Stakes

[ABED]

From the thread about a possible movie next year, a discussion arose about the nature of stakes in DB and storytelling in general. Perhaps I'm not being as clear as I think, but I do believe stakes matter. However, I don't think the ever rising stakes in DB matter nearly as much as personal stakes. Putting the world in jeopardy isn't a selling point nor is it a shortcut for emotionally connecting to the story. Case in point, the idea of one of the universes dying doesn't particularly draw me in. The scale and the body count will be huge, but it doesn't get me on an emotional level like the old couple in the Buu arc that were killed by that heartless dickhead sniper and his butler. What say you all?

[PelicanDynasty]

Agree 100% that bodycount =/= stakes.

The 22nd Tournament was tense without the world being in danger; it was personal and nasty, the heroes were certainly fighting for more than personal pride, but the Earth was not in danger.

That being said, I don't know if they could properly pull that off now, it's tough to reduce the stakes back down to that level once the world has blown up six times without it seeming a bit trivial.

[Bullza]

The world or humanity or even a single life being in danger is a selling point. That's why they keep doing it. Not just in Dragon Ball either.

Of the many many arcs that they have had in this franchise only the 21st and 22nd World Tournament sagas and the Universe Survival saga have strayed from that.

Of the 19 Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z movies that they made and the 2 TV movies, not a single one of them has strayed from that.

It's clearly important and something that sells.

[ABED]

Stakes in and of themselves don't sell, otherwise disaster movies would always be successful.

The world or humanity or even a single life being in danger is a selling point.
1 - It's not the only stake.
2 - Every hack producer says "up the stakes" without understanding what it really means
3 - It's the characters that make the stakes matter, not the other way around. It's a bit of a symbiotic relationship, but if you don't care about the characters, then putting their lives in danger won't matter to the audience and thus won't sell.

Any writer can put the world in peril, but that doesn't mean the audience will actually care. In the very first arc, if Pilaf got his wish, the world would suffer under his incompetent rule, but that didn't make it a compelling story. In the first GT arc, which many of you are fond of pointing out didn't work creatively, the Earth was at stake.

[Bullza]

It's not the only stake.

No that's three different stakes which they have used either one or a combination of them for the overwhelming vast majority of this story.

If it's something that they have done time and time and time and time and time and time and time again then there's a reason for it. It works, it's a proven success, it sells.

It doesn't mean that they can't do something different. Toriyama did say that after Battle of Gods and Resurrection which were pretty intense he wanted a fun story. Nothing wrong with that here and there as long it's for the series but in the end audiences won't find it nearly as interesting.

Super has had two Tournaments, one where nothing about it mattered in the slightest and the other where universes and characters are going to be wiped out upon losing. So you'd find most would find the latter far more interesting.

[ABED]

If it's something that they have done time and time and time and time and time and time and time again then there's a reason for it. It works, it's a proven success, it sells.

Not in a vacuum. If people don't care about the characters, why would they care if the characters save the world, especially in a story that isn't about saving the world?

And yes, it has been done time and time and time again, but that says nothing about the quality of those examples. Your logic is ad hoc ergo propter hoc.

Super has had two Tournaments, one where nothing about it mattered in the slightest and the other where universes and characters are going to be wiped out upon losing. So you'd find most would find the latter far more interesting.

Absent execution, you can't really say that for a fact.

If you put a character's life in danger, that won't make the audience care about them. The audience has to care about the character for them to care about the danger to his or her life.

[BlueBasilisk]

I feel like something with personal stakes is the way to go now for a compelling story. Blowing up the world has lost all its razzle dazzle now that Buu and Frieza have done it and the threat level has been raised to Universal. Death is virtually meaningless, blowing up the Earth is meaningless, and the Universe being destroyed is such a broad threat it borders on abstract and doesn't pack the punch that it should.

[ABED]

Keeping the scale small is often better. It's easier to connect if the scale and the stakes are smaller and closer to our characters. It doesn't always have to be close to our heroes, but keeping things smaller can be more impactful. The classic example I use is in the Buu arc. Buu destroying those cities and turning people to candy meant less than Mr. Satan's dog almost dying or that sniper shooting the old couple. Those tug on the heartstrings.

[Bullza]

And yes, it has been done time and time and time again, but that says nothing about the quality of those examples. Your logic is ad hoc ergo propter hoc.

Well that doesn't have anything to do with it, quality is irrelevant here. Toriyama and Toei choose to keep doing this, they choose to constantly have stories where peoples lives and planets are at risk. There's a reason why this is a plot device in the vast majority of the story.

So why do you think, that despite the sheer amount of possibilities that Toriyama and Toei could come up with, do they keep using this same plot device of lives at risk over and over again?

If you put a character's life in danger, that won't make the audience care about them. The audience has to care about the character for them to care about the danger to his or her life.

We all know that people have found the Universe Survival saga more interesting and worthy of discussion because of the consequences of what's going to happen when compared to the Universe 6 saga. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[Kinokima]

Well this is all of course personal preference but despite being a lot more humorous and I could tell Beerus wasn’t evil I still enjoyed BOG a lot more than ROF. ROF May of had more stakes but BOG had the stronger character moments for me.


And while I cannot really judge until this current arc is over I also enjoyed the U6 tournament arc more than the current TOP. I thought the U6 arc had better and more interesting fights and because we were being introduced to less characters I felt more connected to them than I am feeling to the overly large cast of the TOP.

So higher stakes in my opinion don’t necessarily make a more compelling story.

[ABED]

the consequences of what's going to happen

Consequences we likely won't care about because we don't know those other universes.

[TheBigBoy]

Need a threat whose aftermath can't be easily resolved by the Dragon Balls.

[Forte224]

the consequences of what's going to happen

Consequences we likely won't care about because we don't know those other universes.

Yeah but we know Universe 7, and the stakes are high because the Dragon Balls or even the Super Dragon Balls won't do jack squat. Before the tournament, Zeno already was going to destroy 8 universes. With the suggestion of the tournament from unknowing Goku, now one of those 8 get to survive. Now, if the surviving universe tries to bring one or any universes back with the Super Dragon Balls, they'll just be destroyed again because Zeno wills it. It's finally a story that the Dragon Balls can't fix. Even though we're pretty sure U7 (and U6 for that matter) will survive somehow, that's not different than any other show where we know the protagonists will come out on top. In my opinion the current ToP arc has raised the stakes higher than they've been in quite some time.

As regards emotional stakes, we have seen (and probably will see more of) the stakes of our well known U7 warriors basically killing innocent people, almost becoming villains in a way. When U10 is eliminated, Gohan sees a locket the last U10 fighter he fought was wearing and it was of his family that just got erased along with him. Gohan seems very disturbed by this. I don't need to know who U10 is for that to be high stakes for the characters. I know he had a family and I know that family is now dead partly because of Gohan. I'm interested to see how they handle the rest of the tournament if they'll touch on those type of aspects anymore. Really, the morality of the characters is at stake.

[ABED]

If I wasn't bothered by the destruction of Earth in the Buu arc, an entire universe won't get me either. Yes, the stakes are super high, but why do we care?

[Forte224]

If I wasn't bothered by the destruction of Earth in the Buu arc, an entire universe won't get me either. Yes, the stakes are super high, but why do we care?

By that logic, why care about anything? Why care about the old couple that got shot in the Boo arc?

[ABED]

If I wasn't bothered by the destruction of Earth in the Buu arc, an entire universe won't get me either. Yes, the stakes are super high, but why do we care?

By that logic, why care about anything? Why care about the old couple that got shot in the Boo arc?

It's hard to explain but the sheer size of the Earth's destruction just doesn't make the moment land, whereas the old couple are just two people and it brings the violence down to a very concrete/personal level. It's more visceral.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

If I wasn't bothered by the destruction of Earth in the Buu arc, an entire universe won't get me either. Yes, the stakes are super high, but why do we care?

By that logic, why care about anything? Why care about the old couple that got shot in the Boo arc?

It's hard to explain but the sheer size of the Earth's destruction just doesn't make the moment land, whereas the old couple are just two people and it brings the violence down to a very concrete/personal level. It's more visceral.

I can understand that, Buu going around turning people into candy, you can laugh because it's absurd. When the old couple get sniped from two ass hats, then it feels more realistic. I remember I felt bad for that couple because that can truly happen compared to hundreds if people being turned into candy which can't happen.

[Meshack]

It's not the only stake.

No that's three different stakes which they have used either one or a combination of them for the overwhelming vast majority of this story.

If it's something that they have done time and time and time and time and time and time and time again then there's a reason for it. It works, it's a proven success, it sells.

It doesn't mean that they can't do something different. Toriyama did say that after Battle of Gods and Resurrection which were pretty intense he wanted a fun story. Nothing wrong with that here and there as long it's for the series but in the end audiences won't find it nearly as interesting.

Super has had two Tournaments, one where nothing about it mattered in the slightest and the other where universes and characters are going to be wiped out upon losing. So you'd find most would find the latter far more interesting.

What? The Earths would have been switched. That would mean no Shin, no Kibito, no familiarity with the Nameccians, no contact with North Kaioh, Beerus and Whis are no longer around, Freeza would not be able to be revived or couldn’t be in the plot any longer, and other things that could have been lost if the Earths were switched.

[Bullza]

What? The Earths would have been switched. That would mean no Shin, no Kibito, no familiarity with the Nameccians, no contact with North Kaioh, Beerus and Whis are no longer around, Freeza would not be able to be revived or couldn’t be in the plot any longer, and other things that could have been lost if the Earths were switched.

Well that didn't seem too important to Goku because he said it didn't really matter if they lost which caused Beerus to get angry at him.

[Forte224]

If I wasn't bothered by the destruction of Earth in the Buu arc, an entire universe won't get me either. Yes, the stakes are super high, but why do we care?

By that logic, why care about anything? Why care about the old couple that got shot in the Boo arc?

It's hard to explain but the sheer size of the Earth's destruction just doesn't make the moment land, whereas the old couple are just two people and it brings the violence down to a very concrete/personal level. It's more visceral.

So what you're saying is, earth or universal destruction will just never work for you as a compelling story in any way shape or form?