for me.

Son Gokuu is not unpredictable. He has his goals crystally clearly defined. It is a very important part of his personality. Dragon Ball never even tries to attempt at human psychology, so that's that. The series doesn't really fit into what I personally view as complex. Neither the characters, nor the world. Oh, yeah the world can also define complexity for me. Like, the Ghost in the Shell world for example.

As I have already said, being complex doesn't automatically translate to good and being simple can be just as good, if not better. Son Gokuu is fine as is. I don't agree with the one note complaints as well. He is atleast two dimensional. DBS Gokuu has got problems though.

[Doctor.]

This is a bit difficult to explain and I'm definitely no expert on the subject, but I'll try to give my understanding. People, or perhaps more appropriately, more casual fans with little understanding of literary criticism use the term "complex character" almost like a buzzword to either praise or discredit a certain series. It serves as a way to say something impressive without saying anything at all. But you hardly ever see critics and writers use this term (I may be mistaken, at least I barely see it; like I said, I'm no expert on the subject). Rather they use the terms "round" and "dynamic". A round character is one with a realistic personality, with their own inner turmoil, capable of showcasing contradictory traits throughout the story. A dynamic character is simply a character that develops with time. A character can be both round and dynamic, they're not mutually exclusive. When people talk about "complex" characters, they talk more oftenly about round characters, since those are the ones that showcase the most layers to their personality. Goku most definitely is not a round character; the closest he came to having any kind of inner conflict was during the Freeza fight and he overcame that pretty quickly and stuck to his ideals and values. He's a dynamic character, though. His development was subtle, but it's there.

So, guessing at what you and others mean by "complex", Goku is no such character.

There are also two other terms you may come across: flat and static, which are in opposition to round and dynamic respectively. He's not flat because it isn't one or two traits that define him; a main character almost can't be flat by default. A lot of people claim Goku is a static character because his personality remains largely the same throughout the story, but they miscategorize him because they ignore some of the more nuanced and subtle changes you've mentioned. I think he's a difficult character to categorize, Goku can fit both descriptions depending on how you choose to interpret the character. Super!Goku is definitely static, though.

In my experience, there are two groups of people that usually claim Goku isn't a complex character.

a) The people with a limited understanding of the series and what these terms mean and just use it to discredit the series. They may be right but they're coming from a position of ignorance;
b) The people who actually have a good understanding of the series and what the terms mean. Some are genuine fans. Others are those snobby elite types that like to discredit the series. They may be right in their claims, but they're coming from a position of elitism and malice.

The terms one, two and three-dimensional also tie into this and are other terms severely misused and misinterpreted by the Internet, but going over them would add yet another layer of complexity to this discussion.

[nickzambuto]

This is a bit difficult to explain and I'm definitely no expert on the subject, but I'll try to give my understanding. People, or perhaps more appropriately, more casual fans with little understanding of literary criticism use the term "complex character" almost like a buzzword to either praise or discredit a certain series. It serves as a way to say something impressive without saying anything at all. But you hardly ever see critics and writers use this term (I may be mistaken, at least I barely see it; like I said, I'm no expert on the subject). Rather they use the terms "round" and "dynamic". A round character is one with a realistic personality, with their own inner turmoil, capable of showcasing contradictory traits throughout the story. A dynamic character is simply a character that develops with time. A character can be both round and dynamic, they're not mutually exclusive. When people talk about "complex" characters, they talk more oftenly about round characters, since those are the ones that showcase the most layers to their personality. Goku most definitely is not a round character; the closest he came to having any kind of inner conflict was during the Freeza fight and he overcame that pretty quickly and stuck to his ideals and values. He's a dynamic character, though. His development was subtle, but it's there.

So, guessing at what you and others mean by "complex", Goku is no such character.

There are also two other terms you may come across: flat and static, which are in opposition to round and dynamic respectively. He's not flat because it isn't one or two traits that define him; a main character almost can't be flat by default. A lot of people claim Goku is a static character because his personality remains largely the same throughout the story, but they miscategorize him because they ignore some of the more nuanced and subtle changes you've mentioned. I think he's a difficult character to categorize, Goku can fit both descriptions depending on how you choose to interpret the character. Super!Goku is definitely static, though.

In my experience, there are two groups of people that usually claim Goku isn't a complex character.

a) The people with a limited understanding of the series and what these terms mean and just use it to discredit the series. They may be right but they're coming from a position of ignorance;
b) The people who actually have a good understanding of the series and what the terms mean. Some are genuine fans. Others are those snobby elite types that like to discredit the series. They may be right in their claims, but they're coming from a position of elitism and malice.

The terms one, two and three-dimensional also tie into this and are other terms severely misused and misinterpreted by the Internet, but going over them would add yet another layer of complexity to this discussion.

Killer post. Let's keep the discussion going.

I agree with all of the separate pieces of your post here, but I just think your definition of round is too specific. I even did some research on the term to refresh myself, and Goku meets all of the qualifications. Most notably, he's defined well enough to experience a wide variety of emotions and a wide variety of reactions, even contradictory or surprising ones, to various situations. Round characters are basically meant to feel like they are actually alive and have their own minds, whereas flat characters only serve one or a few specific roles and therefore can not express the full spectrum of human emotion. We've seen Goku express just about every combination of emotions, even complex ones, and his reactions aren't always what one would expect. This makes it seem like he is alive and actually thinking.

And Goku is extremely contradictory, his actions surprise viewers all the time. That's why we have an entire forum's worth of discussion on every event within the series. The two large examples would be the normally purehearted and kind boy, typically without any malice to speak of, being consumed with grief and rage and resolving to murder the demons who killed his friend. Even Goku's friends in the story were surprised at his behavior. Then, when once again overcome with rage and given every possible reason to rid the universe of its greatest evil, he instead goes out of his way to spare him. That's very unexpected, and people are still debating to this day why exactly Goku did that, and why he was shaking after finally blasting Freeza. Sending Gohan in to defeat Cell for him was a very unexpected decision. We know that Goku could have trained further and he could have fought with everything he had, and that's what we expected, but it turns out that Goku had a desire for his son to surpass him, and, at least at that time, becoming stronger was not the first thing on his mind. That sounds pretty "round" to me, if round means having a wide variety of feelings and contradictory actions.

The only criteria that he doesn't meet, is your own specification that a round character has to experience inner turmoil. And that's true, but that doesn't stop Goku from feeling alive. It just showcases his traits, that he is clear and ambitious enough to always take action in order to fix a problem. Even then, I feel this still isn't giving Goku enough credit, because wouldn't the uncontrollable rage and grief he felt at his best friend's murder qualify as inner turmoil? Roshi screamed and even ordered Goku not to run off, but Goku was not able to control himself, and thus he was punished for it. But just because Hamlet spent his whole story obsessing over his inner turmoil, does not make him a smarter or better written character than Goku, who experiences turmoil but takes immediate action to remedy his problems.

[Captain Strawberry]

Just look at this face

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's open to interpretation as far as I know what this face means but it shows Goku was conflicted. Maybe Goku really did want to kill Frieza even if it was for the sake of justice (putting the bad to an end), he just couldn't do it. For whatever ulterior motive, maybe he wasn't satisfied? Maybe he couldn't be like a Demon like Frieza and kill him off? Perhaps some complex emotions here...

[nickzambuto]

Just look at this face

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's open to interpretation as far as I know what this face means but it shows Goku was conflicted. Maybe Goku really did want to kill Frieza even if it was for the sake of justice (putting the bad to an end), he just couldn't do it. For whatever ulterior motive, maybe he wasn't satisfied? Maybe he couldn't be like a Demon like Frieza and kill him off? Perhaps some complex emotions here...

The full page also shows Goku's hands are shaking. Shaking from fatigue? Hey, it's possible. Or... maybe they're shaking for a different reason...

[ABED]

But when Goku returned as an adult for the first time at the 23ed Budokai, he was almost a totally different person. He was calm, controlled, wise, focused.

I think he matured a little over time, but the two tournaments are very different. In the first one, Goku was going to fight in a fun tournament. In the 23rd, he had a mission against an enemy that wanted to kill him and everyone else. He's not a completely different person.

a round character has to experience inner turmoil. And that's true

Is it?

I think Goku is a very simple character, but simple doesn't mean cardboard. He has understandable motivations, but very unusual one's. He wants to be the absolute best martial artist he can be, to the point that he neglects his family, but he doesn't outright abandon them and not care for them. He will put the world at jeopardy for the sake of a fight, while at the same time doesn't do so out of insecurity or malice.

[sintzu]

Just look at this face

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's open to interpretation as far as I know what this face means but it shows Goku was conflicted. Maybe Goku really did want to kill Frieza even if it was for the sake of justice (putting the bad to an end), he just couldn't do it. For whatever ulterior motive, maybe he wasn't satisfied? Maybe he couldn't be like a Demon like Frieza and kill him off? Perhaps some complex emotions here...

The full page also shows Goku's hands are shaking. Shaking from fatigue? Hey, it's possible. Or... maybe they're shaking for a different reason...

I think it shows sadness at Freeza's death, showing that after everything he did, he still didn't want to take his life but was forced to.

[Captain Strawberry]

Just look at this face

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's open to interpretation as far as I know what this face means but it shows Goku was conflicted. Maybe Goku really did want to kill Frieza even if it was for the sake of justice (putting the bad to an end), he just couldn't do it. For whatever ulterior motive, maybe he wasn't satisfied? Maybe he couldn't be like a Demon like Frieza and kill him off? Perhaps some complex emotions here...

The full page also shows Goku's hands are shaking. Shaking from fatigue? Hey, it's possible. Or... maybe they're shaking for a different reason...

I think it shows sadness at Freeza's death, showing that after everything he did, he still didn't want to take his life but was forced to.

This is also a contrast to how kid Goku brutally slaughtered the Red Ribbon and even didn't show mercy to those who were running away (maybe this is part of the reason why he doesn't use the power pole?)

[sintzu]

maybe this is part of the reason why he doesn't use the power pole?

He doesn't because it's stuck between where Korin lives and the lookout.

[Captain Strawberry]

maybe this is part of the reason why he doesn't use the power pole?

He doesn't because it's stuck between where Korin lives and the lookout.

I thought it became a sort of forgotten point of the series, since they can fly and whatnot