The Problem with Gohan

[ABED]

Jeez, I just gave one example of a character that is massively passive, but still has agency when the occasion calls for it. I already gave you other examples for the lead.

I'm not insulting you but your counter example isn't a great counterpoint. Passive characters have their place, but Gohan was the lead. Kalifa is not. It's not the same thing.

And to reiterate, Gohan is not the lead.

We've been down that road before and even if you were right, Gohan plays a VITAL role. I know what you'll say, so did Vegeta, but Gohan is the one that defeats Cell. He's the strongest and the key to the victory. Why you are splitting hairs over this, I don't know. He's sure as hell more important to that arc than Kalifa is. If Gohan is just there for Goku to lead, that makes Gohan passive, so you aren't helping your point.

Did I gave you the impression that I don't know what a passive character is?
I could start asking if you wouldn't think the term reactive would be more appropriate since passive and reactive aren't exactly the same thing, but damn didn't I want this discussion to branch out further, because I got the gist of your post

One of your examples is Frodo! He has a goal, he's the main character, and he does make active choices that affect the outcome of the story.

Okay, if you think reactive is more appropriate, what's the distinction between passive and reactive?

[Michsi]

Passiveness implies a far more meek personality, a weak will (Berthold from AOT) whereas reactive is still a character that depends on outside factors but can still have a strong presence (Mikasa from AOT). That's my interpretation.

[ABED]

Meak might be a factor, but regardless of whatever reason, the character either doesn't have a concrete goal or doesn't actively take steps to get it. It would be like if a romcom had a character that just had love come to them at them without taking any steps throughout the story. If the story did have another character who did have goals and took the effort to get what they wanted instead of having it handed to them, the story picked the wrong protagonist.

Reactive is also part of being passive. It's not so much that outside factors don't play a part, it's that they pretty much are the only factors that play the part.

[Michsi]

Here's where it all comes down to in the end, and what I always say is the most important aspect of storytelling.

Execution.

Passive, active, reactive, bipolar - what you do with it and how it fits in the story is what matters. To me, Gohan being a reactive/passive or whatever character didn't bother me, because the story made use of that passiveness in an interesting way. If it was supposed to highlight just how different he was from his father, than it did that job well. The Cell arc has many problems, and when it comes to Gohan what I seen more was about how out-of-the blue his importance was and about a him suddenly being a pacifist (which I always say is wrong and think this misconception is due to the first dub)

[Puaru]

Gohan sucks.

[ABED]

Here's where it all comes down to in the end, and what I always say is the most important aspect of storytelling.

Execution.

Passive, active, reactive, bipolar - what you do with it and how it fits in the story is what matters. To me, Gohan being a reactive/passive or whatever character didn't bother me, because the story made use of that passiveness in an interesting way. If it was supposed to highlight just how different he was from his father, than it did that job well. The Cell arc has many problems, and when it comes to Gohan what I seen more was about how out-of-the blue his importance was and about a him suddenly being a pacifist (which I always say is wrong and think this misconception is due to the first dub)

But passive is a big part of the execution, and I don't think many are that interested in a main character in long form storytelling who things just happen to and who doesn't take an active enough role in the story.

Passive can be used in interesting ways, especially if it's an arc, but it can only be sustained for so long, and even then... For instance, I enjoy Clerks, but I could only stand Dante as the main character for so long.

I don't mind that Gohan is different, but his role in the story detracted a lot from my overall enjoyment of it on a number of fronts.

[Michsi]

Here's where it all comes down to in the end, and what I always say is the most important aspect of storytelling.

Execution.

Passive, active, reactive, bipolar - what you do with it and how it fits in the story is what matters. To me, Gohan being a reactive/passive or whatever character didn't bother me, because the story made use of that passiveness in an interesting way. If it was supposed to highlight just how different he was from his father, than it did that job well. The Cell arc has many problems, and when it comes to Gohan what I seen more was about how out-of-the blue his importance was and about a him suddenly being a pacifist (which I always say is wrong and think this misconception is due to the first dub)

But passive is a big part of the execution, and I don't think many are that interested in a main character in long form storytelling who things just happen to and who doesn't take an active enough role in the story.

Passive can be used in interesting ways, especially if it's an arc, but it can only be sustained for so long, and even then... For instance, I enjoy Clerks, but I could only stand Dante as the main character for so long.

I don't mind that Gohan is different, but his role in the story detracted a lot from my overall enjoyment of it on a number of fronts.

Most aren't, which is why there aren't that many in the end, however since Gohan is not the main character, that shouldn't count as an issue here. It's true that there is barely any build-up to his moment, and a lot people think he is unsuited for the position of strongest character because he doesn't act like it. He isn't confident and brilliant like Goku, he isn't prideful and badass like Vegeta, he isn't intense and cool like Trunks, he isn't solemn and imposing like Piccolo. That's what people often dislike about him, that he doesn't look and act like a warrior, yet gets all this power and prestige anyway. But again, his un-warriorness was deliberate, it was meant to contradict Goku's.

His un-warriorness started to become a problem when he actually was the main lead, but he stopped being passive then.

[Nero<>Akira]

Gohan doesn't have a problem. People just want him to be Goku.

[ABED]

I don't want him to be Goku. I want him to be an active participant in the story.

[Son Gara]

I don't think there is a problem with Gohan. He was never meant or wanted to be a fighter. He was just always thrust into situations where he had to fight either for his own survival or to protect his family and friends. The real problem isn't him, but rather all the die-hard fanboys who seem to claim his character somehow got "cheated" as the series went on. These fans (typically Westerners, whose first experience with the series, most likely was watching the Cell Games portion on Cartoon Network) seem to want Gohan to be something he isn't. Blinded by nostalgia, they are convinced that he was always meant to be this big badass and when they find out the truth, they refuse to accept it.

Gohan is fine and is living the life he always wanted: being a scholar and having a loving wife and child. There's nothing wrong with that. His story of character growth is over. The problem is when all these die-hards coming out going "but muh Gohan!"

*side note* Not accusing anyone in this tread of being like that, this was just based off what I've seen in thing like Facebook and YouTube comments.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I partially blame GT for Gohan. It seemed like they didn't know what to do with him that carried on over to Super. He doesn't need to fight in every arc, but I hope he gets a role like Bulma, doesn't need to fight but come up with ideas to help win the day. Luckily, TOP gave Gohan some impressive fights, and it seems like the character will try to balance training and work.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Ah, yes, we've debated about this a few times with neither of us coming to an agreement.

I think Gohan was handled well in the arc, they build him up just enough that it wasn't obvious that he'd be the hero at the end (Goku claiming he wants Gohan to be stronger than him, Goku saying he can't beat Cell during the ten days before Cell Games.)

He was in character too, it's easy to assume that Gohan realised Cell was too strong after he kicked him and all the Cell Games was just a game to Cell so Gohan didn't see the point in killing him. Plus Gohan's reluctance to fight Cell when he came back was a one time thing because he was guilt ridden for being responsible for his father's death and came out of it learning not to make that sort of mistake again (Hence why Goku said Gohan is more reliable than him when he revealed his reason for staying dead).

[ABED]

Except that Gohan isn't more reliable. Gohan giving up at that point in the fight for whatever reason isn't a great trait in a protagonist. If Toriyama is trying to make GOhan the hero or trying to give him an arc, he's failing because by the end, Gohan isn't self reliant. He's constantly having to be told what to do.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Except that Gohan isn't more reliable. Gohan giving up at that point in the fight for whatever reason isn't a great trait in a protagonist. If Toriyama is trying to make GOhan the hero or trying to give him an arc, he's failing because by the end, Gohan isn't self reliant. He's constantly having to be told what to do.

Why not? You have to understand Gohan's reason for giving up and what it meant for the character. Gohan wanted to correct his error that led to his father dying so he can live with himself by killing Cell the right way. It was an error that Gohan wouldn't make again since Goku ensured him that his death wasn't so bad so that he wouldn't have reason to give up fighting when the next big bad shows up. The reason why Goku is less reliable is because he can't not make the same mistakes again since his Saiyan nature is unshakable.

[lord godly da don]

What people have failed to mention is the reason why gohan was so adamant about going to namek. He felt at fault for the death of piccolo and the lost of the dragon balls. He was on a mission to right his wrongs and nothing was going to stop him from doing just that. I never looked at it as him being assertive but determine.

[ABED]

Except that Gohan isn't more reliable. Gohan giving up at that point in the fight for whatever reason isn't a great trait in a protagonist. If Toriyama is trying to make GOhan the hero or trying to give him an arc, he's failing because by the end, Gohan isn't self reliant. He's constantly having to be told what to do.

Why not? You have to understand Gohan's reason for giving up and what it meant for the character. Gohan wanted to correct his error that led to his father dying so he can live with himself by killing Cell the right way. It was an error that Gohan wouldn't make again since Goku ensured him that his death wasn't so bad so that he wouldn't have reason to give up fighting when the next big bad shows up. The reason why Goku is less reliable is because he can't not make the same mistakes again since his Saiyan nature is unshakable.

But he didn't. He just listened to his father and did as he was told. Gohan didn't fix any error. If Toriyama wants to show Gohan's resolve to not make that error again, NOT giving up against Cell would be the right time to show it.

What do you even mean by "reliable"? This isn't a superhero story and the ability to save the day is an afterthought.

I never looked at it as him being assertive but determine.

Not seeing the distinction.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Except that Gohan isn't more reliable. Gohan giving up at that point in the fight for whatever reason isn't a great trait in a protagonist. If Toriyama is trying to make GOhan the hero or trying to give him an arc, he's failing because by the end, Gohan isn't self reliant. He's constantly having to be told what to do.

Why not? You have to understand Gohan's reason for giving up and what it meant for the character. Gohan wanted to correct his error that led to his father dying so he can live with himself by killing Cell the right way. It was an error that Gohan wouldn't make again since Goku ensured him that his death wasn't so bad so that he wouldn't have reason to give up fighting when the next big bad shows up. The reason why Goku is less reliable is because he can't not make the same mistakes again since his Saiyan nature is unshakable.

But he didn't. He just listened to his father and did as he was told. Gohan didn't fix any error. If Toriyama wants to show Gohan's resolve to not make that error again, NOT giving up against Cell would be the right time to show it.

What do you even mean by "reliable"? This isn't a superhero story and the ability to save the day is an afterthought.

I never looked at it as him being assertive but determine.

Not seeing the distinction.

Correcting an error is a poor way of saying it, my bad. I meant Gohan wanted to atone for prolonging the fight with Cell like he did by killing Cell as quickly as possible which he did after he had the will to fight again, briefly giving up doesn't change that since he was ready to fight again.

By "reliable" I mean who's more capable of defending the earth without making mistakes. We all know that saving the earth is a huge part of the storytelling at this point.

[ABED]

To truly atone, he would have to do more than just what he's told. He's little more than a blunt instrument in that arc. He has to be told what to do every step of the way. That's not a good trait in the central character.

The only way he's more capable than Goku is that he wouldn't allow threats to arise, but he hasn't shown by the end of the Cell arc that he's capable on his own of defeating the next big bad that comes his way. In order to show that, Gohan would've had to have done it without Goku telling him what to do every step of the way.

We all know that saving the earth is a huge part of the storytelling at this point.

The stakes are world threatening, but it's not a superhero story.

[TheUltimateVegito]

To truly atone, he would have to do more than just what he's told. He's little more than a blunt instrument in that arc. He has to be told what to do every step of the way. That's not a good trait in the central character.

The only way he's more capable than Goku is that he wouldn't allow threats to arise, but he hasn't shown by the end of the Cell arc that he's capable on his own of defeating the next big bad that comes his way. In order to show that, Gohan would've had to have done it without Goku telling him what to do every step of the way.

We all know that saving the earth is a huge part of the storytelling at this point.

The stakes are world threatening, but it's not a superhero story.

I don't see the problem in a central character being told what to do, just because he was being told what to do doesn't mean that Gohan has to be told what to do each time he fights. By the end of the Cell Games Gohan developed to the point that he wouldn't had to be told what to do if a situation like the Cell Games happens again. Gohan didn't want to atone for his actions because anyone told him to, Goku only helped him regain his fighting spirit and helped him kill Cell. Gohan is still capable of defeating the next big bad, just because Goku helped him doesn't mean he's incapable. Gohan might not be the genius fighter that Goku is since Goku was shown to be better at exploiting openings in battle during the Kamehameha struggle, but Gohan is still more capable of defeating the next big bad than Goku since he wouldn't allow the big bad to show up or get stronger. Plus openings like the one Gohan had during the Kamehameha struggle isn't something that happens often so it isn't really a detriment to Gohan's character.

Yes it's not a superhero story but the story is still about saving the world.

[ABED]

I do when that's all he does for the entirety of the story. If all he does is react and do what he's told, you've picked the wrong protagonist.

By the end of the Cell Games Gohan developed

How do you know? We weren't shown that. We saw at the end of the arc that he had to be told what to do and when to do it. His development wasn't dramatized. Gohan is physically capable, but not mentally. I don't ask that Gohan be the fighter Goku is. I ask for him to be active.

the story is still about saving the world.

Not really. They put the world in jeopardy almost as much as they save it. It's about improvement. The heroes are constantly striving to become better. That's their fundamental goal. I'm not sure what Gohan's is.