Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

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Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Desassina » Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:39 pm

The potential side of S-Cells is confirmed, but let's not forget that humans can pass potential down to others, at least in Chi-Chi and Gohan's case. There could be some genetic innuendo going on and what led me to create this thread was the fact that Pan inherited the Saiyan side coming from Gohan. She contributed to a Super Saiyan God ritual and is the daughter of Videl. Mothers, in general, could be carriers of potential, and S-Cells in the Saiyan race, down to Kale and Caulifla.

Gohan hangs out with a hermaphrodite. We only know that Piccolo is one through Toriyama's comments, so his out of universe contributions to the lore need to be carefully addressed, because they might just be implied in the story but never explicitly stated or shown. Genetically speaking, Gohan could be an XX man in half-Saiyan form, because the anomalous chromosome was most likely derived from Goku's XY, and then passed on to Pan, so that she could be a girl with half-Saiyan blood.

Goku, Vegeta and Broly had great potential as full blooded Saiyans, but the former two still carry their own Y chromosome, which means that S-Cells are most likely in female Saiyans, whose race has gone through mutation. Like tetrachromat women, some of them are functional, while the others are hidden. Diagnosis of color sight and/or blindness reveal that some of them have super vision while the others are tetrachromats without it. Scientific studies also prove that XX male mice can reproduce with aid. Toriyama was inspired.
Last edited by Desassina on Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Vijay » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:26 pm

Umm, imma normal DBZ fanboy who loves the series for life. But all those "fan-made Power-Level" discussions, Majin Boo transformations & Kaioken/Bluper/UI/Omen/MUI made me scratching my head even for a guy as simple as me.

And you just took it to whole new level right now by infusing DBZ with genetics.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Anonymous Friend » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:00 pm

Anytime you start going this deep into discussing things in a piece of fiction, the first thing you need to ask yourself:

How much effort did the creator put into this?

Because if they are just making stuff up as they go along and not adding any sort of research into it, you will not get anywhere. Especially with works of fantasy and sci-fi.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Desassina » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:37 pm

It's alright man, I didn't organize my post well, but don't ask. We have come a long way from trying to figure out the author's intentions to interpreting them our own way. We're allowed to make it as deep as we need to without rewriting the story. It's just that I didn't write what I thought was his inspiration that well.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:09 am

Vijay wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:26 pm
Umm, imma normal DBZ fanboy who loves the series for life. But all those "fan-made Power-Level" discussions, Majin Boo transformations & Kaioken/Bluper/UI/Omen/MUI made me scratching my head even for a guy as simple as me.

And you just took it to whole new level right now by infusing DBZ with genetics.
Anonymous Friend wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:00 pm
How much effort did the creator put into this?

Because if they are just making stuff up as they go along and not adding any sort of research into it, you will not get anywhere. Especially with works of fantasy and sci-fi.
Couldn’t agree more, over-analyzing this kind of material in ways like this not only makes little to no sense, it just comes off as being pretentious in general. Especially for a series like this with a simple author like Toriyama.
Of course, it’s a different matter if it’s just your own imagination wanting to run with a concept you found to be interesting.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Desassina » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:15 pm

I'm sorry, but it's been four posts without a contribution to this topic, and it's getting annoying on the basis that I'm "overthinking" because you're simply not interested. I already asked myself whether it was too complicated or not, kept going because the out of universe topic interests me, and Toriyama is not a simple minded artist who can't adapt things to his narrative. Inspiration is a tool to shape the final product. You won't find it in the manga unless you too are inspired, and decide to create tools for people to express themselves, that is to participate in a thread. Do you have any contribution? Would people have asked for the things that are facts when they could check it for themselves?

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:34 pm

Agreed - if you’re not interested, simply don’t respond. If you truly believe it’s not worth discussing, no one else will respond, and you’ll be proven right without needing to make a scene.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:09 pm

I don’t know much about S-Cells, but they honestly seem like just another one of Toriyama’s pointless retroactive additions to the story. From what I do know about them, it seems difficult not to compare them to something like the midichlorians.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Desassina » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:37 pm

Ok, maybe not unlike the Star Wars' thing, because it described potential in a time when Broly was getting written through mutation, with Kale and Caulifla going through tingly back stuff, as opposed to just anger and sorrow. I'm glad that Toriyama did not follow that route, and returned the Super Saiyan transformation to its legendary status, when Freeza triggered Broly by remembering Goku's time on Namek. Still, I thought that it would be fun to connect this to genetics, although I'm not officially educated in that matter. Remember when Spider-Man went from radiation to genetic mutation in the first movies? The times helped change the standard of science in fiction.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:29 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:09 pm
I don’t know much about S-Cells, but they honestly seem like just another one of Toriyama’s pointless retroactive additions to the story.
Not only was it pointless, it fundamentally altered what the original DB was all about, hard work being the key to success. Toriyama is now saying that everything Goku accomplished and continues to accomplish is really due to him being "special". The main thing that made Goku likable and relatable was the fact that he was a nobody who managed to pull himself up though hard work. This whole "S-cell" nonsense is really just a lazy cop-out to justify any Saiyan introduced in the future being able to go Ssj without the need for development.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:42 pm

Well, even before we knew his Saiyan heritage, we knew there was always something special about Goku and it wasn't just his temperament.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:42 pm
Well, even before we knew his Saiyan heritage, we knew there was always something special about Goku and it wasn't just his temperament.
Hard work was always the main reason for his success. Every time he came up on top, it was due to his willingness to put in the work and think outside of the box. It was never about his D.N.A. Now though, we're told that his special blood played a big part in all of his accomplishments, ruining a big part of what made him who he is. What got so many people invested in him was the fact that he was a low class who had no chance of being a success, but through hard work, he proved everyone on his home world who cast him aside to earth wrong. Oh wait, Toriyama changed that too, never mind. It's a real shame that Toriyama and Toei are breaking off bits and pieces of what made Goku such an iconic figure, not only in anime/manga, but entertainment as a whole.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:29 pm

Others worked very hard and didn't make nearly the gains he did. It's a combination of things, including his genetics. He has a tail when no one else did, clearly he was unique beyond the appendage. I don't think saying someone has good genes diminishes their accomplishments. Many had Goku's same physiology and didn't accomplish nearly what he did.

You say what made people invest in him was he was low class, but we only discover that when we find out he is an alien. I'm having trouble understanding your point.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:41 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:01 pm
Hard work was always the main reason for his success. Every time he came up on top, it was due to his willingness to put in the work and think outside of the box. It was never about his D.N.A. Now though, we're told that his special blood played a big part in all of his accomplishments, ruining a big part of what made him who he is. What got so many people invested in him was the fact that he was a low class who had no chance of being a success, but through hard work, he proved everyone on his home world who cast him aside to earth wrong. Oh wait, Toriyama changed that too, never mind. It's a real shame that Toriyama and Toei are breaking off bits and pieces of what made Goku such an iconic figure, not only in anime/manga, but entertainment as a whole.
For me it's bit like if, in a story starring a genius pianist, after 100 chapters revealed he was actually a super-musician created by the government and that he was always destined to be the greatest pianist who ever lived. Sure that probably wouldn't make me hate the character but it casts his accomplishments in a really negative light. His individuality never mattered and his teachers were actually worse than what the government would have offered. What made him great was a specific ATGC combination that could be given to anyone else.

Now obviously genetics plays a huge role in combat sports but they're hardly the deciding factor at the elite level (if they were, Thomas Hearns should have dominated Sugar Ray Leonard and Foreman should have walked over Ali). When Toriyama decided that Goku's strength would come from being a Saiyan it absolutely killed part of what made Goku interesting.

Which isn't to say it was the wrong call. With Saiyans being synomous with DB it's hard to argue that Toriyama didn't know what he was doing. Übermensch are popular in fiction especially in fiction targetted towards young teens so it absolutely worked in the long run even if it made Goku less of an interesting character.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by ABED » Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:44 pm

But he wasn't created and engineered for a purpose. He had a genetic gift but it did take hard work to hone his skills. It's more like genius. All that means is they have a great degree of aptitude to learn, but it still takes effort to learn and sadly many geniuses and prodigies don't amount to much. It doesn't take away from Goku at all.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:59 pm

It took so much hardwork that his alternate reality counterpart (the one with none of the Earth background and training) managed to unlock many of the same levels of power minutes after being told they exist.
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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:34 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:44 pm
He had a genetic gift but it did take hard work to hone his skills. It's more like genius. All that means is they have a great degree of aptitude to learn, but it still takes effort to learn.
This is directly from Toriyama: "It’s not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one’s body must contain something called “S-Cells”.

This completely destroys everything established by the manga, that hard work is the key to success regardless of your background and DNA. The main theme of Goku and Vegeta's first battle was the idea of a low class surpassing an elite through hard work. What this does is throw that out and say you actually do have to be some sort of elite.

Why change something that already worked perfectly ?
ABED wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:29 pm
You say what made people invest in him was he was low class, but we only discover that when we find out he is an alien. I'm having trouble understanding your point.
Even before finding out he was a low class alien, he was still a nobody at the start of the story. He was just a random kid living alone in a small house in the middle of the woods, but through hard work, he ended up being the most famous person on earth after winning the 23rd tenkaichi.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:45 am

I thought an aspect of S-Cells was that they only develop in Saiyans with a peaceful disposition or a peaceful environment. So it’s not like you just have to be born lucky, personality is a factor. It’s just the pseudo-scientific explanation for why ever Super Saiyan is pure-hearted. Except Vegeta, who really just brute-forced his way there.

It’s pointless getting angry about S-Cells because a) it’s just something Toriyama farted out in an interview and probably won’t impact anything and b) come on, this ain’t Star Wars. If S-Cells had been mentioned alongside blutz waves and scouters and zenos, nobody have bat an eye.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:44 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:45 am
It’s just something Toriyama farted out in an interview and probably won’t impact anything.

If S-Cells had been mentioned alongside blutz waves, nobody have bat an eye.
It's being used to justify giving every new Saiyan the forms without having to work for them.

Of course not, because that's how things would've been from the very start. The issue fans have is that we've gone decades being told and shown one thing, only to now be told the complete opposite. If it's not broken, don't fix it, because you'll just end up breaking it.

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Re: Toriyama's depiction of S-Cells is unlike midichlorians: people hung up on potential.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:10 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:45 am
It’s pointless getting angry about S-Cells because a) it’s just something Toriyama farted out in an interview and probably won’t impact anything and b) come on, this ain’t Star Wars. If S-Cells had been mentioned alongside blutz waves and scouters and zenos, nobody have bat an eye.
Blutz waves were an explanation to something we'd already seen and worked out the rules for. We'd known since Pilaf that if Goku looked directly at a full moon he would transform into a giant monkey. We also knew if his tail was severed he'd transform back, that his tail was hyper sensitive, that simply being exposed to full moonlight wouldn't do anything unless Goku looked directly at it, and that if exposure to moonlight was cut off he'd also transform back. So giving us a name for what specifically in moonlight triggered the transformation isn't really knew information. Plus, part of the Saiyan Arc was contrasting Goku's spiritual upbringing with the Saiyans' more scientific and spiritually lacking lifestyle. So on a thematic level, it was the right place to introduce the Oozaru transformation from the Saiyan's perspective.

S-cells have none of that. There's no larger themes for them to be worked into. They don't provide a new perspective on something we'd seen in the show. If anything they muddle the story even more. You now have to work to explain things like why is Trunks able to go SSJ so easily if Vegeta wasn't an SSJ when he was conceived (has Vegeta been pure of heart since Namek? Why does Trunks have an easy a time of it as Goten who was conceived by someone who'd been a SSJ for years? Ok, this is Dragon Ball and we aren't meant to think about anything. But then why introduce an answer to a question nobody asked?)
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