Something I thought of regarding the SS2 Gohan scene in Japanese

[Forte224]

In case it hasn't been noted, while SSJ2 was new, SSJ wasn't.

Kaio said it was true, he said it plain as day. Goku's not himself anymore. If we're going to act like these are real characters and not fictional characters, then we know Kaio saw Goku spare Vegeta, yet he clearly saw a difference in Goku's character against Freeza and letting him power up. You're indeed making stuff up by contradicting what Toriyama wrote on page. And it doesn't up the drama in any way if it isn't actually true.

I know he did. I'm not denying he said it, but Kaio isn't all knowing. He can make mistakes. He has made mistakes. And art is show don't tell. Toriyama can tell me Goku is different all he wants, but if his actions aren't different, it doesn't matter what the author has the characters say. I'm not making anything up. How have I made anything up? Have I made up events in the story? Are any of the examples I cited wrong? I didn't contradict what Toriyama wrote, he did. It wouldn't be the first time.

It ups the drama because Kaio is surprised by Goku's temperament, so the audience is supposed to be surprised. He has never seen this side of him, although in actuality, he has. Goku let Vegeta go for the sake of a fight. You say Kaio saw it but also saw a difference in Goku on Namek, so what was the difference?

"He has never seen this side of him, although in actuality, he has"? That doesn't make any sense. He clearly saw a difference between the 2 scenarios if he saw a reason to point out Goku allowing Freeza to go full power was because Goku was showing a change in personality. It doesn't up the drama if it isn't true. There is no point in him stating it at all if it isn't true. Not unless it was clarified later, which it wasn't. You're taking black and white text and twisting it to say something else, with you're reasoning being "The character was wrong before." Like, wowee what a revelation. Of course he's been wrong before. But there is no reason for him to say it and have it not be expanded upon later unless it were true. This is Toriyama we're talking about.

[ABED]

You have no evidence to back up what he says beyond him saying it. How about explaining how he was different? Your example of the difference is Kaio saying he saw a difference? I believe that's a tautology.

That doesn't make any sense.

It does when you know he has seen Goku make questionable decisions for the sake of a fight instead of doing the expedient thing and stopping his enemy.

[Forte224]

You have no evidence to back up what he says beyond him saying it. How about explaining how he was different? Your example of the difference is Kaio saying he saw a difference? I believe that's a tautology.

The evidence is that it's written on the page and nothing contradicts it later on. Toriyama doesn't just write stuff like that for the LOLs. You're over complicating a very simple situation here.

[ABED]

Even though there are similarities with Goku being a little overwhelmed at first after turning SSJ, his age and battle experience are what makes the difference. He is enraged at first, but gains his composure pretty quickly. Gohan has never felt this kind of power so that combined with being enraged, it doesn't make for a good combo. Still, he's still the only hope the world has, so I find the music fitting. I don't see this as un-Gohan like as much as it's Gohan in a new context.

So you're saying the fact that Gohan is the last hope is enough to make his current intentions of revenge and immediate actions irrelevant? Because it's just as easy to say that Goku was the last hope on Namek so therefore his intentions were irrelevant.

Except that in the two situations we don't know what just happened to Goku or what the consequences will be of his transformation. We've seen SSJ before. Plus the story is setting up Gohan to take over the hero role.

The evidence is that it's written on the page and nothing contradicts it later on. Toriyama doesn't just write stuff like that for the LOLs. You're over complicating a very simple situation here.

It's not complicated. What you're saying isn't evidence. It violates show don't tell. And I never implied he did it for LOL's. He was trying to up the drama. Toriyama probably believed it was true when he wrote it, but it contradicts previous instances where Goku allowed enemies to get a free shot or leave or power up for the sake of a better fight. There are plenty of examples of Goku's actions contradicting your point that he only let Freeza reach full power because he had turned SSJ.

[Forte224]

Even though there are similarities with Goku being a little overwhelmed at first after turning SSJ, his age and battle experience are what makes the difference. He is enraged at first, but gains his composure pretty quickly. Gohan has never felt this kind of power so that combined with being enraged, it doesn't make for a good combo. Still, he's still the only hope the world has, so I find the music fitting. I don't see this as un-Gohan like as much as it's Gohan in a new context.

So you're saying the fact that Gohan is the last hope is enough to make his current intentions of revenge and immediate actions irrelevant? Because it's just as easy to say that Goku was the last hope on Namek so therefore his intentions were irrelevant.

Except that in the two situations we don't know what just happened to Goku or what the consequences will be of his transformation. We've seen SSJ before. Plus the story is setting up Gohan to take over the hero role.

The evidence is that it's written on the page and nothing contradicts it later on. Toriyama doesn't just write stuff like that for the LOLs. You're over complicating a very simple situation here.

It's not complicated. What you're saying isn't evidence. It violates show don't tell. And I never implied he did it for LOL's. He was trying to up the drama. Toriyama probably believed it was true when he wrote it, but it contradicts previous instances where Goku allowed enemies to get a free shot or leave or power up for the sake of a better fight.

But you ARE over complicating it. You're over complicating a very simple, plain, black and white statement by Kaio with what you perceive to be a completely different situation. There's NOTHING indicating he's wrong, and it wouldn't up the drama if he WERE wrong. YOU'RE the one that needs proof that he was wrong, because there isn't any proof, other than referencing that one time he was wrong about the timing of the Saiyans, where his being wrong DID add drama because it meant he wasn't going to be back in time for the fight. Period. End of story. I'm done here. This is going nowhere.

[ABED]

Show don't tell is not a complicated idea. You're just taking statements at face value in spite of contradictory evidence in the story. Goku has done things like that prior to turning SSJ. It's not out of character to allow his enemy the time to reach full power. I've provided plenty of example despite your claims that the only example I gave was when Kaio was wrong. That was an example proving Kaio is fallible. That's an in universe response. The examples I provided were when Goku made questionable decisions for the sake of a better fight. They run counter to your point that he only did so because he turned SSJ. Forget about Kaio. SHOW me how Goku has acted out of character and if you can't defend your answer without bringing up Kaio's statement, I'll just assume you aren't reading what I wrote.

Back on topic, even if Spirit vs. Spirit being preferred is hypocritical, I'm cool with it. It's a better song than whatever forgettable piece of score or dialog from the dub.

[WittyUsername]

I’ve said this before, but I’m not crazy about the music choice used for Gohan’s SSJ2 transformation. I actually think that the music used for the scene in Kai was more appropriate. Spirit vs Spirit sounds too inspirational for what’s supposed to be a tense moment of a kid going through a mental breakdown.

[Captain-Sora]

Another point I wanted to make is Goku going SS1 in the dub. Fans of the original claim the heroic music Faulconer plays there is unfitting because of the context of the scene. They say it's supposed to be a grim and unsettling scene because all the horrible stuff that's happening has caused Goku to snap and potentially lose himself, and presenting it as heroic or miraculous is inappropriate.

So how is the use of the uplifting Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~it~ any more acceptable when Gohan goes SS2? I mean lets look at the context for a minute. We have a 10 year old boy who's been pushed by his father to fight against his will against an evil monster, who has been tortured both physically and mentally and has been pushed to the breaking point, and who unlike Goku on Namek actually does lose himself for awhile, and eventually gets his father killed.

The dark and foreboding cue used for Goku's first SSJ transformation isn't placed there solely because of the dire situation that came about beforehand. It's used to make the scene feel suspenseful and unpredictable. You're made to wonder if whatever is happening to him will be a good thing or not. It's something entirely new and unprecedented for the character.

The reason why people have a beef with the dub music for that sequence is because it telegraphs the coming change as something that will turn the tide, painting the whole scene as a "cool" and hype-inducing moment. People don't find it ill-fitting because they're against having heroic music being used in Dragon Ball. They find it out of place because it misses the point of THAT specific scene by tipping its hand early, promising that what's coming is definitely going to be awesome and "badass" from the moment Goku starts sounding like he's passing a hard stool.

Gohan being accompanied by more uplifting music as he transforms into Super Saiyan 2 is acceptable because it's something we're already led to believe will be a positive change for him and the heroes. It's something that had been steadily built up as a game changer and is finally coming to fruition. There's no uncertainty to be had there. It's just a power boost on top of a form that had long been established to be a good thing by that point in the series. The feeling of hope within that dark time is warranted.

[Kokonoe]

I still prefer the dub variation cause Android 16's speech is better written. That said I really do not like the usage of music in how it was played out in the dub.

I've made my own "fixed" version long ago you might be interested in hearing OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6fODP5h9SY

[90sDBZ]

The dark and foreboding cue used for Goku's first SSJ transformation isn't placed there solely because of the dire situation that came about beforehand. It's used to make the scene feel suspenseful and unpredictable. You're made to wonder if whatever is happening to him will be a good thing or not. It's something entirely new and unprecedented for the character.

The reason why people have a beef with the dub music for that sequence is because it telegraphs the coming change as something that will turn the tide, painting the whole scene as a "cool" and hype-inducing moment. People don't find it ill-fitting because they're against having heroic music being used in Dragon Ball. They find it out of place because it misses the point of THAT specific scene by tipping its hand early, promising that what's coming is definitely going to be awesome and "badass" from the moment Goku starts sounding like he's passing a hard stool.

Gohan being accompanied by more uplifting music as he transforms into Super Saiyan 2 is acceptable because it's something we're already led to believe will be a positive change for him and the heroes. It's something that had been steadily built up as a game changer and is finally coming to fruition. There's no uncertainty to be had there. It's just a power boost on top of a form that had long been established to be a good thing by that point in the series. The feeling of hope within that dark time is warranted.

I'd argue that there was still plenty of cause for concern and uncertainty in Gohan's case. He was obviously reluctant to go into that form to begin with, outright saying to Cell that there's no telling what might happen and that he wouldn't be able to control himself.

In Goku's case SS1 had been talked about for the entire arc, like how Frieza feared it, how Vegeta desired it, and even stuff like Vegeta and Ginyu already saying Goku was close to achieving it. There was even a not so subtle moment in the anime where Frieza told one of his men how he feared the legend and it immediately cut to Goku sleeping on the spaceship.

People act like him transforming was some huge shock with no setup when in reality you could see it coming from a mile away. I mean how could you watch everything up to that point and then be like "wtf is happening to Goku!" after all that obvious buildup. At this point you only had to put 2 and 2 together to know Goku would be the one to achieve the form and bring down Frieza. Also when it happens things are literally at rock bottom already, so any change at that point could only be a change for the better.

And I find it funny how people point to Goku shouting at Gohan to justify it being scary, because right after Gohan flies off with Piccolo smiling while acknowledging the legend is really true. If Gohan is already no longer worried then why should we the audience be? He even seems impressed by it which actually makes Faulconer's "awesome" approach more valid.

I still prefer the dub variation cause Android 16's speech is better written. That said I really do not like the usage of music in how it was played out in the dub.

I've made my own "fixed" version long ago you might be interested in hearing OP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6fODP5h9SY

Nice. I think that definitely works better than the Time Chamber theme the dub used originally.

[jjgp1112]

90s DBZ, you're looking way too far into hypotheticals and after effects and not how the scenes were intended to come off in the moment. Yes, Gohan wound up going off the deep end and fucking up but at first we're expecting him to triumphantly save the day. The entire presentation of Goku's transformation is more fearsome than awesome, though I do think the Falconer theme fits well there.

[90sDBZ]

90s DBZ, you're looking way too far into hypotheticals and after effects and not how the scenes were intended to come off in the moment. Yes, Gohan wound up going off the deep end and fucking up but at first we're expecting him to triumphantly save the day. The entire presentation of Goku's transformation is more fearsome than awesome, though I do think the Falconer theme fits well there.

But you're not acknowledging Gohan's own extreme reluctance to go SS2. He's literally afraid to do it.

By the time Goku transformed it had been foreshadowed for the entire arc, and we were literally expecting it to happen. In fact I'd bet that most viewers actually wanted it to happen by that point to see what all the hype was about. The story actively tries to build excitement for Super Saiyan. I mean imagine how disapointed fans would have been if Frieza died from the Spirit Bomb and nothing came of the legend.

I just don't see how anyone could have a frightened "WTF!" reaction to that scene when it was telegraphed for the entire arc beforehand. For me I was waiting for it to happen, and having it presented as an awesome long awaited moment felt organic. Even the original episode title includes the line "Transformed at last", as if this is a good thing we should be excited about.

[ABED]

90s DBZ, you're looking way too far into hypotheticals and after effects and not how the scenes were intended to come off in the moment. Yes, Gohan wound up going off the deep end and fucking up but at first we're expecting him to triumphantly save the day. The entire presentation of Goku's transformation is more fearsome than awesome, though I do think the Falconer theme fits well there.

But you're not acknowledging Gohan's own extreme reluctance to go SS2. He's literally afraid to do it.

By the time Goku transformed it had been foreshadowed for the entire arc, and we were literally expecting it to happen. In fact I'd bet that most viewers actually wanted it to happen by that point to see what all the hype was about. The story actively tries to build excitement for Super Saiyan. I mean imagine how disapointed fans would have been if Frieza died from the Spirit Bomb and nothing came of the legend.

I just don't see how anyone could have a frightened "WTF!" reaction to that scene when it was telegraphed for the entire arc beforehand. For me I was waiting for it to happen, and having it presented as an awesome long awaited moment felt organic. Even the original episode title includes the line "Transformed at last", as if this is a good thing we should be excited about.

There's a bit of cognitive dissonance with the music and the title, I'll give you that. However, to the extent that SSJ is foreshadowed, it's vague and what's also brought up in almost equal parts is how a SSJ is supposed to be cold hearted. Goku's transformation doesn't just lead to a power up, it could end up leading to a radical change in Goku. We don't know at that point.

I don't think it would've been anti-climactic if Goku won with the Genki Dama. That would've been a long, brutal, exhausting battle and it's not clear that SSJ was a transformation.

[90sDBZ]

There's a bit of cognitive dissonance with the music and the title, I'll give you that. However, to the extent that SSJ is foreshadowed, it's vague and what's also brought up in almost equal parts is how a SSJ is supposed to be cold hearted. Goku's transformation doesn't just lead to a power up, it could end up leading to a radical change in Goku. We don't know at that point.

I don't think it would've been anti-climactic if Goku won with the Genki Dama. That would've been a long, brutal, exhausting battle and it's not clear that SSJ was a transformation.

There is lots of talk of Super Saiyans being ruthless killing machines, but I never put too much stock in that personally because it essentially describes the way saiyans are by default. We already know Goku isn't your typical saiyan, so I never took that part too literally.

Gohan on the other hand had a history of losing his temper and not remembering what had happened later. When he says he's worried to transform I take it seriously, because I've actually seen this stuff for myself over the course of the series.

At the very least there's equal amount of reason to be worried in both scenarios.

[ABED]

There's a bit of cognitive dissonance with the music and the title, I'll give you that. However, to the extent that SSJ is foreshadowed, it's vague and what's also brought up in almost equal parts is how a SSJ is supposed to be cold hearted. Goku's transformation doesn't just lead to a power up, it could end up leading to a radical change in Goku. We don't know at that point.

I don't think it would've been anti-climactic if Goku won with the Genki Dama. That would've been a long, brutal, exhausting battle and it's not clear that SSJ was a transformation.

There is lots of talk of Super Saiyans being ruthless killing machines, but I never put too much stock in that personally because it essentially describes the way saiyans are by default. We already know Goku isn't your typical saiyan, so I never took that part too literally.

Gohan on the other hand had a history of losing his temper and not remembering what had happened later. When he says he's worried to transform I take it seriously, because I've actually seen this stuff for myself over the course of the series.

At the very least there's equal amount of reason to be worried in both scenarios.

And this is a Super Saiyan. For all we know, it takes those sadistic traits and pushed them into overdrive. The other transformation we had was Oozaru and that turns them into feral giant apes. It was relatively uncharted territory.

Gohan has lost his temper plenty of times, but we know what Super Saiyan is at that point and Gohan's temper never turned him against anyone he cared about. There was zero reason to be worried when Gohan transformed because we've seen him angry and transform.

[Captain-Sora]

I'd argue that there was still plenty of cause for concern and uncertainty in Gohan's case. He was obviously reluctant to go into that form to begin with, outright saying to Cell that there's no telling what might happen and that he wouldn't be able to control himself.

Whether you think there's room for uncertainty to be presented in that scene or not is irrelevant, as that's not what the scene is directed to be like. The point is that sequence is framed and presented to be a positive thing, which is why people are fine with uplifting music being utilized there.

In Goku's case SS1 had been talked about for the entire arc, like how Frieza feared it, how Vegeta desired it, and even stuff like Vegeta and Ginyu already saying Goku was close to achieving it. There was even a not so subtle moment in the anime where Frieza told one of his men how he feared the legend and it immediately cut to Goku sleeping on the spaceship.

People act like him transforming was some huge shock with no setup when in reality you could see it coming from a mile away. I mean how could you watch everything up to that point and then be like "wtf is happening to Goku!" after all that obvious buildup. At this point you only had to put 2 and 2 together to know Goku would be the one to achieve the form and bring down Frieza. Also when it happens things are literally at rock bottom already, so any change at that point could only be a change for the better.

It's about theatricality. From an out-of-universe perspective, of course everyone and their mother is able to predict that what Goku is going through will result in a good thing based on the arc setting up this big pay off, but that doesn't mean they need to dispense with the theatrics surrounding the moment of truth. The point is about evoking a FEELING within the audience. Making you feel what everyone else in the story is feeling during that sequence, and those feelings are intended to be uncertainty, concern, fear and awe. That is the lens through which the transformation is framed and directed to be viewed as, and so the score must follow suit (barring scenes where the intention is to create some dissonance between the audio and visuals, which isn't the case here)

[90sDBZ]

There's a bit of cognitive dissonance with the music and the title, I'll give you that. However, to the extent that SSJ is foreshadowed, it's vague and what's also brought up in almost equal parts is how a SSJ is supposed to be cold hearted. Goku's transformation doesn't just lead to a power up, it could end up leading to a radical change in Goku. We don't know at that point.

I don't think it would've been anti-climactic if Goku won with the Genki Dama. That would've been a long, brutal, exhausting battle and it's not clear that SSJ was a transformation.

There is lots of talk of Super Saiyans being ruthless killing machines, but I never put too much stock in that personally because it essentially describes the way saiyans are by default. We already know Goku isn't your typical saiyan, so I never took that part too literally.

Gohan on the other hand had a history of losing his temper and not remembering what had happened later. When he says he's worried to transform I take it seriously, because I've actually seen this stuff for myself over the course of the series.

At the very least there's equal amount of reason to be worried in both scenarios.

And this is a Super Saiyan. For all we know, it takes those sadistic traits and pushed them into overdrive. The other transformation we had was Oozaru and that turns them into feral giant apes. It was relatively uncharted territory.

Gohan has lost his temper plenty of times, but we know what Super Saiyan is at that point and Gohan's temper never turned him against anyone he cared about. There was zero reason to be worried when Gohan transformed because we've seen him angry and transform.

But Goku didn't have any sadistic traits to begin with, he just loved the thrill of a good fight, you can't enhance traits that aren't there to begin with. You make a good point about the ape form though, although it had been so long since he'd transformed into that that it was pretty far back in my mind by the time he fought Frieza.

If there was zero reason to be worried for Gohan then why was he so worried himself? Why did he allow his friends to take a beating for so long and potentially get killed? And since we're discussing the anime you have to remember the filler scene where he first goes SS1 and initially struggles to gain control.

I'd argue that there was still plenty of cause for concern and uncertainty in Gohan's case. He was obviously reluctant to go into that form to begin with, outright saying to Cell that there's no telling what might happen and that he wouldn't be able to control himself.

Whether you think there's room for uncertainty to be presented in that scene or not is irrelevant, as that's not what the scene is directed to be like. The point is that sequence is framed and presented to be a positive thing, which is why people are fine with uplifting music being utilized there.

In Goku's case SS1 had been talked about for the entire arc, like how Frieza feared it, how Vegeta desired it, and even stuff like Vegeta and Ginyu already saying Goku was close to achieving it. There was even a not so subtle moment in the anime where Frieza told one of his men how he feared the legend and it immediately cut to Goku sleeping on the spaceship.

People act like him transforming was some huge shock with no setup when in reality you could see it coming from a mile away. I mean how could you watch everything up to that point and then be like "wtf is happening to Goku!" after all that obvious buildup. At this point you only had to put 2 and 2 together to know Goku would be the one to achieve the form and bring down Frieza. Also when it happens things are literally at rock bottom already, so any change at that point could only be a change for the better.

It's about theatricality. From an out-of-universe perspective, of course everyone and their mother is able to predict that what Goku is going through will result in a good thing based on the arc setting up this big pay off, but that doesn't mean they need to dispense with the theatrics surrounding the moment of truth. The point is about evoking a FEELING within the audience. Making you feel what everyone else in the story is feeling during that sequence, and those feelings are intended to be uncertainty, concern, fear and awe. That is the lens through which the transformation is framed and directed to be viewed as, and so the score must follow suit (barring scenes where the intention is to create some dissonance between the audio and visuals, which isn't the case here)

I think you've got it backwards. The SS2 scene comes across as positive because of the music, not the other way around ie. being given triumphant music because the moment was triumphant to begin with.

Regarding the SS1 scene again, you can justify the reactions of the characters in-universe, but the music is something that's supposed to be directed at us the audience. If everyone and there mother can predict that good will come from the transformation like you said, then what's the point in the music trying to scare us to begin with? It feels like artificial drama.

And again I know this happened after the fact, but Gohan quickly realised what had happened and smiled as he flew away with Piccolo. If he's no longer worried then this makes King Kai's later line about Goku "not being himself" feel artificial too.

[Tavarano]

But you're not acknowledging Gohan's own extreme reluctance to go SS2. He's literally afraid to do it.

What reluctance? He actively wanted to use his power, he was already fighting back as soon as Cell refused his offer.

[90sDBZ]

But you're not acknowledging Gohan's own extreme reluctance to go SS2. He's literally afraid to do it.

What reluctance? He actively wanted to use his power, he was already fighting back as soon as Cell refused his offer.

That part came later as he was obviously getting desperate. Earlier on he made it clear to Cell that he didn't want to transform.

[jjgp1112]

90s DBZ, you're looking way too far into hypotheticals and after effects and not how the scenes were intended to come off in the moment. Yes, Gohan wound up going off the deep end and fucking up but at first we're expecting him to triumphantly save the day. The entire presentation of Goku's transformation is more fearsome than awesome, though I do think the Falconer theme fits well there.

But you're not acknowledging Gohan's own extreme reluctance to go SS2. He's literally afraid to do it.

By the time Goku transformed it had been foreshadowed for the entire arc, and we were literally expecting it to happen. In fact I'd bet that most viewers actually wanted it to happen by that point to see what all the hype was about. The story actively tries to build excitement for Super Saiyan. I mean imagine how disapointed fans would have been if Frieza died from the Spirit Bomb and nothing came of the legend.

I just don't see how anyone could have a frightened "WTF!" reaction to that scene when it was telegraphed for the entire arc beforehand. For me I was waiting for it to happen, and having it presented as an awesome long awaited moment felt organic. Even the original episode title includes the line "Transformed at last", as if this is a good thing we should be excited about.

Yes, Gohan fears it and I agree on that front...but his reluctance gets everyone brutally beaten until 16 has to tell him that it's okay and he needs to do what's right regardless of his reservations. So yes, when Gohan transforms, given all of the circumstances leading to it, it IS a moment of triumph and heroism...

Which makes it all the more effective when, whoops, turns out Gohan was right and he actually does become a bloodthirsty sadist .