Is Dragon Ball cynical at its core?

[Michsi]

So if that statement came from the mouth of a cynic you'd view it exactly the same if it came from the mouth of a optimist?

Yup. The statement is still true.

Let me reiterate then, you believe that that statement would mean the same thing to both?

[ABED]

So if that statement came from the mouth of a cynic you'd view it exactly the same if it came from the mouth of a optimist?

Yup. The statement is still true.

Let me reiterate then, you believe that that statement would mean the same thing to both?

Let's not lose the forest from the trees. This started when you told someone "even that viewpoint is cynical". Is it the viewpoint or the person's outlook?

[Michsi]

Yup. The statement is still true.

Let me reiterate then, you believe that that statement would mean the same thing to both?

Let's not lose the forest from the trees. This started when you told someone "even that viewpoint is cynical". Is it the viewpoint or the person's outlook?

Yes, as a response to their statement that people don't really change in real life as opposed to how it is treated in fiction, where flaws get corrected via character development. That viewpoint is cynical.

[ABED]

I don't think that statement is cynical. Most people don't because, again, change is difficult. The poster didn't say people can't. They literally wrote "most people don't".

[Fionordequester]

ABED, please forgive me. I never meant talk down to you. Actually, I'm 26, and you're 33, so if anything, I was worried YOU'D be the one doing the talking down!

Anyway, I wasn't trying to express anger or frustration. I'm just deeply passionate about a person's ability to change, both as someone who constantly struggles with self-doubt, and as someone who intimately knows several people who've made drastic changes.

Would you forgive me, please? I'll try to be more careful in the future.

[ABED]

ABED, please forgive me. I never meant talk down to you. Actually, I'm 26, and you're 33, so if anything, I was worried YOU'D be the one doing the talking down!

Anyway, I wasn't trying to express anger or frustration. I'm just deeply passionate about a person's ability to change, both as someone who constantly struggles with self-doubt, and as someone who intimately knows several people who've made drastic changes.

Would you forgive me, please? I'll try to be more careful in the future.

Thanks. Sorry if I came off as snippy and defensive. I believe people can change as well. I've seen it happen. My brother wouldn't think of touching drugs and hasn't even smoked a cigarette in nearly two decades, so I know it's possible. It's simply difficult and requires radical changes. It's difficult to not only break old habits, but form new ones.

[Michsi]

I don't think that statement is cynical. Most people don't because, again, change is difficult. The poster didn't say people can't. They literally wrote "most people don't".

"Most people don't change" is textbook cynicism. And yes, that doesn't exclude it also being statistically accurate.

[ABED]

I don't think that statement is cynical. Most people don't because, again, change is difficult. The poster didn't say people can't. They literally wrote "most people don't".

"Most people don't change" is textbook cynicism. And yes, that doesn't exclude it also being statistically accurate.

How should I phrase a truthful phrase to get the point across so it's not cynical? In order to be optimistic, are we supposed to evade these facts?

And didn't you say it depends on the person who's saying it?

[Michsi]

I don't think that statement is cynical. Most people don't because, again, change is difficult. The poster didn't say people can't. They literally wrote "most people don't".

"Most people don't change" is textbook cynicism. And yes, that doesn't exclude it also being statistically accurate.

How should I phrase a truthful phrase to get the point across so it's not cynical? In order to be optimistic, are we supposed to evade these facts?

And didn't you say it depends on the person who's saying it?

I believe that was for the statement "change is hard".
Intention and context matter as well of course.

[ABED]

"Most people don't change" is textbook cynicism. And yes, that doesn't exclude it also being statistically accurate.

How should I phrase a truthful phrase to get the point across so it's not cynical? In order to be optimistic, are we supposed to evade these facts?

And didn't you say it depends on the person who's saying it?

I believe that was for the statement "change is hard".
Intention and context matter as well of course.

Context is everything.

[Tavarano]

Indeed it is, I've realized it when I got to the fishing trip in the manga since the author decided to ruin even something as simple as that, so I've reread with the assumption that it is, the poison is already there in chapter 1. Attempted murder of a child treated as something funny .

[MyVisionity]

Damn, what's going on with that translation? "Squelch it"? "Owchies"?? Is that official?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Dark humor is not the same as being cynical.

[Tavarano]

and Toriyama’s “poison” comments.

Could you elaborate here?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

“Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the ‘righteous hero’-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of ‘poison’ that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.”

He also said "Also, this is often misunderstood, but I’m not good with wholesome content. It may seem wholesome at first glance, but there’s actually poison inside." when asked about lack of depiction of human drama in Dragon Ball.

[Tavarano]

Gohan might be the only exception since he seems to be genuinely decent, probably to show just how awful the rest are.

Gohan entirely ignored Android 16's last words about protecting nature for him, never thought of him again, and became a permanently arrogant fighter. The moment where Goku asks him to kill Cell creates a nice contrast to how it was in freezer arc where Gohan was thinking on Earth that Goku stayed on Namek for Kuririn while he was attempting to let Freezer go, like father like son, both piece of shit, even their poses have close resemblence.

If that were the case, Goku would have been completely nonchalant about ... or the deaths of Yamcha, Piccolo, Tien and Chiaotzu to Nappa.

In this instance after hitting Nappa a few times, he admitted that it was only to get him angered to see him at his best. There was also a moment before where he announced that he wants to fight alone, his reasoning was implied to be an excuse with Gohan and Kuririn's reaction, and he later lost control over himself and went into a fit of rage at Gohan specifically because of problems with getting hurt, so there definitely wasn't any empathy in his claim.

The closest thing we got to Goku having a moment of introspection was during the Cell games but it's not treated as a turning point for his character and he goes right back to prioritizing battle after that.

Do you mean this? Did you never question why Goku turned around and moved his fingers away from his forehead after instant transmission?

[jjgp1112]

Why do you go to such absurd lengths to twist and misconstrue every scene?

[ABED]

Why do you go to such absurd lengths to twist and misconstrue every scene?

I find it hard to believe that Tavarano isn't doing this to get a rise out of people.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah. I am utterly against putting people on ignore or whatever but I cant take them seriously anymore.

[Tavarano]

Besides Toriyama's comments about poison, he also made other interesting ones, that when he was drawing DB, he was making things not touching on purpose, that there is no such thing as a theme in his work, that DB is pure entertainment and doesn't have any messages. He admits to more or less fucking around with the story as these things come up naturally, even his latest comment how Bardock saved the universe was just there to rub it in for FoG fans.

I'll give you some more bits of poison.

Goku's return from Yadrat, Toriyama's unseen trolling skills, or at least I have never seen anyone mention it, he comes back after missing for a year, there is no moment of affection nor any real personal acknowledgement between him and his son nor his friends, he immediately moves on fighting related topics, and everyone acts as if it was perfectly normal, it's all a joke.


Goku hit ChiChi on purpose that one time, there was prelude to that before where Goku was getting mad at her in the hospital showing off his teeth like an angry dog, in the same context of ChiChi trying to prevent Gohan from getting stronger. Piccolo's comment "even the super saiyan has a weakness" is quite interesting after said super saiyan basically beat his wife into giving up an argument.


Aside from Goku dying to Cell to not have to get a job, his sacrifice against Raditz is also written in a subversive way, preemptively devalued with mention of easy ressurection, Goku before dying wouldn't ask about Gohan, only when the 2 other stronger saiyans will come, and when informed he wasn't glad that Gohan is fine, he was glad that Kuririn won't get yelled at by ChiChi, and then it's followed by a mean joke that goes completely against to what it's seemingly supposed to be.


I don't want to search for all panels but Toriyama's endings are very characteristic, Goku leaves his friends, Goku refuses to have a farewell feast with Bora and Upa, Goku leaves his family, Goku leaves adoring him granddaughter in the dust, there was also Bulma after the Vegeta fight with her "oh yeah, I had a good cry so the fact that my boyfriend is dead doesn't bother me anymore", very different vibe compared to endings from say Toei's DB movies.

DB is overall quite nasty, but definitely not intended to be depressing, it treats itself lightheartedly no matter what, someone said in this thread that Future Trunks stuff were depressing, but these things are all just jokes.
If you weren't laughing when Future Trunks' timeline got erased and they celebrated with a barbecue then you're missing the author's intention, or don't like his degenerate humor.


Similarly the death of Future Gohan was a gag, he trained his entire life to beat the androids and ultimately got swatted like a fly without putting up a fight, just a humoristic subversion.

I find it hard to believe that Tavarano isn't doing this to get a rise out of people.

Regarding our discussion from other thread, about Gohan and Kuririn's attitude towards death on Namek, there was also this moment where Gohan called one of the dead namekians an old geezer. Old geezer, quite funny description for someone that was just murdered in front of him, while talking to Dende nonetheless.


And this moment, it was the first time that Gohan killed, and aside from saibamen for Kuririn as well.


I also recall reading a thread in which you said that it was not natural for Goten to be laughing thinking about fighting Buu after he killed his mother, it's about the same thing. Toriyama likes doing funny scenes in improper circumstances, and he especially likes mocking death.

[Michsi]

Do you mean this? Did you never question why Goku turned around and moved his fingers away from his forehead after instant transmission?
*snip*

No, when Piccolo's words about Gohan's outlook on his plan with Cell finally starts to hit home and he turns around to look at the battle horrified. I don't remember him ever having a moment of self-reflection or realization like that before or ever again. You would think it would make him more self aware of his action going forward, but he is arguable worse in the Boo Saga.