Thoughts on Vegeta post-Namek Earth filler

[90sDBZ]

How do you guys feel about this filler? I mean the scenes with Vegeta acting like a dick on earth while Goku is still fighting Frieza on Namek. I've always felt it to be out of character for him at that point, and just over the top in general.

He was still a far cry away from being a good guy, but him dying and then being revived was supposed to be something of a turning point for him. Basically he was meant to be calming down a bit at this time.

During the filler he laughs at Gohan that his father is as good as dead, says he plans to take over Earth and wish for immortality, and beats Gohan to a pulp and almost kills him before flying off. Then on the next episode, which is no longer filler, it's like the whole thing never happened. Vegeta's hanging around quietly in the background, Gohan hasn't got a scratch on him, and there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between them. He then goes on to suggest a way that Goku could be revived, despite laughing about his demise and expressing interest in immortality on the previous episode.

For obvious reasons this filler sticks out like a sore thumb, and one of the biggest points is Vegeta still wanting immortality when his goal has supposed to have changed to becoming a Super Saiyan at this point. Vegeta is supposed to have become more prideful at this point, which is what we see in the Cell arc where he insists on fighting his enemies head on instead of sneaking around like on Namek.

He also expresses joy that Goku and Frieza will both die on Namek, thus making him the strongest by default. Totally out of character.

This is one time where Kai wins over Z for removing those scenes and making Vegeta's progression feel more natural.

Thoughts?

[MyVisionity]

This filler is probably my favorite Vegeta filler and contains some of my favorite Vegeta moments ever. I enjoy how over the top he is in it. I don't really think the inconsistencies are too noticeable; I always thought it made sense that Vegeta was back the next episode after he flew off. And for someone who was just back from the dead, I thought his attitude was fitting.

[Forte224]

This filler is probably my favorite Vegeta filler and contains some of my favorite Vegeta moments ever. I enjoy how over the top he is in it. I don't really think the inconsistencies are too noticeable; I always thought it made sense that Vegeta was back the next episode after he flew off. And for someone who was just back from the dead, I thought his attitude was fitting.

How does it make sense that he was back after he flew off?

Anyway, I'm not a huge fan of his attitude in the episode where he beats Gohan up. Seeing him start crying in his final fight against Freeza was supposed to be the moment he finally understood what fear and helplessness felt like. Or at least, Kaio said something like that in Kai and the original show, I can't remember if he did in the manga. But I always liked how post-Namek in the manga that always felt pretty consistent. He could have easily killed off everyone except maybe Piccolo, yet he chose not to. He certainly wasn't a good guy yet, but he wasn't the old Vegeta anymore either. Filler like the Gohan beat down just felt too inconsistent with everything else.

[MyVisionity]

This filler is probably my favorite Vegeta filler and contains some of my favorite Vegeta moments ever. I enjoy how over the top he is in it. I don't really think the inconsistencies are too noticeable; I always thought it made sense that Vegeta was back the next episode after he flew off. And for someone who was just back from the dead, I thought his attitude was fitting.

How does it make sense that he was back after he flew off?

I always saw it as him blowing off some steam. And to some extent, him needing to clear his head. "Your optimism makes me sick!", or whatever it was he said, to me suggests that he was dealing with some deeper conflict surrounding his feelings toward Goku, and life and death in general. Aside from that, it's like well where the fuck else is he gonna go? He's an alien stranded on Earth.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

To be honest, i feel that one filler scene in particular where Vegeta mercilessly pounds Gohan almost within an inch of his life before Piccolo finally steps in tells him to back off was a little too out there, and not to mention inconsistent with the actual manga related material. The way the have that in there even with what happens after Freeza sadistically shoots him through the chest and his outpouring of emotions to Goku before he died just felt too unnatural to me. I am glad that it's one of the bits of filler that got cut from Kai because if never really meshed well IMO with the development of his character as we know during the progression of the series, and not to mention he was the one who was asking for it by straight up boasting and laughing about Goku's supposed death on Planet Namek right in front of Gohan no less. Some may disagree on that point but yeah

So basically, i really have never liked that segment either in Japanese or FUNi's dub to be perfectly frank.

[Kinokima]

I am not a big fan of those filler moments either but Toei also at least gave us some (as minimal as it was) interaction between Bulma and Vegeta

I guess you win some and lose some with filler

[90sDBZ]

I always saw it as him blowing off some steam. And to some extent, him needing to clear his head. "Your optimism makes me sick!", or whatever it was he said, to me suggests that he was dealing with some deeper conflict surrounding his feelings toward Goku, and life and death in general. Aside from that, it's like well where the fuck else is he gonna go? He's an alien stranded on Earth.

The way he acted in all those filler scenes came across as much more sadistic than angry. He was acting like a playground bully picking on those weaker than him, not the prideful warrior who later insists on fighting the Androids head on and lets Cell become Perfect for the sake of a challenge.

And him being back there after flying off makes zero sense. Why would he feel the need to come back and hang out with them after doing that? And why would they just accept it? Even in Z I always found it easier just to pretend those scenes never happened once they were over.

[ABED]

Breaking down may have been the real start of his development, but it didn't mean he understood it nor do I think he would be any nicer because of it, at least not immediately. In the Viz translation, it just says for the first time he feels despair and sheds tears, which makes way more sense than "understanding" it. Honestly, beating the shit out of Gohan makes more sense coming from him than just being a grump. The flying off and being back the next episode doesn't make any sense, though. I honestly don't know why people insist that Vegeta's breakdown when HE'S DYING would make him nicer. Development isn't a straight line. Lashing out feels right for him.

Overall I like the filler even if it's incongruous with what came an episode later.

[90sDBZ]

Breaking down may have been the real start of his development, but it didn't mean he understood it nor do I think he would be any nicer because of it, at least not immediately. In the Viz translation, it just says for the first time he feels despair and sheds tears, which makes way more sense than "understanding" it. Honestly, beating the shit out of Gohan makes more sense coming from him than just being a grump. The flying off and being back the next episode doesn't make any sense, though. I honestly don't know why people insist that Vegeta's breakdown when HE'S DYING would make him nicer. Development isn't a straight line. Lashing out feels right for him.

Overall I like the filler even if it's incongruous with what came an episode later.

It's not exactly about him being nicer. It's about him being humiliated and humbled more than ever before, having Frieza defeated by someone other than himself, so keeping his head down and staying quiet while reflecting on things makes much more sense. That's how the manga had it anyway.

It also makes no sense for him to say he's going to wish for immortality, only to immediately do a 180 and offer advice on reviving Goku instead. Toei were trying to have him act like his former self, but the old Vegeta never would have behaved himself the way he does after the filler.

It's also a contradiction of his character wanting Goku and Frieza both to die on Namek so he wouldn't have to fight them himself. He wanted to regain his honour as the strongest Saiyan, and Goku dying by someone else's hand would rob him of that. Just look how he reacts to Goku's death at the Cell Games.

[ABED]

He was humiliated, but I don't see how that would neccessarily humble him. While I agree your take makes sense, it doesn't make any more sense than him lashing out after being humiliated. Keep in mind this is almost right after he was revived.

Just look how he reacts to Goku's death at the Cell Games.

Completely different point in his development.

I have a MUCH harder time believing he would've been as helpful as he was when he got to Earth. I might give you not being gleeful at Goku's death. I don't remember the scene well, but him beating the hell out of Gohan and lording it over everyone feels very in character.

[90sDBZ]

He was humiliated, but I don't see how that would neccessarily humble him. While I agree your take makes sense, it doesn't make any more sense than him lashing out after being humiliated. Keep in mind this is almost right after he was revived.

Just look how he reacts to Goku's death at the Cell Games.

Completely different point in his development.

I have a MUCH harder time believing he would've been as helpful as he was when he got to Earth. I might give you not being gleeful at Goku's death. I don't remember the scene well, but him beating the hell out of Gohan and lording it over everyone feels very in character.

Him lashing out and acting like a dick for no reason could have worked, if it didn't directly clash with how he acts immediately after and for the next stretch of the story. If he'd continued acting that way going forward I might buy it, but he doesn't.

In the Trunks arc he's shown to be an uptight and unpleasant jerk, but otherwise calm and not a threat. Going forward he wants nothing but to prove himself against strong opponents, and shows no interest in bullying around innocent people.

[ABED]

It doesn't neccessarily clash because he wasn't really trying to kill Gohan or anyone. And he doesn't even have to act that way the entire time going forward for his change of character to work. Part of my problem going forward is practically how amiable he is in comparison to before and getting brutalized by Freeza isn't enough. I get him wanting to wait for GOku, but I like the idea of him going off searching for Goku instead of being passive. In the Cell arc, he has an active and specific goal which keeps him more or less in line. How is passively waiting for Goku in character for him?

What about that one defeat makes you buy Vegeta's HUGE change in personality? He's so incredibly passive for much of the story. As presented, it feels like Vegeta's arc is missing a beat.

[MyVisionity]

I always saw it as him blowing off some steam. And to some extent, him needing to clear his head. "Your optimism makes me sick!", or whatever it was he said, to me suggests that he was dealing with some deeper conflict surrounding his feelings toward Goku, and life and death in general. Aside from that, it's like well where the fuck else is he gonna go? He's an alien stranded on Earth.

The way he acted in all those filler scenes came across as much more sadistic than angry. He was acting like a playground bully picking on those weaker than him, not the prideful warrior who later insists on fighting the Androids head on and lets Cell become Perfect for the sake of a challenge.

Sadistic at first maybe, but when he flew off he was pissed at everyone's optimism. I saw it as a combination of Vegeta having some fun after having been brought back from death and him dealing with Goku's supposed death in his own way.

And him being back there after flying off makes zero sense. Why would he feel the need to come back and hang out with them after doing that? And why would they just accept it? Even in Z I always found it easier just to pretend those scenes never happened once they were over.

Who else is he going to hang out with? And he's gonna need a way off Earth eventually. They accept it because he's calmed down, and it's not like he killed Gohan or something. It's just Vegeta being Vegeta. He's not some evil tyrant like Freeza, just an asshole.

It also makes no sense for him to say he's going to wish for immortality, only to immediately do a 180 and offer advice on reviving Goku instead. Toei were trying to have him act like his former self, but the old Vegeta never would have behaved himself the way he does after the filler.

Again, he had calmed down by this point. And Vegeta didn't just offer advice out of nowhere, everyone was already talking and trying to figure out how to revive Goku but couldn't, so why not speak up and tell them? Especially after that encounter with Gohan, Vegeta realizes how determined these people are, and probably respects it more. Plus look at the way Vegeta reacts after Gohan thanks him. He's not pleasant about it. If anything, he may already have been thinking about learning what he could from Goku to become a Super Saiyajin.

[Dbzfan94]

Honestly I love that filler purely because how he just starts throwing grass into the air. It’s supposed to be serious but comes off as really silly and can’t help but laugh

[90sDBZ]

It doesn't neccessarily clash because he wasn't really trying to kill Gohan or anyone. And he doesn't even have to act that way the entire time going forward for his change of character to work. Part of my problem going forward is practically how amiable he is in comparison to before and getting brutalized by Freeza isn't enough. I get him wanting to wait for GOku, but I like the idea of him going off searching for Goku instead of being passive. In the Cell arc, he has an active and specific goal which keeps him more or less in line. How is passively waiting for Goku in character for him?

What about that one defeat makes you buy Vegeta's HUGE change in personality? He's so incredibly passive for much of the story. As presented, it feels like Vegeta's arc is missing a beat.

He was about to blast Gohan to death before Piccolo stepped in. I don't have a problem with him going into space, in fact I like that filler too. But I do have a problem with him spending 3-4 episodes laughing about how Goku's going to die and how he'll rule the universe, only to turn around and offer advise to revive Goku. It throws character continuity out the window for the sake of having him fight Gohan. Him bullying weaklings isn't going to help his goal of being the best anyway.

I always saw it as him blowing off some steam. And to some extent, him needing to clear his head. "Your optimism makes me sick!", or whatever it was he said, to me suggests that he was dealing with some deeper conflict surrounding his feelings toward Goku, and life and death in general. Aside from that, it's like well where the fuck else is he gonna go? He's an alien stranded on Earth.

The way he acted in all those filler scenes came across as much more sadistic than angry. He was acting like a playground bully picking on those weaker than him, not the prideful warrior who later insists on fighting the Androids head on and lets Cell become Perfect for the sake of a challenge.

Sadistic at first maybe, but when he flew off he was pissed at everyone's optimism. I saw it as a combination of Vegeta having some fun after having been brought back from death and him dealing with Goku's supposed death in his own way.

And him being back there after flying off makes zero sense. Why would he feel the need to come back and hang out with them after doing that? And why would they just accept it? Even in Z I always found it easier just to pretend those scenes never happened once they were over.

Who else is he going to hang out with? And he's gonna need a way off Earth eventually. They accept it because he's calmed down, and it's not like he killed Gohan or something. It's just Vegeta being Vegeta. He's not some evil tyrant like Freeza, just an asshole.

It also makes no sense for him to say he's going to wish for immortality, only to immediately do a 180 and offer advice on reviving Goku instead. Toei were trying to have him act like his former self, but the old Vegeta never would have behaved himself the way he does after the filler.

Again, he had calmed down by this point. And Vegeta didn't just offer advice out of nowhere, everyone was already talking and trying to figure out how to revive Goku but couldn't, so why not speak up and tell them? Especially after that encounter with Gohan, Vegeta realizes how determined these people are, and probably respects it more. Plus look at the way Vegeta reacts after Gohan thanks him. He's not pleasant about it. If anything, he may already have been thinking about learning what he could from Goku to become a Super Saiyajin.

You make it sound like the whole thing was just him blowing off steam. He was in a great mood for 3-4 episodes making it clear he was ecstatic about the situation, and constantly rubbing Goku's inpending doom in their faces. Then he himself speaks up about how they can revive Goku. That isn't him "just calming down" when he wasn't even angry while he said all that awful stuff.

No matter how you try to justify it, there's no logical explanation for him flying off then being back. I mean what did he do? Fly back and say "Sorry guys I got carried away there for a minute. Continue as you were while I quietly fade into the background".

And why would he suddenly regain respect for them there but not after all the shit they went through on Namek? I think you're grasping at straws.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It doesn't neccessarily clash because he wasn't really trying to kill Gohan or anyone. And he doesn't even have to act that way the entire time going forward for his change of character to work. Part of my problem going forward is practically how amiable he is in comparison to before and getting brutalized by Freeza isn't enough. I get him wanting to wait for GOku, but I like the idea of him going off searching for Goku instead of being passive. In the Cell arc, he has an active and specific goal which keeps him more or less in line. How is passively waiting for Goku in character for him?

What about that one defeat makes you buy Vegeta's HUGE change in personality? He's so incredibly passive for much of the story. As presented, it feels like Vegeta's arc is missing a beat.

He was about to blast Gohan to death before Piccolo stepped in. I don't have a problem with him going into space, in fact I like that filler too. But I do have a problem with him spending 3-4 episodes laughing about how Goku's going to die and how he'll rule the universe, only to turn around and offer advise to revive Goku. It throws character continuity out the window for the sake of having him fight Gohan. Him bullying weaklings isn't going to help his goal of being the best anyway.

The way he acted in all those filler scenes came across as much more sadistic than angry. He was acting like a playground bully picking on those weaker than him, not the prideful warrior who later insists on fighting the Androids head on and lets Cell become Perfect for the sake of a challenge.

Sadistic at first maybe, but when he flew off he was pissed at everyone's optimism. I saw it as a combination of Vegeta having some fun after having been brought back from death and him dealing with Goku's supposed death in his own way.

And him being back there after flying off makes zero sense. Why would he feel the need to come back and hang out with them after doing that? And why would they just accept it? Even in Z I always found it easier just to pretend those scenes never happened once they were over.

Who else is he going to hang out with? And he's gonna need a way off Earth eventually. They accept it because he's calmed down, and it's not like he killed Gohan or something. It's just Vegeta being Vegeta. He's not some evil tyrant like Freeza, just an asshole.

It also makes no sense for him to say he's going to wish for immortality, only to immediately do a 180 and offer advice on reviving Goku instead. Toei were trying to have him act like his former self, but the old Vegeta never would have behaved himself the way he does after the filler.

Again, he had calmed down by this point. And Vegeta didn't just offer advice out of nowhere, everyone was already talking and trying to figure out how to revive Goku but couldn't, so why not speak up and tell them? Especially after that encounter with Gohan, Vegeta realizes how determined these people are, and probably respects it more. Plus look at the way Vegeta reacts after Gohan thanks him. He's not pleasant about it. If anything, he may already have been thinking about learning what he could from Goku to become a Super Saiyajin.

You make it sound like the whole thing was just him blowing off steam. He was in a great mood for 3-4 episodes making it clear he was ecstatic about the situation, and constantly rubbing Goku's inpending doom in their faces. Then he himself speaks up about how they can revive Goku. That isn't him "just calming down" when he wasn't even angry while he said all that awful stuff.

No matter how you try to justify it, there's no logical explanation for him flying off then being back. I mean what did he do? Fly back and say "Sorry guys I got carried away there for a minute. Continue as you were while I quietly fade into the background".

And why would he suddenly regain respect for them there but not after all the shit they went through on Namek? I think you're grasping at straws.

Yes, that's the one i particularly don't like because it clashes so much with the material surrounding. Vegeta just laughing it up about Goku potentially getting killed on Planet Namek made my eyes roll, and doing all that boasting and such right in front of his son made it to where he was asking for it and then he proceeds to just absolutely and mercilessly pound the shit out of Gohan then nearly killed him after being attacked in retaliation for his yapping about "Kakarott's going to die and i shall rule the universe" and so on. The bits with him in space are ok for the most part, but as for the former i am glad it was excised from Kai because it just feels so unnatural in comparison to what comes before and after.

[MyVisionity]

You make it sound like the whole thing was just him blowing off steam. He was in a great mood for 3-4 episodes making it clear he was ecstatic about the situation, and constantly rubbing Goku's inpending doom in their faces. Then he himself speaks up about how they can revive Goku. That isn't him "just calming down" when he wasn't even angry while he said all that awful stuff.

No I meant that he flew away to go blow off some steam because he was angry after hearing Gohan's words. He was in a good mood previously because things were seemingly falling into place for him with Goku/Freeza out of the way.

No matter how you try to justify it, there's no logical explanation for him flying off then being back. I mean what did he do? Fly back and say "Sorry guys I got carried away there for a minute. Continue as you were while I quietly fade into the background".

He flew back shortly after he had cooled down, but I doubt he apologized. He just silently went back to minding his own business. No one really cares about what he did earlier.

And why would he suddenly regain respect for them there but not after all the shit they went through on Namek? I think you're grasping at straws.

He probably respects Gohan more after they fought, and had a chance to calm down. That's in addition to Namek and everything else. So for Vegeta, he's probably showing his respect by helping them out. And he also wants Goku alive for himself, despite his tough guy act.

[ABED]

I said I liked the filler, not its incongruity. I'm well aware that it doesn't fit the story, but I do think him being a giant douchebag instead of a grump is more fitting of where he was at at this point in his development.

While it's a valid reading that he was going to kill Gohan, it's not a sure thing considering how little Piccolo had to do to convince Vegeta to stop. He could've just been looking to hurt him badly, but not necessarily kill him since there would be no point in killing someone far weaker than himself. Having him be passive is not in keeping with his character. Why would his loss change that?

Him bullying weaklings isn't going to help his goal of being the best anyway.

What do you think my point is? I simply said I liked the filler and found it more in keeping with Vegeta's character at that point, not that it made sense with the surrounding episodes. However, him being helpful feels a step too far at that point.

Him bullying weaklings isn't going to help his goal of being the best anyway.

Agreed, but this is Vegeta, a guy who constantly makes decisions that are questionable. He's a villain!

[Cursed Lemon]

Well, expecting Shakespearean depth out of characters in Dragon Ball Z is probably me being wildly unrealistic, but I also thought that Vegeta's macho display there contrasts with his intelligence and the contemplative trait that we all know he has. Compare/contrast the end of Movie 12 - Vegeta could've told Goku to fuck off, but instead he was well aware of his own situation and conveyed his emotions in the tight-lipped subtlety that he's famous for. It's true that Vegeta was still the "bad guy" there, so it's inherently difficult to write him any other way and have the story progress as it did. For example, if he just bolts because he has to go reevaluate his shit, Trunks never happens.

[90sDBZ]

Another thing I remembered is Vegeta going out of his way to save Gohan from Frieza's death beam right after Frieza goes to his Final Form. He had nothing to gain from it as he believed he could take Frieza alone. It was the first sign that maybe there was a better side to him, yet the later filler works against it.

Vegeta dies crying and begging Goku to kill Frieza, then repays him by laughing about his death and beating up and nearly killing his son. That rubs me up the wrong way as it's too much even for him.

The earth filler is also inconsistent with other filler, like Goku's vision where Vegeta encourages him, or the filler where Vegeta meets SS Goku for the first time on Namek and acts pleased for him. After all that the earth filler makes him seem incredibly 2 faced, something Vegeta is not meant to be.