Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:17 pm

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 13 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

We've comfortably crossed the point of being a third of the way into OG DB. My my, how the time has flown. :)
Hope you're all keeping safe and healthy.
I think I actually have the virus, but thankfully the symptoms are very minor for me. One or two people I know aren't quite so lucky, though again, thankfully they seem to be doing okay, despite feeling awful.
Stay inside, friends. Socially distance. And above all, be kind to one another. :)
On a lighter note, we're about half-way to the next movie. We'll be watching it in early May, just after the Baba storyline, during the

Previous thread: Week 12 (DB 51-55)
Next thread: Week 14 (DB 61-65)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 56 - Uhohōi! Arale Boards the Cloud
Dub title: Strange Visitor / There's A Stranger In Town!
Originally aired 25th of March 1987

Episode director: Kazuhisa Takenouchi
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa


Arale, the girl Goku meets in Penguin Village, is a mysterious young girl who can run at super speed, and even ride the Kinto-Un. The village’s police force, consisting of Taro and the others, attempt to capture Blue of the Red Ribbon Army, but they can’t scratch him! The Dragan Radar is malfunctioning, and Goku cannot pinpoint the position of the Dragon Balls. At a loss, Goku takes Arale’s advice and visits Dr. Senbe, who just might be able to fix the Dragon Radar!!

Anime-only/filler content: The scene where Penguin Village residents try to sit on the Nimbus, the scene with Blue and Obotchaman.

Episode 57 - Showdown! Arale vs Blue
Dub title: Arale vs. Blue / Arale vs. General Blue
Originally aired 8th of April 1987

Episode director: Minoru Okazaki
Animation supervisor: Minoru Maeda


Dr. Senbe’s eldest son Turbo-kun fixes the Dragon Radar. Blue then appears, takes Arale as a hostage, and steals the Dragon Radar, using his physic powers to immobilize Goku!! At this time, Arale uses amazing power to send Blue flying!! However, even though the Dragon Balls are returned, the Dragon Radar was sent flying along with Blue. Goku receives a newly made Dragon Radar from Turbo, and leaves Penguin Village behind.

Anime-only/filler content: Everything involving King Nokichan the alien, the police and the supposed Red Ribbon Army invasion, Goku and Arale searching Noramaki's house.

Episode 58 - The Haunted Karin Holy Land
Dub title: The Land of Korin / The Holy Land Of Korin
Originally aired 15th of April 1987

Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


A volcanic eruption sends the Four-Star Ball flying into the Karin Holy Land, a place protected by Bora and his son Upa. Bora uses his tremendous power to drive back Captain Yellow’s Red Ribbon Army troop, who came in pursuit of the Dragon Ball! However, Yellow takes Upa hostage and demands the Dragon Ball. But Goku happens to pass by, defeats Yellow in a single blow, and saves Upa!! Meanwhile at Red Ribbon Army Headquarters, the world’s greatest assassin Tao Pai-pai shows up, having been summoned by Commander Red!!

Anime-only/filler content: Blue on a camel, Commander Red playing pool, everything involving Captain Yellow before Goku arrives at their confrontation.

Episode 59 - He’s Here! The World’s Greatest Hitman, “Tao Pai-pai”
Dub title: The Notorious Mercenary / The Terrifying Tao Pai-Pai!
Originally aired 22nd of April 1987

Episode director: Kazuhisa Takenouchi
Animation supervisor: Katsumi Aoshima


After finally managing to return to Red Ribbon Army Headquarters, Blue is killed by a single blow from Tao Pai-pai’s tongue. Tao Pai-pai then sets off for the Karin Holy Land to eliminate Goku! Meanwhile, Goku obtains his heart’s desire, the Four-Star Ball. He also hears the legend of the Super Holy Water, water received from a sage who lives at the top of Karin Tower, and that if drunk will multiply one’s power many times over. Tao Pai-pai then shows up. Bora stands to face him, but before Tao Pai-pai’s fearsome power he is killed in the blink of an eye!! Goku challenges Tao Pai-pai, but?!

Anime-only/filler content: General Blue being sassy to the guarding inside RRA HQ, the expanded visual depiction of the legend of Karin's Tower.

Episode 60 - The Match!! Kamehameha vs Dodonpa
Dub title: Tao Attacks! / Facing The Dodon Wave!
Originally aired 29th of April 1987

Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Shindo


Goku is completely helpless before the might of Tao Pai-pai, who is unaffected by even the Kamehameha. Goku is felled after taking a direct hit from Tao Pai-pai’s sure-to-kill Dodonpa! Tao Pai-pai steals the Dragon Balls, and heads to a town to get new clothes to replace his tattered ones. However, Goku survived!! The Four-Star Ball that he had on his breast protected him!! After resolving to use the Dragon Balls to restore Bora to life, Goku climbs Karin Tower in order to become stronger than Tao Pai-pai. However, no matter how far he climbs, he is still unable to see the top.

Anime-only/filler content: An extended fighting sequence between the two times Goku is kicked into Karin's Tower, everything involving Tao getting new clothes that isn't him at the tailor's.

-

Interesting trivia:
  • Whether Arale was able to sit on the Nimbus because she's a robot or not is never explored, similar to Goku carrying his futon and food on it in Episode 14.
  • The logistical implications of including Penguin Village has been quite profound, including Dr. Slump depicting its own version of God (who in Dragon Ball had not been concieved yet).
  • Arale wears a T-Shirt in these episodes, while in her manga/anime she wears denim overalls.
  • General Blue's appearance may be an allusion to Nazi Germany's belief in the idea of a superior Aryan race, with Blue's homosexuality and supernatural abilities being an intentional contrast.
  • Arale and Penguin Village would not be seen on Japanese TV again until November 26th 1997, when the first episode of the second Dr. Slump anime would air one week after GT ended. They wouldn't appear in a Dragon Ball anime again until Episode 69 of Dragon Ball Super on December 4th, 2016, though characters from Dragon Ball would appear again in the 1997 Slump series.
  • Because the anime adds an extra scene where some Penguin Village residents try to sit on the Nimbus, the scene where Arale tells Goku about the Doc is in a completely different location. In the manga this scene is on the cliff where Blue crashed.
  • Sourman's theme seems to be a deliberate homage to John Williams' Superman theme.
  • The English dubs censor Blue's attraction to Obotchaman entirely, changing the scene to appear to refer to Blue having a long-lost brother.
    • The European Spanish dub mostly kept this scene intact, but changed Obotchaman to be referred to as female in dialogue.
  • Similar to their script for Paozu Village having a one-off "we've waited for a hero to do it" subplot added, the Funimation dub adds this idea to the legend of climbing Karin's Tower.
  • Funimation introduces a dub error in episode 58; the narrator claims Goku attained four Dragon Balls, rather than three.
  • The mini-arc involving Tao Pai-Pai establishes several tropes that will become incredibly common in the future of Dragon Ball:
    • A previously unknown, incredibly strong enemy appears who vastly outshines the previous villain.
    • The enemy being able to use ki beam attacks comparable to the Kamehameha.
    • Goku being initially trounced by the villain, requiring...
    • Goku leaving to train and power up his strength.
    • Goku's friends having to nervously wait and/or stall for time until Goku returns.
    • Goku's opponent being incredibly arrogant over the roles being reversed, to the point that they engage in tactical suicide.
    • Tao's pleas for mercy are also similar to Frieza pleading Goku for help at the end of their fight.
Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Filler breakdowns and Dragon Ball provided, and trivia co-written, by KBABZ.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:17 pm

  • Whether Arale was able to sit on the Nimbus because she's a robot or not is never explored, similar to Goku carrying his futon and food on it in Episode 14.
I'm like 99.999999 percent sure she's able to sit on Kinto un because she's pure of heart. That appears to be the implication.
[*]The English dubs censor Blue's attraction to Obotchaman entirely, changing the scene to appear to refer to Blue having a long-lost brother.
And although it's super obvious in the animation that Blue has a crush on Obotchaman I will say it's one of the Funimation's dub few understandable changes for content. And Sonny Straits delivery of "No, your brother is never coming back" was pretty funny. Actually it's funny that this joke to avoid pedophilia/homosexuality gave Blue a little more character than effeminate homosexual germophobe Nazi.
  • The European Spanish dub mostly kept this scene intact, but changed Obotchaman to be referred to as female in dialogue.
Pedophilia is okay as long as its heterosexual. The European Spanish dub was handled by the same company that handled the Sailor Moon S and SuperS dub in US and Canada wasn't it? Lesbians are bad unless they're kissing cousins.
[*]The mini-arc involving Tao Pai-Pai establishes several tropes that will become incredibly common in the future of Dragon Ball:
Another interesting trivia. Tao Pei Pei's design is clearly based on the villain Shen Kuan from the Jackie Chan martial arts flick "Snake in The Eagle Shadow"

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm
I'm like 99.999999 percent sure she's able to sit on Kinto un because she's pure of heart. That appears to be the implication.
Sure.
Though allegedly #16 was never revived because, as a cyborg, he wasn't revived by the dragon. (I forget where this idea came from, but IIRC it's one of the stupid Daizenshuu postscript lore additions) So it's not clear if robots count as people or objects in the Dragon Ball world.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm
And although it's super obvious in the animation that Blue has a crush on Obotchaman I will say it's one of the Funimation's dub few understandable changes for content. And Sonny Straits delivery of "No, your brother is never coming back" was pretty funny. Actually it's funny that this joke to avoid pedophilia/homosexuality gave Blue a little more character than effeminate homosexual germophobe Nazi.
Yeah.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm
Pedophilia is okay as long as its heterosexual. The European Spanish dub was handled by the same company that handled the Sailor Moon S and SuperS dub in US and Canada wasn't it? Lesbians are bad unless they're kissing cousins.
Yep.

Pedophilia and incest? Sure, whatever, fine.
Homosexuality? NO NO NO NO--

... Completely ridiculous attitude.

I guess this stuff has never really been about any sensible ideas of actual morality, though, it's 100% about what they think parents will complain about.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:47 pm
[*]The mini-arc involving Tao Pai-Pai establishes several tropes that will become incredibly common in the future of Dragon Ball:
Another interesting trivia. Tao Pei Pei's design is clearly based on the villain Shen Kuan from the Jackie Chan martial arts flick "Snake in The Eagle Shadow"
Oh really?

Wow. I never knew that! That's neat. :)
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:08 pm

Yeah, my point with Arale is that, as a robot, is she considered an object or a soul? Personally I think she counts as a soul and thus is Pure of Heart to ride the Nimbus, and there's a very clear line between the likes of her, #8 and #16 and robots like the one who flew Goku to Jingle Village.

Also I COMPLETELY forgot about Gatchan 1 and 2! I've never seen/read Dr. Slump, are they robots too??

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:07 pm

I think Arale can ride Kinto-un cuz she's pure of heart, and that's it.

I don't think that means she has a soul or is a living, breathing person though. Although if she were "killed", I believe Shen Long could resurrect her.

I think Toriyama just didn't care enough about #16 to bother either way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:14 am

To be clear what Shen Long declares living and thus can be revived and what the Kinto Un deems alive and thus needs to be judged on purity don’t necessarily have to correlate. The scene was framed as “oh of course Arale can ride it she’s innocent and pure of heart”

16 probably wasn’t revived otherwise he would be among the people giving Son Goku their energy to defeat Boo.

We do have Shen Long reviving #8 in Path to Ultimate Power but 1. Non-canon movie 2. The wish was to revive him specifically 3. I’m pretty sure the anime suggested he was a human who died and the Red Ribbon Army brought him back from the dead with cybernetics so he technically counts as living?

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:39 am

These episodes introduce Bora and Upa, who lead a unique life in the land of Karin. I like how their way of living is displayed as being unusual to outsiders, but still noble.

I like how Bora doesn't hesitate to kill Colonel Yellow's men, he just does what he does and don't apologize for it. It's his way of life again, and he's 100% committed.

I also like how Goku seemingly picks up on the connection between Bora and Upa and their way of life. That scene when he stops in the middle of eating and watches them both was a nice touch. I guess it was also supposed to be Goku relating their relationship to his own with his Grandfather.

The scene where Goku decides to resurrect Bora with the Dragon Balls was done really well, with the Gohan factor again significant. It's also important because it's the first time in the series that Goku is doing something selfless and for the greater good. I think at that moment Goku and the audience realize the true potential of the Dragon Balls and the power they wield. It helps that there is no dialogue and the score is playing in the background.

Speaking of the music, Bora and Upa get that theme track which I think is fitting. I know many people may not like the BOING! on the end but I don't think it's too bad. The way I see it, it's less of a wacky BOING! and more of a BOING! that says, "Yep, this is our way of life, out here in the middle of nowhere, take it or leave it." Although maybe it would have worked better if they had done two versions, one with and without the BOING!, to be played at different moments.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:45 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:39 am
I also like how Goku seemingly picks up on the connection between Bora and Upa and their way of life. That scene when he stops in the middle of eating and watches them both was a nice touch. I guess it was also supposed to be Goku relating their relationship to his own with his Grandfather.

The scene where Goku decides to resurrect Bora with the Dragon Balls was done really well, with the Gohan factor again significant. It's also important because it's the first time in the series that Goku is doing something selfless and for the greater good. I think at that moment Goku and the audience realize the true potential of the Dragon Balls and the power they wield. It helps that there is no dialogue and the score is playing in the background.

Speaking of the music, Bora and Upa get that theme track which I think is fitting. I know many people may not like the BOING! on the end but I don't think it's too bad. The way I see it, it's less of a wacky BOING! and more of a BOING! that says, "Yep, this is our way of life, out here in the middle of nowhere, take it or leave it." Although maybe it would have worked better if they had done two versions, one with and without the BOING!, to be played at different moments.
The "sitting" scene for me is important because it shows that Goku is connecting with these two without using any dialogue or spoken words, just camera cuts and observation. I can see why Goku would feel that way: these two people are VERY similar to how he and Gohan lived; in a way, Goku resurrecting Bora is similar to how Gohan died, making it more meaningful later when Upa brings this very topic up, that Goku is bringing back Bora over Gohan.

As for the music, the boing is odd, but for me it's that this it's a very involved music piece with lots of emotion behind it. It works for Bora's death, but I feel the anime uses it three times too many. A mellower variant would have gone a long way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:46 am

Upa’s theme is one of my favorite pieces in Dragon Ball so I don’t mind its excessive use here especially since it all but disappears after the Baba arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:50 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:46 am
Upa’s theme is one of my favorite pieces in Dragon Ball so I don’t mind its excessive use here especially since it all but disappears after the Baba arc.
Did they ever re-use it for the Saiyan Arc filler?

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:03 am

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:50 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:46 am
Upa’s theme is one of my favorite pieces in Dragon Ball so I don’t mind its excessive use here especially since it all but disappears after the Baba arc.
Did they ever re-use it for the Saiyan Arc filler?
I feel like they used it when the Arlian husband and wife reunited before Vegeta blew up the planet but I’m not entirely sure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:19 pm

I agree that the Bora and Upa stuff is nice, though I don't have anything particularly insightful to add. :lol:

Anyway...
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:14 am
16 probably wasn’t revived otherwise he would be among the people giving Son Goku their energy to defeat Boo.
There are plenty of people who we don't see give energy to Goku to defeat Boo, that doesn't mean they weren't there. Lunch wasn't there in the manga, for instance. In the anime... I haven't seen that episode in ages, but I'm sure there are people who were left out but who one could imagine most likely would've donated energy. (Maybe #8 and the rest of Jingle Village?)
Personally, whatever the Daizenshuus say, I think it's bullshit for the dragon to have not revived #16. To me, the "#16 wasn't revived" thing is very much like J.K. Rowling saying whatever shit she's said this week about Harry Potter that wasn't actually in the books or the movies...

I like to think #16's still out there, watching his birds, living peacefully somewhere, enjoying life.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:14 am
We do have Shen Long reviving #8 in Path to Ultimate Power but 1. Non-canon movie 2. The wish was to revive him specifically 3. I’m pretty sure the anime suggested he was a human who died and the Red Ribbon Army brought him back from the dead with cybernetics so he technically counts as living?
1. Yes, it is an alternate telling that deviates from the main storyline.
2. Why would a wish to bring back him specifically be different from a wish to bring back everybody?
3. #8 was suggested to indeed be a human who was revived with cybernetics... But only in the original telling. Possibly just the anime, anyway? I don't know if that was in the manga. Either way, the original run is distinct from the 10th anniversary movie, so I wouldn't put much stock in this factoring in.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:29 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:19 pm
I haven't seen that episode in ages, but I'm sure there are people who were left out but who one could imagine most likely would've donated energy. (Maybe #8 and the rest of Jingle Village?)
#8 and Suno are seen giving their energy in the anime version, even TFC!
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:19 pm
2. Why would a wish to bring back him specifically be different from a wish to bring back everybody?
I agree with this. To me this is like saying Shenron can't restore a destroyed building because it's inanimate, which is pretty ridiculous to think about.
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:19 pm
3. #8 was suggested to indeed be a human who was revived with cybernetics... But only in the original telling. Possibly just the anime, anyway? I don't know if that was in the manga. Either way, the original run is distinct from the 10th anniversary movie, so I wouldn't put much stock in this factoring in.
I don't recall this particular factoid at all, and while I am a student of the Funimation dub, it isn't anywhere in ViZ's translation either. This sounds like it could be a video game thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:43 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:29 pm
#8 and Suno are seen giving their energy in the anime version, even TFC!
lol. I guess that goes to show I really am in need of this rewatch. My memory of the ending of Z is rather poor.
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:29 pm
I don't recall this particular factoid at all, and while I am a student of the Funimation dub, it isn't anywhere in ViZ's translation either. This sounds like it could be a video game thing.
No, I watched those episodes subbed just recently. White says something to the tune of "You were brought back to life by a scientist under my order!"
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm

I went back and checked as I couldn't remember the exact dialog only that it was either Murasaki or General White

General White in episode 39
"Who brought you back to this world as a cyborg after you had died once before?"

For the record Funimation dub's equivalent dialog

"Who brought you to life, tell me?"

As per usual with the Funimation dub of OG Dragon Ball the dialog isn't inaccurate but some of the nuance is lost in translation.
Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:19 pm

2. Why would a wish to bring back him specifically be different from a wish to bring back everybody?
Because if the wish is "bring back everybody killed by Cell" Shen Long might interpret it as "bring back anyone who is a living human being back to life" but if the wish specifies "Bring back Cyborg 8" then it really doesn't matter if Shen Long interprets Cyborg 8 as a human life or not the wish is to bring back Cyborg 8 no different than asking Shen Long to restore a building.

It's not Shen Long COULDN'T bring Cyborg 16 back to life it's that he may have been excluded from the wish to bring everyone back to life depending on Shen Long interpreted such a wish.

3. #8 was suggested to indeed be a human who was revived with cybernetics... But only in the original telling. Possibly just the anime, anyway? I don't know if that was in the manga. Either way, the original run is distinct from the 10th anniversary movie, so I wouldn't put much stock in this factoring in.
I think your argument that lot of characters weren't in the actual manga for the "Give Goku your energy for the Genki dama" scene was sufficient in showing how my argument was insufficient :P. For some reason I thought Lunch, Suno, and Cyborg 8's scenes were in the manga and not anime exclusive.

Still, you can make the argument Toei has interpreted Cyborg 16 as unrevived but that doesn't mean Toriyama has said anything one way or the other and Toei tends to make a lot of errors. Almost as often as Funimation at times.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:15 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
Because if the wish is "bring back everybody killed by Cell" Shen Long might interpret it as "bring back anyone who is a living human being back to life" but if the wish specifies "Bring back Cyborg 8" then it really doesn't matter if Shen Long interprets Cyborg 8 as a human life or not the wish is to bring back Cyborg 8 no different than asking Shen Long to restore a building.

It's not Shen Long COULDN'T bring Cyborg 16 back to life it's that he may have been excluded from the wish to bring everyone back to life depending on Shen Long interpreted such a wish.
Fair enough...

However, to me, this seems more like a justification for a decision, rather than a reasoning behind a logical consequence.
Don't get me wrong, it's a well-argued point, but I don't think Toriyama or Toei would think in such specific terms when just coming up with the story; it feels more like a "Toei and/or Toriyama forgot about this guy, so here's a retroactive explanation for why he doesn't show up" than a "This is what Toriyama was thinking when he specifically chose to stop bringing up #16."
Just my two cents.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
I think your argument that lot of characters weren't in the actual manga for the "Give Goku your energy for the Genki dama" scene was sufficient in showing how my argument was insufficient :P. For some reason I thought Lunch, Suno, and Cyborg 8's scenes were in the manga and not anime exclusive.
In fairness, anecdoes go around that Toriyama originally planned the chapter to have Lunch show up, but he replaced her with #17... But didn't change the dialogue to fit #17...

Though I've never actually seen any evidence regarding this, so it might just be hearsay.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
Still, you can make the argument Toei has interpreted Cyborg 16 as unrevived but that doesn't mean Toriyama has said anything one way or the other and Toei tends to make a lot of errors. Almost as often as Funimation at times.
Indeed.

Toei dun goof'd in regards to Vegeta and Nappa changing colour schemes after five or six episodes, they dun goof'd in randomly changing/dropping a lot of details from the first episode (KBABZ makes a point of the fact Toei cut Bulma explaining that she found the information on the Dragon Balls in a book in an attic, along with the first ball, then went on to find the second ball after a few weeks of searching)...
Toei's adaptation of the manga wasn't always great. I wouldn't directly compare them to Funimation, because Funimation consistently, radically changed the tone, consistently removed all the mysticism, etc. etc., but certainly Toei did screw a lot of things up. So if someone watches the Funi dub, they're ending up watching a bastardisation of a messy adaptation of Toriyama's work... "Purest DBZ experience possible" indeed, Mr Schemmel...! :lol:
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:15 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
For some reason I thought Lunch, Suno, and Cyborg 8's scenes were in the manga and not anime exclusive.
Both Sno and #8 were in the manga for the Genki Dama, but Lunch is anime-only.

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:15 pm
In fairness, anecdoes go around that Toriyama originally planned the chapter to have Lunch show up, but he replaced her with #17... But didn't change the dialogue to fit #17...

Though I've never actually seen any evidence regarding this, so it might just be hearsay.

It's from an interview with Toriyama in Daizenshuu 7:
When #17 appeared near the end of the series, he was actually Lunch in the draft.
There's a section on Lunch in the Kanzenshuu Rumor Guide that discusses this: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/characters/

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 pm

Thanks MyVisionity

Still you can interpret 16’s absence in that scene as either Toriyama forgot about him or Shen Long didn’t revive him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:29 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 pm
Thanks MyVisionity

Still you can interpret 16’s absence in that scene as either Toriyama forgot about him or Shen Long didn’t revive him.
I wouldn't put it past that Toriyama may have possibly forgotten about No. 16 in a similar fashion to what had happened with Lunch in the manga especially seeing as how she was inserted into those bits of Saiyan arc filler material involving Tenshinhan and Chaozu by the anime staff and the Genki Dama bit in the Buu arc to address that whereas otherwise she'd been largely absent after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in terms of personal appearances in the series proper.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 13 - DB episodes 56-60 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by KBABZ » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:47 pm

I'd imagine Toriyama had to be selective about which characters he showed at the end due to deadline and page count pressures. Lunch is a classic throwback but #17 is interesting as well because it's implied he was brought back at the end of the Cell Arc but we never actually see him.

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