Why did the Blue Water and Big Green dubs keep the original score?

[KBABZ]

I always figured that it's because it was easier to NOT take out the music and get someone to compose new music for it.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Re: OP

Simple: Money was never the problem.

Something a lot of people don't think about in regards to the Westwood Z dub is that its score wasn't Anitunes being brought in to do a score largely made up of reused tracks, at least not at first. At the very least, for the majority of its run, the score was just the guys at Ocean throwing their library music (which was basically all music Anitunes had made for them, for other shows) onto the show to get a functional score.
Since they showed no issue in getting the Kikuchi score for DB and GT, both of which were produced using video masters from AB Groupe rather than Funi, and since we know about Ocean using Funi materials for Z...

Though, actually, funny thing about that...

Ocean getting Funi's production materials is slightly more complicated than a lot of people assume; all of Funi's episodes that aired in Canada generally aired using a different edit from the American version, produced by Ocean. Ocean did small things like some additional censoring and cutting, but they also sometimes rearranged the score, and used alternate takes of lines, some of which you won't hear elsewhere (IIRC they had something like "Don't tick off the dragon god of love!" rather than the accidentally-left "Piss off" from Funi's edit).

So, we know Ocean had the materials from Funi's production that would allow them to assemble their own edits of episodes, going as in-depth as using alternate takes of lines, rearranging the score, etc.
And we know the Westwood dub used Funi's scripts and video masters.
So, most likely, Ocean didn't actually have the Kikuchi score. They may have had the Faulconer score, but anything from costs of licensing, to the licensing behind the Westwood dub simply being too complex to re-negotiate to also figure something out for the score, must have meant Ocean just couldn't use it in the dub they were producing for Westwood. Or perhaps Westwood just didn't want Funi's score, that's entirely possible (especially since the royalties would have likely been annoying for them to deal with).

In any case, as soon as Funi were out of the picture, and Ocean started doing DB and GT, using in-house scripts (kind of, anyway... DB's scripts seem to have referenced Funi's scripts, but were heavily rewritten, seemingly with direct translations for reference. GT was entirely new in-house translations, though), and video masters from AB Groupe, the original score was used.

There's also the factors that the Westwood dub used the Vancouver cast, the switch to Blue Water was Ken Morrison of Ocean wanting Blue Water to get a big project to sink their teeth into, and the original score usage in GT and DB, all of which point to money not really being a problem with the Westwood dubs anyway; all the problems with the Westwood dubs came down to time, and the poor decision of moving DB and GT to Blue Water.

So, I don't think the replacement score for Westwood Z was a deliberate choice over Kikuchi, I think it was simply a necessity in absence of other options; Kikuchi wasn't available, and Faulconer was undesirable/unavailable.

Regarding Z, it once again points to the incredible likelihood that FUNimation had much more to do with the production of the Westwood dub than they would ever publicly admit, and could more than likely do a home release for the fans if they actually wanted to. They just (obviously) don't want to.

As far as GT goes, it's worth keeping in mind that Blue Water's GT was dubbed very quickly after the conclusion of the Z dub. It began airing in the United Kingdom even before the first DVDs of FUNimation's dub were released in the United States, and many months before FUNi's version would air on television. For the same reason that Westwood's Z used AB's video masters for the final four episodes of DBZ, Blue Water's GT would continue using the AB masters. With their rushed schedule during Z, they caught up to FUNi and then surpassed them, so FUNi's sources just weren't available. This is made more evident by the fact that Blue Water's GT used entirely different scripts. When they dubbed the original Dragonball later, however, FUNi's dub of Dragonball had long since been finished, so they at least had those as references (as you mentioned).

Regarding Ken Morrison, that absolutely was him cheapening out to save money. Duncan Roberts of UKDB, whom we have to thank for a significant amount of the information we know about the Westwood dub today (most notably who voiced who, after tons of misinformation had been circulating the internet in the late 1990s and early 2000s thanks to old websites such as Voice Chasers) heavily researched this back in 2003 when it was going on. He was in contact with many of Ocean's actors, and posted many interviews online between 2001 and 2003. When people were confused over what the hell happened with Dragonball GT and the Vancouver cast being replaced yet again, Duncan made a post on the DBZOA (for those who remember that website) about why the Vancouver cast lost Dragonball GT even though contracts had already been signed upon Z's conclusion.

While the DBZOA is obviously long gone, thankfully after a quick Google search I was able to find this forum thread from the summer of 2003 where someone copied Duncan's post:

"The Blue Water Mystery

Many people seem to be overjoyed by the use of Blue Water, simply because it has the Japanese music, scripts, and titles. Unfortunately, people seem to think this is the cost of having a sub-standard voice cast. It's not.

The big problem with Blue Water's GT is that it was going to be exactly as it is now, with the Ocean cast. Why isn't it? Ken Morrison.

Ken Morrison is the owner of "Ocean Sound Corporation", and he has been in business for many years. He is known, throughout Vancouver, for his blinding desire to save money. Part of this desire is, unfortunately, Blue Water Studios.

Blue Water Studios is located in Calgary, Alberta, and is situated near a large lake. Blue Water studios is used for one purpose. To save money. As some will recall a short while back, Kirby Morrow's good friend Michael Coleman had been cast as "Chibodee Crocket" in a show called G Gundam. Who ended up playing Chibodee Crocket? Roger Rhodes, Blue Water's Vegeta.

The big question is "Why?" Ocean Studios signed the British Columbia Animation Agreement (2001-2004), which allows actors basic amenities such as a rest area, a beverage on hand, guaranteed overtime pay, double-casting bonuses, and a minimum wage. Despite the fact that Ken Morrison has signed this, he refuses to abide by it for larger properties. Many of you may remember that Ian Corlett gave up ADR work (Automated Dialog Replacement, or 'Standard Dubbing', if you will) simply because of Ocean.

A contract is legally binding, which is rather unfortunate, for Ken, at least. This means that he either has to pay the actors more money, or find an alternative outside of British Columbia. This alternative is his second studio, Blue Water. They are commonly referred to as the "less popular arm of Ocean". They are hosts to some truly talented people, such as Byron Cole. However, the big mistake was GT.

The Dragonball series, in Vancouver, has a well-established cast. In fact, it's the backbone of the entire show. What would DBZ have been without Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and Don Brown? It would've been GT.

As FUNimation proved back in the day of Season Three, you cannot simply replace what is an integral part of the show. When characters suddenly start to sound wildly different, there's going to be a reaction. Luckily for FUNimation, they tried to do some voice-matches. Unluckily for Blue Water, there have only been two voices, so far, that sound like their Ocean counterparts. These are King Kai, and Buu. King Kai sounds fine, a lot like Don Brown, but it just doesn't have the charisma and character that was originally in the voice. Buu, unfortunately, doesn't sound a whole lot like his Ocean counterpart, Scott McNeil. Anybody will know that McNeil has a very distinctive voice, and his Buu was one of those voices. Blue Water's Buu sounds like the demonic hellspawn created with the genes of Scooby-Doo, and Slimer. While the voice is hilarious, it's for the wrong reasons.

Here's a timeline of what happened with GT.
Late 2002/Early 2003 – Casting completed. Actors sign a non-disclosure agreement, and are not permitted to talk about their characters, or internal workings of Ocean Sound.

March 2003 – GT announced, fairly prominent voice actor states that he'd like to see "the talent Calgary can pull out of its ass."

March 2003 – GT airs, actors find out it's gone to Calgary. "I was wondering what happened to that. Ken Morrison will get his someday."

[Tian]

The reason of why Big Green dub didn't do it was most likely lack of time.

David Gasman (Goku's VA) said AB Groupe was in a hurry to dub the movies.

[Robo4900]

Regarding Z, it once again points to the incredible likelihood that FUNimation had much more to do with the production of the Westwood dub than they would ever publicly admit, and could more than likely do a home release for the fans if they actually wanted to. They just (obviously) don't want to.

Unlikely.
Again, Funi were sending video masters and such to Ocean to be edited and distributed in Canada, so probably what happened was Westwood made some deal with Ocean and Toei to get a dub into production on the cheap, using the materials Funi were sending them, and Funi were really none the wiser, particularly since Funi already had a long-running working relationship with Ocean even up to that point, with several of the script writers still working on Funi's Z dub -- maybe even going on to work on Funi's GT too, judging by the behind the scenes feature on the GT dub suggesting they have writers as far as Canada -- and Ocean making the aforementioned edits for Canada.

Still, Funi could likely do a home release of the Westwood dub, it would just take some negotiation with Toei... And then they'd have to get all the masters, author a DVD, market it... A lot goes into a release. And of course, there's brand management; they won't even release their own old TV dub, so releasing the Ocean TV dub? Not just as a boxset of stuff that already aired in the USA back in '96, but as a newly-acquired first-time release of something that never aired in the US or Australia?...
I don't think there's any kind of malice to the fans or the Ocean dub, I think it's just a mixture of things, including careful management of the brand, and Funi trying desperately to avoid digging themselves into the hole they fell into around 2011, where they'd done the singles, the UUEs, the OBs, and the DBoxes, and Kai, and then did the Levels, and no one was even vaguely interested.
Though most of all, I imagine they probably don't want to have to negotiate and potentially pay to license another company's dub.

As far as GT goes, it's worth keeping in mind that Blue Water's GT was dubbed very quickly after the conclusion of the Z dub. It began airing in the United Kingdom even before the first DVDs of FUNimation's dub were released in the United States, and many months before FUNi's version would air on television. For the same reason that Westwood's Z used AB's video masters for the final four episodes of DBZ, Blue Water's GT would continue using the AB masters. With their rushed schedule during Z, they caught up to FUNi and then surpassed them, so FUNi's sources just weren't available. This is made more evident by the fact that Blue Water's GT used entirely different scripts. When they dubbed the original Dragonball later, however, FUNi's dub of Dragonball had long since been finished, so they at least had those as references (as you mentioned).

GT likely went into production as soon after Z as was possible, but producing a dub does take a long time, particularly if you're having to assemble a new score, and if you have a cast as large as Ocean's Z cast was. They likely had a decent amount of time after recording the last Z episode in which to get the ball rolling on GT, I'd say.

Though Ocean's work on Dragon Ball in those days was pretty rushed in general, so "Decent amount of time" here probably still is pretty immediate.

Regarding Ken Morrison, that absolutely was him cheapening out to save money. Duncan Roberts of UKDB, whom we have to thank for a significant amount of the information we know about the Westwood dub today (most notably who voiced who, after tons of misinformation had been circulating the internet in the late 1990s and early 2000s thanks to old websites such as Voice Chasers) heavily researched this back in 2003 when it was going on. He was in contact with many of Ocean's actors, and posted many interviews online between 2001 and 2003. When people were confused over what the hell happened with Dragonball GT and the Vancouver cast being replaced yet again, Duncan made a post on the DBZOA (for those who remember that website) about why the Vancouver cast lost Dragonball GT even though contracts had already been signed upon Z's conclusion.

While the DBZOA is obviously long gone, thankfully after a quick Google search I was able to find this forum thread from the summer of 2003 where someone copied Duncan's post:

Spoiler:

"The Blue Water Mystery

Many people seem to be overjoyed by the use of Blue Water, simply because it has the Japanese music, scripts, and titles. Unfortunately, people seem to think this is the cost of having a sub-standard voice cast. It's not.

The big problem with Blue Water's GT is that it was going to be exactly as it is now, with the Ocean cast. Why isn't it? Ken Morrison.

Ken Morrison is the owner of "Ocean Sound Corporation", and he has been in business for many years. He is known, throughout Vancouver, for his blinding desire to save money. Part of this desire is, unfortunately, Blue Water Studios.

Blue Water Studios is located in Calgary, Alberta, and is situated near a large lake. Blue Water studios is used for one purpose. To save money. As some will recall a short while back, Kirby Morrow's good friend Michael Coleman had been cast as "Chibodee Crocket" in a show called G Gundam. Who ended up playing Chibodee Crocket? Roger Rhodes, Blue Water's Vegeta.

The big question is "Why?" Ocean Studios signed the British Columbia Animation Agreement (2001-2004), which allows actors basic amenities such as a rest area, a beverage on hand, guaranteed overtime pay, double-casting bonuses, and a minimum wage. Despite the fact that Ken Morrison has signed this, he refuses to abide by it for larger properties. Many of you may remember that Ian Corlett gave up ADR work (Automated Dialog Replacement, or 'Standard Dubbing', if you will) simply because of Ocean.

A contract is legally binding, which is rather unfortunate, for Ken, at least. This means that he either has to pay the actors more money, or find an alternative outside of British Columbia. This alternative is his second studio, Blue Water. They are commonly referred to as the "less popular arm of Ocean". They are hosts to some truly talented people, such as Byron Cole. However, the big mistake was GT.

The Dragonball series, in Vancouver, has a well-established cast. In fact, it's the backbone of the entire show. What would DBZ have been without Brian Drummond, Scott McNeil, and Don Brown? It would've been GT.

As FUNimation proved back in the day of Season Three, you cannot simply replace what is an integral part of the show. When characters suddenly start to sound wildly different, there's going to be a reaction. Luckily for FUNimation, they tried to do some voice-matches. Unluckily for Blue Water, there have only been two voices, so far, that sound like their Ocean counterparts. These are King Kai, and Buu. King Kai sounds fine, a lot like Don Brown, but it just doesn't have the charisma and character that was originally in the voice. Buu, unfortunately, doesn't sound a whole lot like his Ocean counterpart, Scott McNeil. Anybody will know that McNeil has a very distinctive voice, and his Buu was one of those voices. Blue Water's Buu sounds like the demonic hellspawn created with the genes of Scooby-Doo, and Slimer. While the voice is hilarious, it's for the wrong reasons.

Here's a timeline of what happened with GT.
Late 2002/Early 2003 – Casting completed. Actors sign a non-disclosure agreement, and are not permitted to talk about their characters, or internal workings of Ocean Sound.

March 2003 – GT announced, fairly prominent voice actor states that he'd like to see "the talent Calgary can pull out of its ass."

March 2003 – GT airs, actors find out it's gone to Calgary. "I was wondering what happened to that. Ken Morrison will get his someday."

Interesting. I never realised it was quite this much a case of money-grubbing.

Ugh. This annoys me a lot. GT and DB could've been such better dubs if Morrison hadn't been looking to save a buck. >_<
If only Westwood had been more active and insisted on keeping the old cast around. They could have made Ocean's GT dub not just an okay but flawed thing, they could have turned it into one of the all-time great works of dubbing.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

As far as GT goes, it's worth keeping in mind that Blue Water's GT was dubbed very quickly after the conclusion of the Z dub. It began airing in the United Kingdom even before the first DVDs of FUNimation's dub were released in the United States, and many months before FUNi's version would air on television. For the same reason that Westwood's Z used AB's video masters for the final four episodes of DBZ, Blue Water's GT would continue using the AB masters. With their rushed schedule during Z, they caught up to FUNi and then surpassed them, so FUNi's sources just weren't available. This is made more evident by the fact that Blue Water's GT used entirely different scripts. When they dubbed the original Dragonball later, however, FUNi's dub of Dragonball had long since been finished, so they at least had those as references (as you mentioned).

GT likely went into production as soon after Z as was possible, but producing a dub does take a long time, particularly if you're having to assemble a new score, and if you have a cast as large as Ocean's Z cast was. They likely had a decent amount of time after recording the last Z episode in which to get the ball rolling on GT, I'd say.

Though Ocean's work on Dragon Ball in those days was pretty rushed in general, so "Decent amount of time" here probably still is pretty immediate.

The Vancouver cast recorded the final four episodes of DBZ in December 2002.

Blue Water's DBGT began airing in the United Kingdom in March 2003.

That is one hell of a quick turnaround, especially considering all the behind the scenes drama that transpired during that time. Vancouver's actors were cast in their roles, contracts were signed, and then Ken Morrison hijacked the whole thing and sent it off to Calgary. A Calgary cast was quickly assembled and episodes were recorded and produced in time to air in the UK by March.

All of this happened in less than 3 months. That offers some perspective as to how rushed the whole ordeal was.

[Robo4900]

As far as GT goes, it's worth keeping in mind that Blue Water's GT was dubbed very quickly after the conclusion of the Z dub. It began airing in the United Kingdom even before the first DVDs of FUNimation's dub were released in the United States, and many months before FUNi's version would air on television. For the same reason that Westwood's Z used AB's video masters for the final four episodes of DBZ, Blue Water's GT would continue using the AB masters. With their rushed schedule during Z, they caught up to FUNi and then surpassed them, so FUNi's sources just weren't available. This is made more evident by the fact that Blue Water's GT used entirely different scripts. When they dubbed the original Dragonball later, however, FUNi's dub of Dragonball had long since been finished, so they at least had those as references (as you mentioned).

GT likely went into production as soon after Z as was possible, but producing a dub does take a long time, particularly if you're having to assemble a new score, and if you have a cast as large as Ocean's Z cast was. They likely had a decent amount of time after recording the last Z episode in which to get the ball rolling on GT, I'd say.

Though Ocean's work on Dragon Ball in those days was pretty rushed in general, so "Decent amount of time" here probably still is pretty immediate.

The Vancouver cast recorded the final four episodes of DBZ in December 2002.

Blue Water's DBGT began airing in the United Kingdom in March 2003.

That is one hell of a quick turnaround, especially considering all the behind the scenes drama that transpired during that time. Vancouver's actors were cast in their roles, contracts were signed, and then Ken Morrison hijacked the whole thing and sent it off to Calgary. A Calgary cast was quickly assembled and episodes were recorded and produced in time to air in the UK by March.

All of this happened in less than 3 months. That offers some perspective as to how rushed the whole ordeal was.

Indeed. And it also sheds some light on why the Blue Water cast started out rather iffy and inconsistent, then got better -- not just through individual cast members generally improving, but the casting itself improved a lot as it went on... It's really no wonder, with the rush early on in mind.

[SaintEvolution]

I'm not sure if this is relevant, but I recall hearing in a Funimation interview that Toei was charging more for the use of Z's score in a dub compared to the other two shows.

And this is contradicted by literally every other international dub that wasn’t done by Funimation or Ocean Group using the Japanese score even for Z

In the face of every other dub keeping the score, Pioneer having no issue getting it for the first 3 movie dubs in 1997, Funimation saying in multiple interviews that the score was done to fit what “American kids would respond to” Toei wanted too much money for the score in Z is an obvious myth.

And some of those international dubs were bankrolled by big multi-media conglomerates like AB Groupe (France) and Televisa (Mexico). Funimation was a much smaller company at the time the in-house dub of DBZ was first produced. Pioneer's American division at the time was an arm of a major Japanese electronics company.

As some others have noted, commissioning a new score would have made financial sense for a small company at the time.

Televisa didn't produced the mexican dub, they only broadcasted it. The mexican dub (and the brazilian portuguese too also) was produced by Cloverway, Inc at that time.

[90sDBZ]

I remember Blue Water GT premiering in the UK on CNX literally right after Westwood Z ended. The last episode of Z aired on a Friday and the first episode of GT took its 5pm slot the following Monday.

Besides saving money, perhaps another reason Ken Morrison opted to change the cast was to have GT ready to air immediately after Z. The vast majority of the Westwood dub was rushed, with the last 2 sagas making a notable jump in quality. Perhaps the Vancouver cast were able to take their time more as their time with the franchise was coming to an end.

The fact that GT aired immediately after Z ended, and had promos airing while the fight with Kid Buu was still airing, leads me to believe work on Blue Water GT had already begun before Ocean had even finished dubbing Z. When GT first aired in the UK, it went all the way up to Goku fighting Frieza and Cell in Hell without any jump backs.

I remember CNX as a channel struggled with its lineup (it only lasted 9 months before becoming Toonami UK), and seemed to over depend on DBZ. There might have been pressure from them to have GT dubbed and ready to go as soon as Z ended, to keep interest in the channel alive rather than risk losing it with a long wait.

Maybe there was pressure on AB Groupe to deliver GT faster, who in turn may or may not have pressured Ken Morrison. We'll never know for sure, but it makes sense. Having the Vancouver cast finish Z and then do GT would have taken longer than having Blue Water dub GT simultaneously.

Another question that remains unanswered is why did Blue Water not dub the movies? Were AB Groupe too cheap for even that?

[Danfun64]

One rumor was that the AB Groupe approached YTV about movie dubs, and that when YTV said it didn't have any interest in showing the movies, and when by extension Cancon was no longer an issue, the AB Groupe decided to record locally to save money.

No offense, but while I understand OP asking about Blue Water, I'm not sure the question has much relevance for Big Green. Unlike the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, which at the very least were influenced by the Funi dub lineage, the Big Green dub is a direct descendent of the French dub. Custom OP/ED aside (and ignoring ng the alternate musical arrangement of DBZ Movie 12) France always used the original score. It isn't that surprising that Big Green followed suit.

[JohnnyCashKami]

One rumor was that the AB Groupe approached YTV about movie dubs, and that when YTV said it didn't have any interest in showing the movies, and when by extension Cancon was no longer an issue, the AB Groupe decided to record locally to save money.

No offense, but while I understand OP asking about Blue Water, I'm not sure the question has much relevance for Big Green. Unlike the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, which at the very least were influenced by the Funi dub lineage, the Big Green dub is a direct descendent of the French dub. Custom OP/ED aside (and ignoring ng the alternate musical arrangement of DBZ Movie 12) France always used the original score. It isn't that surprising that Big Green followed suit.

Exactly. The "Big Green" dub was produced by AB Groupe and they didn't go along with the music replacement bs like Saban and FUNimation did but AB Groupe did make their own custom-openings for Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and apparently Dragon Ball GT too. The DBZ OP was heavily focused around Gohan for some reason.

Really weird question by the OP and I admit I've asked odd q's too but this.. yikes.

[JohnnyCashKami]

why did Blue Water not dub the movies?

That would have been great but as far as an English AB Groupe dub, there are the "Big Green" for Movies 1 and 3, and they probably dubbed Movie 2 and 4 but we've not seen them. They also dubbed the GT TV Special.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

why did Blue Water not dub the movies?

That would have been great but as far as an English AB Groupe dub, there are the "Big Green" for Movies 1 and 3, and they probably dubbed Movie 2 and 4 but we've not seen them. They also dubbed the GT TV Special.

There absolutely were "Big Green" dubs of movies 2 and 4 released in the UK.

Movie 2 was released under the title Strongest Guy in the World:



Movie 4 was released under the title Super Saiya Son Goku:



As far as AB supposedly being behind these dubs, this is another case of confusion, like the Westwood dub. They oversaw the distribution and release of these in the UK and the Netherlands, yes (along with Warner Vision International), but they weren't behind the dub. Fans at the time inquired for information as to the origins of the "Big Green" dub, and were told that they were produced by a company called Bridge Entertainment (a Dutch dubbing company). AB simply acquired the dub and released it, but didn't actively produce it themselves. It was well-understood after many fan inquiries over the years that AB never proactively dubbed anything that wasn't specifically meant for France. They would, however, distribute to other countries, as they held (and continue to hold, albeit under a different name) the exclusive European distribution rights to the franchise.

The funny thing is, when those DVD releases were initially announced for the UK in 2003 by Warner Vision Internatrional, many people wondered if it meant that the Ocean cast had actually dubbed movie 4 for release in Europe. No information as to the cast or origin of the dub was ever revealed prior to the release of these DVDs, except it was clear that it wouldn't be the FUNimation dub. It was a sad realisation for fans in the UK who pre-ordered the DVDs hoping for the Ocean cast, only to find out what it really was. The "Big Green" dub is notoriously bad, although in hindsight it does at least offer some unintentional entertainment value.

[90sDBZ]

why did Blue Water not dub the movies?

That would have been great but as far as an English AB Groupe dub, there are the "Big Green" for Movies 1 and 3, and they probably dubbed Movie 2 and 4 but we've not seen them. They also dubbed the GT TV Special.

Do you mean the OG DB movies? Because the Big Green cast definitely dubbed Movie 2 along with 1 and 3, but not Path to Power. Movies 1-3 aired on Toonami UK back in summer 2005 along with the GT special. I know this for a fact because I watched them at the time.

[JohnnyCashKami]

why did Blue Water not dub the movies?

That would have been great but as far as an English AB Groupe dub, there are the "Big Green" for Movies 1 and 3, and they probably dubbed Movie 2 and 4 but we've not seen them. They also dubbed the GT TV Special.

Do you mean the OG DB movies? Because the Big Green cast definitely dubbed Movie 2 along with 1 and 3, but not Path to Power. Movies 1-3 aired on Toonami UK back in summer 2005 along with the GT special. I know this for a fact because I watched them at the time.

I almost want to vomit when I read "OG DB" but yes, the Dragon Ball Movies 2 and 4 not the Dragon Ball Z Movies 2 and 4.

[Super Sayian Prime]

As far as AB supposedly being behind these dubs, this is another case of confusion, like the Westwood dub. They oversaw the distribution and release of these in the UK and the Netherlands, yes (along with Warner Vision International), but they weren't behind the dub. Fans at the time inquired for information as to the origins of the "Big Green" dub, and were told that they were produced by a company called Bridge Entertainment (a Dutch dubbing company). AB simply acquired the dub and released it, but didn't actively produce it themselves. It was well-understood after many fan inquiries over the years that AB never proactively dubbed anything that wasn't specifically meant for France. They would, however, distribute to other countries, as they held (and continue to hold, albeit under a different name) the exclusive European distribution rights to the franchise.

Except the voice actors were all Parisians ...

[Robo4900]

One rumor was that the AB Groupe approached YTV about movie dubs, and that when YTV said it didn't have any interest in showing the movies, and when by extension Cancon was no longer an issue, the AB Groupe decided to record locally to save money.

AB Groupe's only involvement in the Westwood dubs was distribution, and provision of video masters. The Big Green dubs were not only unrelated to the Westwood dubs, but were actually produced no later than 2001, judging by the Dutch DVD copyright dates.

That would have been great but as far as an English AB Groupe dub, there are the "Big Green" for Movies 1 and 3, and they probably dubbed Movie 2 and 4 but we've not seen them. They also dubbed the GT TV Special.

There absolutely were "Big Green" dubs of movies 2 and 4 released in the UK.

Movie 4 was released under the title Super Saiya Son Goku:

Additional confirmation: I actually own the Super Saiya Son Goku UK DVD.

As far as AB supposedly being behind these dubs, this is another case of confusion, like the Westwood dub. They oversaw the distribution and release of these in the UK and the Netherlands, yes (along with Warner Vision International), but they weren't behind the dub. Fans at the time inquired for information as to the origins of the "Big Green" dub, and were told that they were produced by a company called Bridge Entertainment (a Dutch dubbing company). AB simply acquired the dub and released it, but didn't actively produce it themselves. It was well-understood after many fan inquiries over the years that AB never proactively dubbed anything that wasn't specifically meant for France. They would, however, distribute to other countries, as they held (and continue to hold, albeit under a different name) the exclusive European distribution rights to the franchise.

The funny thing is, when those DVD releases were initially announced for the UK in 2003 by Warner Vision Internatrional, many people wondered if it meant that the Ocean cast had actually dubbed movie 4 for release in Europe. No information as to the cast or origin of the dub was ever revealed prior to the release of these DVDs, except it was clear that it wouldn't be the FUNimation dub. It was a sad realisation for fans in the UK who pre-ordered the DVDs hoping for the Ocean cast, only to find out what it really was. The "Big Green" dub is notoriously bad, although in hindsight it does at least offer some unintentional entertainment value.

All very interesting.
And yeah, Big Green, if you're expecting something more like Ocean's dubbing, is disappointing. Going in knowing it's a gag dub, though... Probably the only way I'll ever rewatch DBZ movie 4; far more entertaining than the slog it is in Japanese or via the Funi dub.

However, I'm sceptical about it entirely being a Dutch production with no AB involvement... See below.

Except the voice actors were all Parisians ...

Indeed. And not only that, David Gasman outright mentioned AB as being the ones who dubbed it:

Yo, I do play some of the games I'm in.
As for Z, none of us knew the series at all when we did it. I bought a ton of eps and watched them after, but it was too late.
We could have been SO MUCH BETTER if we'd known what the hell we we were doing. AB was in a hurry and we kind of just showed up and ripped through them. I'm actually sort of proud that they are even as good they are.
I'd love to do Rayman again.
Thanks for all the love,
David Gasman

[DrBriefsCat]

And some of those international dubs were bankrolled by big multi-media conglomerates like AB Groupe (France) and Televisa (Mexico). Funimation was a much smaller company at the time the in-house dub of DBZ was first produced. Pioneer's American division at the time was an arm of a major Japanese electronics company.

As some others have noted, commissioning a new score would have made financial sense for a small company at the time.

Televisa didn't produced the mexican dub, they only broadcasted it. The mexican dub (and the brazilian portuguese too also) was produced by Cloverway, Inc at that time.

I stand corrected.