Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Jord » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:07 am

If anybody remembered, there are no genders among the Nameks making Piccolo officially genderless. This is kind of progressive for it's time, especially considering how gay people were portrayed in certain parts of the show.

I've talked about this recently with some of my LGBTQQIP2SAA friends and it really didn't occur to us when we originally watched the series due to Piccolo being described referred to as a he.
That being said, with the current times in mind, this would be a great way to bring Piccolo back into the spotlight. He's basically been a background character after his fight with 17 and the only notable thing (besides being comic relief) was his death in GT. Such a shame because he's an awesome character, from design to voice work to his techniques.

It would be such a big step for the LGBTQQIP2SAA community if Piccolo got put into the spotlight with this aspect highlighted a bit. (a side-adventure on New Namek perhaps?) This could be done just in time for the 2020 olympics

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Xell » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:45 am

I don’t disagree.

That’s a long abbreviation though. Wow.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Michsi » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:58 am

Demons and angels being depicted as genderless is, if I recall, something that's been around for ages. Not to mention that aliens have been presented in fiction with atypical biology since the 70's specifically because they were alien - which is not something I think the LGBTQ community needs when it comes to representation. My two cents.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:04 am

Two things:

1) The nameks aren't the only species biologically genderless. The kais also are also genderless for example, so this isn't something unique to Piccolo.

2) Even though these species are biologically genderless, they are still referred to as male or female. Zamasu is referred to as "he", same thing for Piccolo, while the Supreme Kai of Time is referred to as "she". So it's not correct to say that they are genderless in general.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:19 am

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:47 am

I have a simpler solution: how about we stop projecting our identity politics onto some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:48 am

jjgp1112 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:47 am
I have a simpler solution: how about we keep identity politics out of some dumb kung-Fu cartoon?
This is not an appropriate response.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:57 am

Xell wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:45 am
I don’t disagree.

That’s a long abbreviation though. Wow.
We need to start moving over to GSRM (gender, sex, and racial minorities) eventually but I suppose old habits die hard.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:28 pm

Personally, I think it's better to just have a character represent a minority, and play it off as nothing, rather than "Promote" that. In Avengers Endgame, there's the scene towards the beginning that just casually has a gay character played by the movie's co-director. It's not challenged, it's not made a big deal of, it's treated as the norm. As it should be. Gay people, non-binary people, trans people, etc. etc. do exist, and in my experience, the best way to handle that in media that isn't explicitly about the experience of being gay, non-binary, trans, etc. is to just depict characters in those minorities, as regular additions to the cast who are... Just people, y'know?

So, I think Piccolo being genderless (and presumably asexual too?) is kind of neat. And there is something to be said for the fact that, as a member of a genderless species, he does have a preference of which gender people refer to him as. It's pretty neat, whether or not Toriyama ever intended to be progressive like this (he probably didn't, but artist's intent doesn't count for much, really. Dark Knight Returns is seen as a brilliant piece of deconstructionist satire like Watchmen, but Frank Miller never intended any satire when writing it).

One thing that would be pretty neat for this observation would be if, in the next arc of the Super anime, we see a Namekian presenting as female.

Re: Abbreviations: You're never going to cover everyone, so the conclusion I've come to is to say "LGBTQ+", and people will get the idea, and anyone not necessarily covered completely by that will understand. Naturally, cishet people are often somewhat afraid of saying the wrong thing and offending LGBTQ+ people, but in my experience, as long as it's clear you're trying, and you have no ill intent, no one will hold things like this against you, even if the mistake is as big as a misgendering; you'll be corrected, but generally people won't get cross at you. :)
The abbreviation in this topic title is probably a bit overkill, but honestly, who cares. It's not hurting anyone, and it's in an effort to be more inclusive, so why quibble about it? :)
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:49 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:28 pm
Personally, I think it's better to just have a character represent a minority, and play it off as nothing, rather than "Promote" that. In Avengers Endgame, there's the scene towards the beginning that just casually has a gay character played by the movie's co-director. It's not challenged, it's not made a big deal of, it's treated as the norm. As it should be. Gay people, non-binary people, trans people, etc. etc. do exist, and in my experience, the best way to handle that in media that isn't explicitly about the experience of being gay, non-binary, trans, etc. is to just depict characters in those minorities, as regular additions to the cast who are... Just people, y'know?

So, I think Piccolo being genderless (and presumably asexual too?) is kind of neat. And there is something to be said for the fact that, as a member of a genderless species, he does have a preference of which gender people refer to him as. It's pretty neat, whether or not Toriyama ever intended to be progressive like this (he probably didn't, but artist's intent doesn't count for much, really. Dark Knight Returns is seen as a brilliant piece of deconstructionist satire like Watchmen, but Frank Miller never intended any satire when writing it).

One thing that would be pretty neat for this observation would be if, in the next arc of the Super anime, we see a Namekian presenting as female.

Re: Abbreviations: You're never going to cover everyone, so the conclusion I've come to is to say "LGBTQ+", and people will get the idea, and anyone not necessarily covered completely by that will understand. Naturally, cishet people are often somewhat afraid of saying the wrong thing and offending LGBTQ+ people, but in my experience, as long as it's clear you're trying, and you have no ill intent, no one will hold things like this against you, even if the mistake is as big as a misgendering; you'll be corrected, but generally people won't get cross at you. :)
The abbreviation in this topic title is probably a bit overkill, but honestly, who cares. It's not hurting anyone, and it's in an effort to be more inclusive, so why quibble about it? :)
I was thinking the same. There’s really no reason to put more spotlight on it then there already is.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:58 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:28 pm
The abbreviation in this topic title is probably a bit overkill
Definitely. LGBTQQIP2SAA feels less like an abbreviation and more like a password in a videogame. As someone that's very much pro-LGBT, I try not to go any longer than that abbreviation. LGBTQ is probably okay, but by the time you get to LGBTQIA+, it's beginning to feel like self-parody, and just serves as fuel for mockery and derision. It's not the biggest barrier against LGBT rights by any means, but there's no reason to make the hill even steeper than it already is by making the movement's very name sound silly.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 pm

It's ill-advised to tell intersex and asexual folk that they're going to make the community sound silly.

I'm going to go out on a limb and be that bitch that says the entire purpose of this thread is to make the community look ridiculous.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:32 pm

Genderless wasn't unique to namekians. Oceanus Shenron could be a good example of actual LGBT type of character as many people often use that ugly "trap" word when talking about her. Even though Nuova and Eis were called brothers, dragons might be genderless and simply have some gender specific traits, just like Digimon. While Pokemon had some male and female species, Digimon never had official gender. Still, it didn't stop male-type of Digimon being attracted to female-type and vice versa.

Tbh i can't wait for Shadow Dragons to appear in DB Legends as this game described gender of characters before. They removed it sadly but there is still a "Female Warriors" tag which i wonder if it will appear on Oceanus. Also, some characters have unknown gender in game, including obvious male-type characters like Paikuhan and pure androids like 13, even Gero has unknown gender.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm

I would love a scene where Piccolo had to correct someone for calling them a man or trying to make a move on them.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 pm
It's ill-advised to tell intersex and asexual folk that they're going to make the community sound silly.
All I said is that the length of the abbreviation looks silly. I never said anything at all about intersex people or asexual people themselves, who I advocate for as much as any other non-cis, non-het group.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:37 pm

well i would be all for more non-binary depictions in media, i do think it's pretty clear that "genderless" really just means they don't have sexual organs or anything like that, so i don't think it'd make to much sense. still, it would rule if namekians, or even cell, were referred to with "they/them" pronouns. maybe it'd help the singular they catch on more with people, i dunno! i wish it did, that's for sure.
Dr. Casey wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:58 pm
Definitely. LGBTQQIP2SAA feels less like an abbreviation and more like a password in a videogame. As someone that's very much pro-LGBT, I try not to go any longer than that abbreviation. LGBTQ is probably okay, but by the time you get to LGBTQIA+, it's beginning to feel like self-parody, and just serves as fuel for mockery and derision. It's not the biggest barrier against LGBT rights by any means, but there's no reason to make the hill even steeper than it already is by making the movement's very name sound silly.
i don't really see what's wrong with LGBTQIA+, it's really not that long and it does cover some of the more underrepresented people within the community, and for what it's worth, i don't really see most people go beyond LGBTQIA+.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:55 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:36 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:12 pm
It's ill-advised to tell intersex and asexual folk that they're going to make the community sound silly.
All I said is that the length of the abbreviation looks silly. I never said anything at all about intersex people or asexual people themselves, who I advocate for as much as any other non-cis, non-het group.
That was a softball response because I didn't want to ream into you too hard. I want you to be careful with how you approach the subject because I don't think you realize that what you said sounds an awful lot like "their representation makes the community sound silly."

This is definitely why I think we should try to move to GSRM when we can.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Dr. Casey » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:58 pm

LGBTQIA+ isn't really bad, but... eh. I don't know. It's long enough that it could inspire mockery from the type of crowd that grasps at straws to attack the LGBT+ demographic. Debate and bickering surrounding the name could, up to a certain point and at certain times, overshadow conversation regarding the subject itself. People can sometimes glom onto something and blow up its importance to ridiculous extremes.

I guess participation trophies would be one example of this. In truth, they're pretty much just souvenirs so that you can have a memento regarding a certain event or game, but people make the ridiculous leap of logic that participation trophies have somehow played a pivotal role of spoiling an entire generation of children. In truth, one's self-esteem is dictated by thousands of different variables (genetics play some role, but the most important factor is the way one is treated and received by their family and friends, particularly when growing up), with participation trophies really meaning no more than a single drop of water would to the ocean. But if I tried to say this to a random 50 year old on BuzzFeed, there's a good chance they'd go "Nope. Participation trophies ruined you all. Everyone's a winner, smh."

It's of course completely possible that I'm being paranoid over nothing and talking out my ass and that LGBTQIA+ would be accepted by the general populace without any kind of problem.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:07 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:58 pm
It's of course completely possible that I'm being paranoid over nothing and talking out my ass and that LGBTQIA+ would be accepted by the general populace without any kind of problem.
i do understand that, and that's why i mostly use LGBTQ+, especially in like non queer spaces. but i don't think it's a big deal for most people, and certainly if someone isn't willingly to support a community because the acronym is too long,,,,,then yeah, can't imagine they ever actually cared or would ever care.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:12 pm

The Neanderthals that think sports trophies are actually demeaned by the existence of a participation trophy are so pathetic. So what if the kids didn't 'win' a fucking game. You won't teach them a goddamned thing by trying to psychologically traumatize them. They're kids having fun, give them a trophy to make them feel special, it's not going to ruin their lives.

Goodness' sake, sports should be teaching you the thrill of self-improvement and self-love, not to see yourself as being better than the other kid.
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