Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[SupremeKai25]

But not better than having a new original interesting character with a good personality and design, something they can no longer do.

Actually, yes, they can do that, refer to Zamasu and Hit. And better than having a bunch of one-note villains like the Z movie villains.

Is what makes it uncreative. Two movies in a row, not cheap half assed movies, two event movies by Toriyama had to bring back villains from Z. Yes that's uncreative, especially as they didn't add to Frieza's personality in Resurrection F.

But... you just said those characters were shallow... and then Super tried to give them some personality... so why are you going after Super instead of Z, you know, the series that created those shallow villains (your word)?

Also, yes, they added a new trait to Freeza's personality in RoF, they made him train, which is something he had never done before and proved he was willing to adapt to beat his opponents.

You can, but it just means I'm only skimming through and giving half assed answers.

I noticed.

Because it shows how uncreative the man is now that the three movies he's worked on has one new character he didn't come up with, an old character and an old character he didn't come up with.

But this thread is about Dragon Ball as a whole, not just Toriyama. Also, I'd argue Toriyama was already becoming uncreative by the time of the Buu arc to be honest.

Well there you go. I never said taking energy from another living being was the creative part in my breakdown of what happened.

How convenient that you removed the part where I explaineed that. The earthlings giving energy to Goku against Buu and the lifeforms of Namek giving energy to Goku vs Freeza serves the same thematic purpose of the weak standing together against a self-proclaimed destructive force. There really isn't much difference, aside from the fact that vs Freeza the Spirit Bomb overpowered him, whereas vs Buu the Spirit Bomb would have failed without the divine intervention of the dragon.

Which played a significant part of the plot and the difference in the Dragon Balls and how they were to be used when compared to the other Dragon Balls played a part in the story of significance.

The Time Ring did not. Like the device used by Xeno Pan in the last SDBH episode, it's just a different way of doing the same thing.

How did the time rings not play a significant part in the story? They were the crux of Zamasu's plan. He needed the time ring to travel to a timeline where Beerus was already dead and to skip ahead 1 year in order to quickly empower Future Zamasu with immortality. The time rings is also how Gowasu and Shin travelled to the Future timeline, and without their intervention Zamasu would've won, as they never would have fused into Vegito and thus would have been crushed.

The difference in how time rings and time machine are used is also highlighted in the story. It's mentioned how time rings can only be used by Supreme Kais and are an instrument utilized to observe future events and never to travel back into the past, as that would break time-space continuum.

I never said that. Super Saiyan Grade 2 was just Super Saiyan with bigger muscles and Grade 3 even bigger still. The point was that Dragon Ball had transformations that were original too. Dragon Ball Super does not. It's either a red or silver colour palette swap or a blue one or another blue one except darker.

Which is still not true, because a transformation can be creative despite not having a big physical change, like Super Saiyan.

There's no symbolic meaning to it, you're trying to find something deep out of something that's shallow. It can be beautiful or whatever but it is still just a colour palette swap of a colour palette swap.

There was an actual story related reason behind Goku turning Super Saiyan. Goku Black has Pink hair to sell merchandise.

Oh, now there is no symbolic meaning? I could've sworn you said there was one in your previous post. Anyway, yes, there is symbolic meaning. Aside from the fact that rose is often seen as a color of death and beauty, and so perfectly fits Black (especially when he later on gets a scythe), there is also a story behind Rosé. Super Saiyan Rosé represents Zamasu's soul becoming more and more attuned with Goku's body and allowing him to reach a level beyond Super Saiyan God; but since his is the soul of a natural-born God, he unlocks Rosé instead of Blue. So no, it's not just there to sell merchandise, there is an actual story reason for its existence. Also it's interesting how the existence of Super Saiyan Rosé was foreshadowed by Zamasu looking at the roses during his speech to Gowasu.

A plot point that boiled down to "We need Goku Black to kill off of all the Gods but he ain't stronger than a God of Destruction so let's just have it so that when he kills a Kai the Destroyer dies automatically."

A plot point that boiled down to "let's have a villain be smart enough to single out the weak Kais and exploit a flaw in the God hierarchy to achieve his plans."

Or giving Sorbet the ring as a contingency plan to take down Goku in case his plans didn't turn out right. So calculating.

Sorbet already had the ring before Freeza was resurrected.

But he is a match for him. Vegeta even told him in the movie about how he's a threat. It's not that Goku isn't worried, he's just an idiot. Frieza brought someone to Earth who could not only have killed them but killed everyone and he just lets him go.

It's bad writing and Frieza should never have even been involved in the movie but he was because he's popular.

He's equal to SSB Goku, but against SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta? He'd get destroyed. And they have fusion. And they have the Zeno Button. He's no match for them.

[Thunderbird]

This has been his role since he ended the manga back in 1995. There seems to be a misconception about Toriyama's role in the franchise now. Toriyama isn't the only writer involved with DB, he's not even the main one.

But he's still the one who comes up with the stories and makes the outlines and writes the scripts for the movies.

Yet from what he's gave us in the last 7 years

- Battle of Gods was someone else story.

- Resurrection F he got from just going to a concert and hearing a song.

- Universe 6 was a generic Tournament.

- Goku Black was a Android arc retread.

- Tournament of Power was a battle royale tournament that was dragged out forever so that Toriyama didn't have come up with anything for a while.

- Broly was a matter of "Some executive told me Broly was popular and would make money so I'm just going the cash cow route instead of doing my own thing".

Even before that his Minus one shot was panned and was worse than the old TV movie. Aside from doing a few decent designs he's awful for the franchise now.

The DB fan base for some reason likes the same thing to be constantly brought back, as proven by Broly and Super as a whole, so they're also to blame for what's going on.

At this point there's been seven years of little ideas and countless colour palette swaps that peoples standards have dropped so much that they accept it now.

They could do another movie where they bring in a canon Cooler. Introduce Super Saiyan Green and then use Ultra Instinct Gogeta to beat him at the end and people would gobble that up.

[Thunderbird]

Actually, yes, they can do that, refer to Zamasu and Hit. And better than having a bunch of one-note villains like the Z movie villains.

Zamasu didn't have that going for him. He doesn't have an interesting ability, his personality is generic and the only reason his design is good is because it's copied from another.

Hits fine, he gets a pass.

But... you just said those characters were shallow... and then Super tried to give them some personality... so why are you going after Super instead of Z, you know, the series that created those shallow villains (your word)?

Giving shallow characters a bit more depth is not creative... You should expect that of your characters to begin with. Dabura had nothing to him, they could bring him back and give him anything and he'd have more depth.

But this thread is about Dragon Ball as a whole, not just Toriyama. Also, I'd argue Toriyama was already becoming uncreative by the time of the Buu arc to be honest.

Toriyama is the aspect I've chosen to bring up. Toyotaro's Moro arc is equally as uncreative. Another character from the past who just pops up, wants Dragon Balls to restore his youth, a big fight on Namek that results in its destruction, Moro and his minions going to Earth while the Dragon Team scrubs defend it while they wait for the only two who matter etc.

The only possible bit of creativity there is what they do with this Spirit Control and I ain't holding my breath.

There really isn't much difference, aside from the fact that vs Freeza the Spirit Bomb overpowered him, whereas vs Buu the Spirit Bomb would have failed without the divine intervention of the dragon.

There's a huge difference between how it was done.

The difference in how time rings and time machine are used is also highlighted in the story.

But really offers no difference of significance because the same thing could have just been done if they had a Time Machine as well. It was just a prop to travel forward and backward in time with a couple differences.

It's just another form of time travel.

Which is still not true, because a transformation can be creative despite not having a big physical change, like Super Saiyan.

The one that you referred to as just his hair turning blonde a couple posts prior? Super Saiyan God, Blue, Rose, Rage, Evolved and Ultra Instinct all didn't have big physical changes and none of them are creative.

They are all but one a colour palette swap and one not even that.

Oh, now there is no symbolic meaning? I could've sworn you said there was one in your previous post.

With Rose? No. It's not deep, there's no story, nothing pretentious about the soul or however you want to dress it up. He had Pink hair for the same reason why Goku got Blue hair in Resurrection F, it was a different colour and it was good for selling merchandise.

The whole thing about why it turned Pink instead of Blue wasn't even explained in the anime. It was just Pink just because.

A plot point that boiled down to "let's have a villain be smart enough to single out the weak Kais and exploit a flaw in the God hierarchy to achieve his plans."

Again, you trying to find some deeper meaning into something that isn't deep. The Gods of Destruction needed to be removed from the story for it to make sense and because Goku Black and Zamasu werent at that level the whole life link thing was done out of convenience.

It was never mentioned before that and was never mentioned after that.

Sorbet already had the ring before Freeza was resurrected.

Well that doesn't matter. That Frieza came up with a contingency plan of that manner showed he was calculating already.

He's equal to SSB Goku, but against SSB Goku and SSBE Vegeta? He'd get destroyed. And they have fusion. And they have the Zeno Button. He's no match for them.

But that's now become "them". You said "him". Why would Goku press the Zeno Button for Frieza if he didn't even do that for Broly?

[SupremeKai25]

Actually, yes, they can do that, refer to Zamasu and Hit. And better than having a bunch of one-note villains like the Z movie villains.

Zamasu didn't have that going for him. He doesn't have an interesting ability, his personality is generic and the only reason his design is good is because it's copied from another.

Hits fine, he gets a pass.

1) His design is not copied from another, since he's not similar to Shin at all, and the similarities exist merely because they're the same species. As I already proved.

2) He has A TON of unique and interesting abilities, especially Fused Zamasu.

3) His personality is most certainly not generic as far as Dragon Ball villains are concerned, by virtue of him not being a generic evil monster who wants to destroy everything like Cell or Buu.

Giving shallow characters a bit more depth is not creative... You should expect that of your characters to begin with. Dabura had nothing to him, they could bring him back and give him anything and he'd have more depth.

Missing the point again. You are calling Z characters shallow and blaming Super for trying to give them a personality instead of Z for making them shallow in the first place.

Toriyama is the aspect I've chosen to bring up. Toyotaro's Moro arc is equally as uncreative. Another character from the past who just pops up, wants Dragon Balls to restore his youth, a big fight on Namek that results in its destruction, Moro and his minions going to Earth while the Dragon Team scrubs defend it while they wait for the only two who matter etc.

The only possible bit of creativity there is what they do with this Spirit Control and I ain't holding my breath.

Stories repeat core plot points all the time. That doesn't mean it's not creative. All Z arcs also repeat some plot points at times.

There's a huge difference between how it was done.

Hmm, really? Because they are both Spirit Bombs created as a last ditch effort to beat a seemingly unstoppable enemy, and they both require one of Goku's closest allies to buy time for him by distracting the enemy. The only difference is that Freeza tries to resist the bomb but gets overpowered, while Buu manages to fire it back at Goku before he got his strength restored with the third wish.

But really offers no difference of significance because the same thing could have just been done if they had a Time Machine as well. It was just a prop to travel forward and backward in time with a couple differences.

It's just another form of time travel.

No, the story would not have been the same without time rings, because there is no way Zamasu could have enacted his plan with a time machine, as obviously the only two time machines in the multiverse were both on Earth. There was also a time machine in U12, but he only got his hands on it after he killed the Supreme Kai of that universe. So way after he started his project.

The one that you referred to as just his hair turning blonde a couple posts prior? Super Saiyan God, Blue, Rose, Rage, Evolved and Ultra Instinct all didn't have big physical changes and none of them are creative.

They are all but one a colour palette swap and one not even that.

Yes, because it is just his hair turned yellow. But unlike you, I never claimed that makes it not creative, because a transformation can be creative while having a simple and grounded design.

I already explained how Rosé is creative. If you don't want to listen, that's on you.

With Rose? No. It's not deep, there's no story, nothing pretentious about the soul or however you want to dress it up. He had Pink hair for the same reason why Goku got Blue hair in Resurrection F, it was a different colour and it was good for selling merchandise.

The whole thing about why it turned Pink instead of Blue wasn't even explained in the anime. It was just Pink just because.

It is explained how Rosé works and how Black got it. It's not the writers' fault if you weren't paying attention.

It was rose "just because", yes, just like how Super Saiyan was yellow just because. That point is moot.

Again, you trying to find some deeper meaning into something that isn't deep.

Or maybe it is deep and you just refuse to see it?

Ah no, you couldn't possibly be superficial. It's obviously the story that is completely shallow and trash!

The Gods of Destruction needed to be removed from the story for it to make sense and because Goku Black and Zamasu werent at that level the whole life link thing was done out of convenience.

It was never mentioned before that and was never mentioned after that.

There's no need to mention it if it's not relevant to the plot, like literally any plot point in fiction. If a writer reveals a certain plot point it's because it's essential to the ongoing plot. The life link actually makes sense because it ensures that Destroyers and Kais have to work together to be efficient, or they can easily be singled out and destroyed. Like Zamasu proved.

Well that doesn't matter. That Frieza came up with a contingency plan of that manner showed he was calculating already.

There is literally no indication that Freeza even knew Sorbet was hiding behind Goku or had a ring that fires laser.

But that's now become "them". You said "him". Why would Goku press the Zeno Button for Frieza if he didn't even do that for Broly?

And it's still "him", because if Goku managed to reawaken Ultra Instinct then he'd mop the floor with Golden Freeza.

Also he didn't use the Zeno button because he wanted to use fusion instead. Just because he has that button doesn't mean he'll automatically use it to win, especially since he's Goku, he wants to have a good battle. That doesn't change the fact that he would be willing to use it if there really was no other way and the situation was critical.

[Block88]

Of course it is most of it is just shit we’ve seen in z but with a different flare
But can’t blame em Fans show they’ll watch and eat whatever shit Toei,AT,Toyo will throw at them

[ABED]

Of course it is most of it is just shit we’ve seen in z but with a different flare
But can’t blame em Fans show they’ll watch and eat whatever shit Toei,AT,Toyo will throw at them

It costs practically nothing to watch it. Enjoying it is another matter.

[Matches Malone]

But he's still the one who comes up with the stories and makes the outlines and writes the scripts for the movies.

I know that, I'm just saying he's not the only one in charge. That's not to say he'd do much better alone, as seen in DB Minus, but fans need to understand that this isn't like the old days where he was in a room alone coming up with stories because he had something to say. DB now is mostly a popularity franchise, where things are done to satisfy specific groups of fans, not be the voice of an author who has a story to share with the rest of the world.

They could do another movie where they bring in a canon Cooler. Introduce Super Saiyan Green and then use Ultra Instinct Gogeta to beat him at the end and people would gobble that up.

These 3 will definitely happen. Whether or not they happen all at once remains to be seen.

[Metalwario64]

Isn't Broly enough of a green Super Saiyan?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Isn't Broly enough of a green Super Saiyan?

No but his kids might be

[WittyUsername]

I would say that bringing in Cooler would seem redundant after Frost, but we did have Broly after Kale, so whatever.

[Thunderbird]

I would say that bringing in Cooler would seem redundant after Frost, but we did have Broly after Kale, so whatever.

Cooler is the next most popular old Z movie villain after Broly and really the only one who would have any potential.

They'll either bring him back or Cell.

[TheNingen]

*snip*

I've been watching this back and forth for a while and I feel the need to break my silence on it. You have been called out by various users for your clear lack of understanding when it comes to modern Dragon Ball. So either you are being intellectually dishonest, or you are being naive for the sake of trying to dominate a debate while not wanting to listen. And any valid points thrown your way, you always dismiss by going "no u"

Your arguments about surface level goings on in regards to transformations are the equivalent of a person arguing that a bagel and a doughnut are the same thing because they're both spherical pastries while ignoring that they're obviously different in terms of taste and execution. You are purposely looking at things from a surface level without bothering to even see the differences in theme, versatility, and everything else. And you're showing it's fruitless to debate you because you are so close minded that you don't care about any arguments other than your own.

That being said....I'll add my own points even though they're going to be dismissed by you.

Vegeta's Super Saiyan design according to you should be bad because it's just a palette swap of regular base Vegeta. Nothing changes except his hair color.

You say the new forms are only for marketing purposes. You're being ignorant and not looking at the story behind the forms and judging it from an out of universe reason to dismiss and low ball their significance. By your own logic, Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation is bad. Story be damned, or the reason why and how he attains it, because the ONLY reason it exists and has the appearance it does is because Toriyama was tired of always inking in Goku's hair. And in the manga, white would be far more easier for him to do.

Super Saiyan God is NOT a palette swap. He becomes skinnier, his hair becomes spikier, his hair changes to red (unlike Kaioken which doesn't actually change his hair color), and he becomes far more defensive and nimble as seen in a lot of his fight with Beerus and with Broly. The only time he goes more on the offensive is during the ToP, which I credit to Toei not fully understanding the usage of the form. Story wise it is a means to give Goku an even higher realm to aim at, and gives us a bit of insight into his character with not liking something being given to him, and him putting his hubris and ego on the side to defend the earth.

Rose is Pink Super Saiyan Goku. Sure. But its usage and versatility in ki based techniques being something we've never seen in application or usage (outside of Vegetto's Ki Sword). And we see the difference between a God ki and a simple mortal using the Ki of a God. There are story purposes to the form. The form DOES have subtextual meaning under the surface.

You've also been called out on your clear bias when it comes to disliking modern Dragon Ball. It's fine to dislike it. It is NOT fine to be intellectually dishonest in your talking points and dismissive of valid points that come your way and debunk your argument and act like you're privy to the meaning and subtext of transformations or characters when you've expressed a clear lack of regard or care for any of it. How can someone have an honest debate with you when you've already made it clear you lack any interest in wanting to understand or analyze it and just seem more enthusiastic to dismiss it?

And lastly, as for your comment of "The forms are for marketing purpose"...Yeah. No shit. Most things are done with marketing in mind. Most stories are done and sold for the sake of trying to market them and earn money off them. That's just reality. Do you think the CEOs at Disney are going "Let's release a live action remake of Cinderella for the purposes of art. Profits be damned. We just really want people to see this story."

Just because something is released or done with marketing purposes in mind, doesn't mean no care or effort is put into it. Even with the CEOs of a company being more profit focused. I highly dislike most of the Marvel movies, and they were shoved out by Disney to rake in heaps of cash, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing there to them and that's all they are at a surface level. There's more to some of the movies than just that subtext of wanting money.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

More onto TheNingen brilliant post, it seems Thunderbird purposely ignoring instances during the original run when editors would tell Toriyama to change things that they didn't like or think could have marketing ie Androids being human looking and so worked Cell into the story. Toriyama got the the suggestion of an evil Goku and Broly but he said himself he felt there was something he could do with the idea of Broly and that's exactly what he did! Hell he didn't even make FP Broly that was all on Shintani and Toriyama just gave his blessing saying he didn't want him too buff. It amazes me that someone thinks Toriyama is only bowing down to corporate overloads... Even with the idea of Kale he came up with Caulifla as a pair wasn't like he was like yeah whatever.

Also the massive misconception that everything is done to "sell toys"... give me strength if anyone knows what they are actually talking about instead of talking out their ass knows basically 80% of DBS was left unmarketed including the likes of Kale. Hell it's 2020 and SSGSS is still the mascot form of modern DB, it took until the end of DBS for Goku to get a new form... and it wasn't even a permanent one! If it was all about the money than Goku would have had a new form every f**king arc.

[Thunderbird]

See once again you're all missing the point. Bringing up things that Z did which were similar to excuse Supers faults, even though I said that while Z did have those faults it made up with it by having new original ideas too. Super has no original ideas of any worth.

Some of the excuses being made for Supers lack of unoriginality are depressing timeless because it just shows how peoples expectations have fallen over time.

"Super Saiyan God is NOT a palette swap. He becomes skinnier, his hair becomes spikier, his hair changes to red"

So because the arms are drawn a little bit narrower that somehow excuses that the first transformation in almost 20 years in a theatrical movie was just base Goku with red hair.

Of which then the next movie then just took Super Saiyan Goku and just made it blue and then took Frieza and made him gold. "Oh but it's not a palette colour swap because Golden Frieza is slightly taller and his abdomen is embedded". No it's a colour palette swap.

Then the first actual new antagonist was yet another Goku palette colour swap, both his costume and his hair. "Oh but he's got a energy sword now" doesn't stop the character from still being a colour palette swap.

Super Saiyan Blue Evolved is another colour palette swap. Ultra Instinct is another colour palette swap. "Oh but his hair is only slightly spiky" still makes it a colour palette swap.

Dragon Ball Super has colour palette transformations. Completely unoriginal storylines, of the six arcs, two are repeats of the movies, two are more Tournaments, one is a Android saga copy and the other a Resurrection F movie copy. They are unable to create new popular characters and so have to keep bringing in old characters, first it was Frieza, then Trunks, then Vegito, then Android 17, then Broly and then Gogeta along with even characters like the Pilaf Gang, Shin and Kibito and now the Grand Supreme Kai.

They even had to bring back Kaioken.

Two high budget theatrical movies in a row written by Toriyama where he's had to bring in an old character because he can't even think of a new one.

Even Dragon Ball Heroes, comes up with more original ideas than the main series now and even that has had to bring back Dabura and Bardock and constantly hark on that whole Time Patrol aspect that was used in Dragon Ball Online, then again in Xenoverse and then again with Heroes.

It's been so uncreative for that many years that fans have become numb to it now.

[ABED]

Why do you keep pointing at Zamasu's appearance as sign of a lack of originality? He's a Kaioshin, so of course he looks like a member of his race. Beyond appearance, they are nothing alike.

Some of the excuses being made for Supers lack of unoriginality are depressing timeless because it just shows how peoples expectations have fallen over time.

Good thing you're above it all. The arrogance of this statement is not surprising. Seriously, DB is a fun show, but lets not forget it's a show that has smiley faced poop as a gag.

When I point out that previous arcs are broadly the same, you say the specifics are different, but when someone uses your same argument all of a sudden the little differences are meaningless.

[Thunderbird]

Toriyama got the the suggestion of an evil Goku and Broly but he said himself he felt there was something he could do with the idea of Broly and that's exactly what he did!

Which was what exactly?

His backstory was mostly the same, born with a high power level, sent away, dad wants revenge on the Saiyans, he fights Goku and Vegeta, is super strong, dad dies. All he did was scream and shout for the last 40 minutes of the film.

The only thing that they did change was that they made him soft by having friends... and all that's gonna result in is Broly becoming some ally who will be used as a measuring stick to make other villains look more impressive which is not new because that's been done for 30 years.

He had more personality before in the original one.

If it was all about the money than Goku would have had a new form every f**king arc.

He practically has.

Beerus - Super Saiyan God
Golden Frieza - Super Saiyan Blue
Universe 6 - Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken
Future Trunks - Super Saiyan Vegito
Tournament of Power - Ultra Instinct Omen and Ultra Instinct
Broly - Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta

Yes, the fusions count, it is part of Goku.

[Thunderbird]

Why do you keep pointing at Zamasu's appearance as sign of a lack of originality?

Because it's a lack of an original design. It's Shin except he's tall and green.

"He's a Kaioshin"

Isn't an excuse. Did the South Supreme Kai look like Shin? Did Grand Supreme Kai look like Shin? No. Did King Kai look like South Kai or Grand Kai? No. Does Yamcha look like Krillin? No.

So not only do Kaioshin not have to look a like but it didn't have to he a Kaioshin at all. It could have been a completely new race. It didn't need to be a colour palette swapped Goku and a tall green Shin. It could have been anything completely original.

When I point out that previous arcs are broadly the same, you say the specifics are different, but when someone uses your same argument all of a sudden the little differences are meaningless.

Because they aren't broadly the same. The Saiyan arc was nothing like the Frieza arc which was nothing like the Android arc or going back anything like the Fortuneteller Baba arc which was nothing like the Red Ribbon arc.

Whereas right now the Moro arc is a complete retread of bits and pieces of other arcs with no real originality to it whatsoever. Them fighting Moro on Namek, it blowing up, Vegeta going to train on Yadrat, then being a no show when Moro shows up on Earth and the weaker ones are freaking out....is exactly what happened with them fighting Frieza on Namek, it blowing up, Goku going to Yadrat, then being a no show when Frieza shows up on Earth and the weaker ones freaking out.

What actually would have been creative would be if Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu had teamed together to actually beat a character. But no Goku shows up to the save the day by one shotting that character, which has again happened before with Recoome. It even happened in the Dragon Ball Heroes anime just last year.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Because it's a lack of an original design. It's Shin except he's tall and green.

"He's a Kaioshin"

Isn't an excuse. Did the South Supreme Kai look like Shin? Did Grand Supreme Kai look like Shin? No. Did King Kai look like South Kai or Grand Kai? No. Does Yamcha look like Krillin? No.

So not only do Kaioshin not have to look a like but it didn't have to he a Kaioshin at all. It could have been a completely new race. It didn't need to be a colour palette swapped Goku and a tall green Shin. It could have been anything completely original.

Because it's a Tullece/Bardock situation. The idea behind Zamasu is "what if the Kaioshin went rogue" so he's modeled to look like the one we're most familiar with. I don't get why this is such a point of contention.

[Thunderbird]

Dragon Ball Z had three main villains, Frieza, Cell who was a being from the future who was obsessed with Goku and had a physical connection with him and then Buu a being from millions of years ago who was stopped after Grand Supreme Kai made a self sacrifice.

There was also Broly as a movie villain.

Dragon Ball Super had three main villains, Frieza, Zamasu who was a being from the future who was obsessed with Goku and had physical connection with him and then Moro a being from millions of years ago who was stopped after Grand Supreme Kai made a self sacrifice.

There was also Broly as a movie villain.

How very creative of them.

Because it's a Tullece/Bardock situation. The idea behind Zamasu is "what if the Kaioshin went rogue" so he's modeled to look like the one we're most familiar with. I don't get why this is such a point of contention.

Which is fair enough but doesn't excuse the similar design or the reworked plot from the Android saga.

[JulieYBM]

Isn't Broly enough of a green Super Saiyan?

We need his and Cheelai's green-skinned children to turn into green-haired Super Saiyans. Don't deny me this, Metalwario64!!!

Spoiler:

From Super Lychee Juice (ShindoL)

More green, more green than ever before!!! MUWAHAHAHAHA!!!!oneone1eleven