Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[WittyUsername]

I don't think there's a Mary Sue in Dragon Ball. However, IMO there's at least two Gary Stus: Trunks and the old Bardock.

Why do you consider the old Bardock to be one?

He's the father of the protagonist, have somehow his own armor and a PL of 10000. Also, he can see the future and can even transform in Super Saiyan. Too much for a supposedly average saiyan.

Bardock’s ability to see into the future isn’t a gift. It doesn’t benefit him in anyway over the course of the special. All it does it torture him about the fact that his race is going to die, and he can’t do anything about it. Him being the father of the protagonist also doesn’t really mean much, since Bardock isn’t some celebrated warrior who died with glory. He’s a nobody who Freeza only vaguely remembers as that one Saiyan who tried to stop him from destroying Vegeta.

I do agree that him having a power level of 10,000 is ridiculous for a supposed low-level, but in-universe, Bardock isn’t supposed to be seen as anything special. As for the Super Saiyan thing, I’d hesitate to classify EoB as being part of the original version of Bardock’s story. That’s just a silly little what-if story that was made to help promote an arcade game.

[SSJgogeto]

Bardock’s ability to see into the future isn’t a gift.

I know, but he still has it. It's something who makes him "special".

[Shaddy]

The birth of the term is literally rooted in sexism and punching down, though, so it's difficult's an inherently derogatory term.

It's difficult though, because the writing tendency it describes is one worth discussing. A character who is liked by everyone and good at everything, no matter how little they actually deserve it. We just need to rebrand the trope with a new name. I suggest "Sasuke Uchiha".

[JulieYBM]

The birth of the term is literally rooted in sexism and punching down, though, so it's difficult's an inherently derogatory term.

It's difficult though, because the writing tendency it describes is one worth discussing. A character who is liked by everyone and good at everything, no matter how little they actually deserve it. We just need to rebrand the trope with a new name. I suggest "Sasuke Uchiha".

I don't think you can accurately describe Sasuke as such, considering he develops as a character and for all of his mistakes his only two friends are his older wife and his other teammate. Sasuke really does get his ass handed to him a lot, too.

[Matches Malone]

I agree with Future Trunks, especially when we take Super into account.

- He gets a new form out of nowhere that lets him compete with God tier characters
- He invents a better version of one of Goku's strongest attacks from out of nowhere, and defeats a villain that Goku, Vegeta, and even Vegeto couldn't defeat.

Same here, although I don't really care about the Mafuba one way or another. It's such a shame they did this to Future Trunks of all characters considering how much hell he had to go through in the original to accomplish his goals. Now he can just do whatever because he wants to.

[ABED]

Would it be any better if the term was unisex?

I would think so, at least to a certain extent, but I can't say for sure. It's really about figuring out which aspects of the concept are legitimate and which are not, while leaving the sexism out of it.

I think the concept is legit, but the name needs a little work.

Anyway, while I think Trunks is probably the closest, he's not better than eeryone else at everything and he doesn't do something Vegetto literally couldn't. As I recall, Vegetto was winning the battle and it was only after Black and Zamasu fused that Trunks could even do anything. I don't think the Genki Dama sword was a more powerful attack than anything Goku used but it is a deus ex machina, but in all honesty, I'm fine with it. It doesn't hold together logically, but thematically it works.

[LoganForkHands73]

The Super Saiyan kids Goten and Trunks probably conform as well. Although their transformation is treated as a joke and on their own they can't seem to do much in the current hierarchy, they do play a big role in the Buu Saga.

I agree that the term "Mary Sue" is cringeworthy and outdated in this day and age. It dates back to a time when you had whole forums like the PPC dedicated to "morally sanctioned cyberbullying" against no-name fanfic writers. It's like even if they produce shit, they're not harming anyone. Anyway, yeah, even if it's a valid critique of bad writing, it needs a new name.

[goku the krump dancer]

Would it be any better if the term was unisex?

I would think so, at least to a certain extent, but I can't say for sure. It's really about figuring out which aspects of the concept are legitimate and which are not, while leaving the sexism out of it.

I think the concept is legit, but the name needs a little work.

Anyway, while I think Trunks is probably the closest, he's not better than eeryone else at everything and he doesn't do something Vegetto literally couldn't. As I recall, Vegetto was winning the battle and it was only after Black and Zamasu fused that Trunks could even do anything. I don't think the Genki Dama sword was a more powerful attack than anything Goku used but it is a deus ex machina, but in all honesty, I'm fine with it. It doesn't hold together logically, but thematically it works.

Yeah I think folks are too hung up on the Spirit Bomb itself as opposed to how it was formed to begin with. Trunks never asked to gather energy from people, it just happened through sheer force of will and Trunks took advantage.

[SupremeKai25]

Many people also misunderstand what Trunks actually did with that Spirit Bomb. He didn't kill Fused Zamasu, he just permanently disrupted his unstable regeneration, which was their plan. But he didn't actually kill Zamasu. It was Zamasu himself who then decided to abandon his flawed body and become an astral entity, like Gowasu explains in the following episode. So in short Trunks didn't really accomplish a lot with that Spirit Bomb sword and most people blow his feats out of proportion.

Honestly, when it comes to Trunks, I can never tell what the general consensus is. Many people consider his moment at the end an asspull, because he was fodder compared to Rosé Black and shouldn't have been able to 1v1 Fused Zamasu (which is the main argument people use). Others instead hate the ending of the arc because it basically made Trunks look like a useless idiot who couldn't protect anyone. So which is it?

[ABED]

I think he should have as it goes to the core of the arc. I can deal with clunky execution, but the anticlimax is so unsatisfying, Gary Stu be damned.

[JulieYBM]

The ending of that arc definitely could use a tweak. Trunks should fight Black in a final one-on-one after Merged Zamasu is defeated and then finally kill him that way. Less is more.

[WittyUsername]

I never was a fan of the Genki Dama Sword thing, but the fact that it was ultimately rendered moot just made it all the more jarring. They made a big deal about how the bonds between humans were greater than Zamasu’s twisted sense of justice, but then, immediately in the next episode, they just had Zamasu kill everyone, and the most supreme God of all had to clean it all up.

[ABED]

It was dumb. It's like climaxing and then keeping going without a refractory period. It's all a bunch of friction and wasted mostion.

[Fionordequester]

Personally? I absolutely loved the ending to Future Trunks, for several reasons.
---------------------------------------
1) I thought the "Spirit Sword" was some of the most rushed, laziest writing I'd ever seen in Dragon Ball. I can sort of headcanon a lot of the logical problems away, but... I really shouldn't have to. I would've hated for what had been one of my favorite arcs to end that way.

2) Our heroes lost! And when I say "lost", I don't mean a temporary setback or defeat. I mean, they actually, truly lost. Zamasu won. He ultimately got everything he wanted, even if it did cost him everything. I wouldn't want every arc to end this way, but... I can't tell you how refreshing it was, seeing Toriyama say "Yes, our heroes ARE allowed to lose! Even Whis & the Dragon Balls can't solve everything..."

3) Related to #2 is the revelation that some enemies just cannot be beat with raw power. Our heroes lost the moment they let Black & Zamasu fuse. They could've had 1000 Vegettos, and the outcome would have stayed the same.

4) The ending was awesome foreshadowing for the Universal Survival arc.

5) Zamasu (all three forms of him) was an awesome villain. He's basically Satan in both backstory, personality, and motivation. He's an immortal, fallen deity with a strong sense of righteous indignation, yet utterly lacks even the slightest hint of compassion or humility. He is an accuser that shames mortals for all their failings, yet embodies every one of their worst qualities. He is so depraved, that he warps the very laws of nature. He gets stronger from self-mutilation, invents his own twisted form of SSJ Blue, casually rips apart the fabric of reality, and eventually infects the universe itself. He broke things so completely, that Zeno himself had to erase the universe. Nothing less would have done it.

6) It shows the right reaction to having lost everything. Future Trunks could have let himself down in despair, as many do... But instead, he accepts his fate, chooses to look towards a brighter future, and resolves to do a better job next time. If that's not the appropriate reaction to loss, I don't know what is.
---------------------------------------

[Robo4900]

Personally? I absolutely loved the ending to Future Trunks, for several reasons.

Interesting take.

Prepare to engage me in the field of VERBAL COMBAT!
At arms, fiend! For soon, you will feel my wrath as I use LOGIC and OPINIONS to voice DISAGREEMENT with this HOT TAKE of yours!! En garde!!

1) I thought the "Spirit Sword" was some of the most rushed, laziest writing I'd ever seen in Dragon Ball. I can sort of headcanon a lot of the logical problems away, but... I really shouldn't have to. I would've hated for what had been one of my favorite arcs to end that way.

My apologies, but I don't understand how this is a reason why you love the Black arc's ending.

2) Our heroes lost! And when I say "lost", I don't mean a temporary setback or defeat. I mean, they actually, truly lost. Zamasu won. He ultimately got everything he wanted, even if it did cost him everything. I wouldn't want every arc to end this way, but... I can't tell you how refreshing it was, seeing Toriyama say "Yes, our heroes ARE allowed to lose! Even Whis & the Dragon Balls can't solve everything..."

So...

I firmly believe that the heroes of a work should lose, and lose BIG now and then. Not regularly, maybe not even more than once in their history unless it's a REALLY long run...
But, the heroes should lose.

And I think that Dragon Ball could raise its stakes in the modern era by making the heroes lose, and lose BIG. Unreservedly, unambiguously, totally, and completely LOSE. In every sense of the word. And in the past, Dragon Ball has played with this a few times -- the Piccolo arc's low point is about as big a loss as was conceivable at the time, even after Goku killed Piccolo, the Saiyan arc ended with the baddie still alive, all the friends dead, and no possibility of earth's Dragon Balls returning... But even then, the loss was ultimately not so bad in the end, so argaubly Dragon Ball was about due for a BIG, unreserved loss like no other, and the Black arc could have been that. The ultimate escalation on Dragon Ball's infinitely, frustratingly escalating power scale -- things get so crazy that the heroes lose, and they lose SO HARD.
... But, they didn't give them a big loss here.

Sure, Zamas succeeded in his plan... In his one timeline... But Trunks gets to return to a version of that timeline, which is treated as a happy ending of sorts even though it barely makes sense.
And our heroes in the main timeline?... They feel no consequences at all. They end the story having dinner, chilling out, and being like "Yeah, I guess that could've gone better. Oh well. It all turned out okay in the end."

The Black arc's ending wasn't the big loss it could've been. It was A loss, but the main characters who stick around lost nothing, Trunks didn't really lose much, and even what he did lose, we never actually get to see it sink in, because the moment after he's told "oh it's fine you can return to an earlier point in your time", he's gone, and we never hear from him again.

I find the Black arc's ending frustrating, most of all, because it's initially presented as "THE" big failure our heroes get in Dragon Ball... But there are zero consequences for that failure. Ultimately, it means nothing. That failure is actually less impactful than every other minor failure the heroes get along the way to their ultimate victory in any given arc, because like all those minor failures, they walk away from it slightly beaten down, ready to try again... But rather than the low point of any other storyline, the villain doesn't actually take anything from our heroes. They've lost nothing. And there's no lesson to learn here, no flaw in their fighting, it's just... Over. It'd be like if, after snapping his finger in Infinity War, the movie then shows the heroes immediately go back in time, cut off Thanos's head, then continue with their lives in a version of history where Thanos never snapped his finger. Yes, they lost... But they only lost for a few minutes, and now everything's kinda just... Fine. A few peoples' day-to-day lives are now a little inconvenienced, but... That's it.

So it's a loss without consequence, without a lesson, without weight... Without anything. It's totally insubstantial. It's a critical failure of storytelling, and does not work on any level whatsoever.

3) Related to #2 is the revelation that some enemies just cannot be beat with raw power. Our heroes lost the moment they let Black & Zamasu fuse. They could've had 1000 Vegettos, and the outcome would have stayed the same.

Agreed. I do love the sort of inevitability of "No, this is happening, and there's not a fucking thing you could have ever done right to win this one." Though this somewhat ties into what I said earlier...

Much like Infinity War, and much like the Piccolo arc of Dragon Ball, there's a certain inevitability to the failures inherent to the story: Even if everyone had done everything right, and they kinda did, really, there was nothing they could have done to stop this.
The problem is, that only works with a ballsy, big-loss ending. And the ending has no one really lose anything, so there's no lesson to be learned, so... Sadly, this neat element doesn't work.

And even this element was half-assed; if they'd taken the paper seal for the Mafuba, then that plan would've worked.
IIRC the Mafuba wasn't in the manga, though, so that's one of Toei's many stupid additions to the story that makes things unspeakably worse in Super.

4) The ending was awesome foreshadowing for the Universal Survival arc.

Care to expand on this?

5) Zamasu (all three forms of him) was an awesome villain. He's basically Satan in both backstory, personality, and motivation. He's an immortal, fallen deity with a strong sense of righteous indignation, yet utterly lacks even the slightest hint of compassion or humility. He is an accuser that shames mortals for all their failings, yet embodies every one of their worst qualities. He is so depraved, that he warps the very laws of nature. He gets stronger from self-mutilation, invents his own twisted form of SSJ Blue, casually rips apart the fabric of reality, and eventually infects the universe itself. He broke things so completely, that Zeno himself had to erase the universe. Nothing less would have done it.

Agreed.

6) It shows the right reaction to having lost everything. Future Trunks could have let himself down in despair, as many do... But instead, he accepts his fate, chooses to look towards a brighter future, and resolves to do a better job next time. If that's not the appropriate reaction to loss, I don't know what is.

I agree. Though I hate that we don't actually get to see anything come of this. If, for instance, he'd been stranded in the prime timeline for a while, so we get to see him force himself to move on, then something would've come of all this, there would have been some form of consequence, and we could have had an interesting arc of Trunks struggling to learn the lesson from his failure, even though there is no lesson to be learned.

But instead, Toriyama, Toei, & Toyotaro took the easy way out, had him fuck off at the end of the story, and everything resets to the exact state we were in when the story started. You could skip it and miss nothing. And I hate that. They squandered SO MUCH potential here.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Cell. The guy is just too perfect. I mean seriously!

[Fionordequester]

My apologies, but I don't understand how this is a reason why you love the Black arc's ending.

Because then it would've just been Trunks chopping Fused Zamasu in half with a technique he literally pulled out of thin air... Without even realizing he was doing it.

So it's a loss without consequence, without a lesson, without weight... Without anything. It's totally insubstantial. It's a critical failure of storytelling, and does not work on any level whatsoever.

I agree that the ending had tonal issues in presentation. The fact is, though, there's still a timeline where everything died. It cannot be undone, and never will be undone. Trunks & Mai will be reminded of that every time they look at their clones.

Kind of like how Trunks reacted when Gohan waved goodbye. Yes, there's a Gohan that's alive, but it doesn't negate the death of the other one.

The problem with the ending wasn't that nothing significant happened. The problem was that I'm not sure the narrative itself realized the significance of what happened. Regardless, it still opens up the possibility for more loss.

[ earlier...

IIRC the Mafuba wasn't in the manga, though, so that's one of Toei's many stupid additions to the story that makes things unspeakably worse in Super.

No, the manga had it, too. It's just that, instead of Goku forgetting, Roshi just gave him a porn coupon on accident. He mixed it up with the Talisman.

Care to expand on this?

It's one thing to talk about how dangerous and sociopathic Zeno is. It's another thing to actually see it.

But instead, Toriyama, Toei, & Toyotaro took the easy way out, had him fuck off at the end of the story, and everything resets to the exact state we were in when the story started. You could skip it and miss nothing. And I hate that. They squandered SO MUCH potential here.

But there IS potential, now. If things can get so desperate now, they can do so again. That wasn't something I thought was possible, until now.

You see what I'm saying? Future possibilities?

[Robo4900]

Cell. The guy is just too perfect. I mean seriously!

Best response to this thread so far. Bravo!

Because then it would've just been Trunks chopping Fused Zamasu in half with a technique he literally pulled out of thin air... Without even realizing he was doing it.

Sorry, I still don't follow. This sounds like you're criticising this turn, rather than talking positively about it...?

I agree that the ending had tonal issues in presentation. The fact is, though, there's still a timeline where everything died. It cannot be undone, and never will be undone. Trunks & Mai will be reminded of that every time they look at their clones.

I guess, but I mean... To me, that's just like how there's also two timelines where everything went to shit in the Cell arc too; the one that Cell came from, and the one the Trunks that Cell killed went to. We know it's there; the text of the story points to it being there. But it doesn't matter in the slighest, because despite its existence holding some fridge horror, the story never actually does anything with it.

We never see how Bulma copes with Trunks's death in the timeline Cell came from, we never see how things shake out in the timeline his Trunks went to where, for all we know, Cell may have murdered all of the protagonists out of his sheer rage at the fact they killed the Cyborgs before he awoke. We never see any of it. So, while we know this timeline exists, we were told about this kind of stuff happening, it's just not explored in the story, so it doesn't matter any more than any of the other arguable implications that are never explicitly explored (for instance; in my earlier times on this forum, one flimsy way I argued for GT was pointing out some interesting implications of the worldbuilding of the Evil Dragons arc. This is completely flimsy, though, because ultimately it's just implications of the story that are never explored; depths of the dragons that are never played to, such as the fact they likely all know Yi Xing Long is out there, and they only have a limited time to enjoy their lives before they all die to him, and various other implications of the dragons' nature from stuff like Kaio (?) saying this has happened before, in another galaxy. But we never see any of this borne out in the story, so it doesn't factor in).

Kind of like how Trunks reacted when Gohan waved goodbye. Yes, there's a Gohan that's alive, but it doesn't negate the death of the other one.

That's a good moment, but it always felt kinda empty to me. It points to a lot of the stuff Trunks could've done if he'd stuck around in the main timeline for a while to deal with what just happened to him, but instead they tried to cram it into a couple of scenes, and... It just doesn't mean much.

The problem with the ending wasn't that nothing significant happened. The problem was that I'm not sure the narrative itself realized the significance of what happened.

I'd argue that these two things are essentially equivalent. I'll talk about this more a little later, and this plays into what I said just above here about what's actually in the story vs what's described and/or hinted at in the story, but suffice it to say -- my view on this is that yes, these events were very significant, but the narrative not doing anything with that means that they may as well not be significant. The text of the story suggests that yes, it matters very much that a timeline was erased, and Zamas -- for all intents and purposes -- "won", but we never actually see the narrative play into Zamas ultimately being victorious, it ends with everyone being all happy and at peace, the Super standard reset state, and we have no indication that we'll ever hear from Trunks again, he instead gets to live out his happy life with Mai in basically his timeline, so... Even if these events are theoretically significant, once again, if the work doesn't actually do anything with these ideas it's talking about, then they're just insignificant windowdressing.

Once again, it's a case of yes, you can talk about these interesting ideas, but you have to actually play into them for them to matter. And Super just doesn't. It's all potential and ideas, no actual execution or exploration of anything. Very JJ Abrams; it just touches on the surface of a cool-looking idea, then immediately runs away so it can do something else Exciting™ and New™.

No, the manga had it, too. It's just that, instead of Goku forgetting, Roshi just gave him a porn coupon on accident. He mixed it up with the Talisman.

Ah, right. Guess I can't palm this one off on Toei, then; it's a bona-fide Toriyama storytelling screwup.

It's one thing to talk about how dangerous and sociopathic Zeno is. It's another thing to actually see it.

Ah. Fair enough.
Though IIRC the tournament of power reveals itself to have ultimately just been a "Test of character", and Zeno never intended to let the universes die anyway. So, as with everything else in Super, all the stakes and all the interesting ideas are undercut with a reset button. Status quo at all costs. They can add world elements like the multiple universes, but they're utterly fucking TERRIFIED of taking away or changing a single thing. Feels kinda like JJ Abrams approach to writing Star Wars Episode IX.

But instead, Toriyama, Toei, & Toyotaro took the easy way out, had him fuck off at the end of the story, and everything resets to the exact state we were in when the story started. You could skip it and miss nothing. And I hate that. They squandered SO MUCH potential here.

But there IS potential, now. If things can get so desperate now, they can do so again. That wasn't something I thought was possible, until now.

You see what I'm saying? Future possibilities?

If a story could be judged on its potential, The Purge would've been a really awesome movie.

Potential is nice, but unless you actually use it, and use it right, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

[Melee_Sovereign]

OP or mods, I humbly request that you fix the title. My OCD is getting triggered badly.

[Robo4900]

OP or mods, I humbly request that you fix the title. My OCD is getting triggered badly.

What do you mean? It's a statement. We've all been debating like idiots, when the OP was intending to say something very specific -- everyone's favourite baseball player, Who, is a Mary Sue character in Dragon Ball. It's certainly a controversial view.

(But yes, the title does bug me slightly too)