Dragon Ball Lore

[ABED]

Those sources seem like you did a quick google search for "art is objective". I haven't been to grad school, but I've taken a few grad level courses in college and read my fair share of peer reviewed articles, and can attest to the fact that even scholarly articles can still get it wrong.

I don't doubt that there's some degree of objectivity to art and aesthetics (things like being attracted to symmetry), but there's no way it's 100% objective. If it were, everyone would have the exact same taste.

Well put.

[GhostEmperorX]

Agreed, especially as far as the fact that DB has little to nothing like "prophecies" or a "chosen one", basically anything along those lines, or any deep backstories, old DB and Z at least, there's really not much need for lore in it.

[ABED]

I don't think deep lore is ever needed in a story beyond what it takes for the story to make sense and for the emotion/payoff to land. If the author wants create a rich history of the world, the story isn't the best place to put it. That's what appendices or guidebooks, and apparently interviews are for.

[kemuri07]

I don't think deep lore is ever needed in a story beyond what it takes for the story to make sense and for the emotion/payoff to land. If the author wants create a rich history of the world, the story isn't the best place to put it. That's what appendices or guidebooks, and apparently interviews are for.

What good writers generally do is make their "world building bible" first, and then craft the story around that. It makes for a far more cohesive story where the lore distracts from the storytelling. The problem with a lot of anime is you can tell that a lot of shows just sort make it up as they go along. I mean, that's DB to a T. But Dragonball is also pretty light, so it usually got away with it.

[ABED]

I don't think deep lore is ever needed in a story beyond what it takes for the story to make sense and for the emotion/payoff to land. If the author wants create a rich history of the world, the story isn't the best place to put it. That's what appendices or guidebooks, and apparently interviews are for.

What good writers generally do is make their "world building bible" first, and then craft the story around that. It makes for a far more cohesive story where the lore distracts from the storytelling. The problem with a lot of anime is you can tell that a lot of shows just sort make it up as they go along. I mean, that's DB to a T. But Dragonball is also pretty light, so it usually got away with it.

Tarantino said he wrote a scene in Kill Bill that he knew was never going to make it in the movie, but he needed it for himself when he was crafting that world and his story. That's great if that's his process and he understood that if it doesn't belong in the narrative it shouldn't stay.

Pantsing isn't a bad thing at all, especially if you have a good sense of structure. There are dangers to that, but there are also dangers to planning as well. If you are too stringent in following the plan, you miss opportunities. You're point about DB being light is spot on. It's not a dense story, making it easier to figure out when the story beats fall.

[TheNingen]

Science has already proven that art and beauty are objective realities.:
http://darwinianconservatism.blogspot.c ... y.html?m=1
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8803339199
https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sc ... subjective

The idea that beauty is only subjective is a modern western myth. There are traits which people from every culture throughout history have valued as attractive.

Only insecure ugly people and folks who are hyper-PC seriously deny the objective reality of beauty.

Just because people like different stuff doesnt mean theres no objective basis for what they like.

Literally not a single one of those articles given is an actual, proven scientific study. They're just arguments and assumptions, and not particularly good ones at that. I find it odd that you and one of your sources feel the need to politicise this.

Who has the right to censor anyone's perception of what they find beautiful? That's how you erase the L.S. Lowry's of the world and get to a real Orwellian nightmare.

Second, beauty does not equal goodness or quality.

You are being in denial. 2 of my links showcased empirical research, which you dismissed just because you don't like facts.

Also, nobody here said beauty = moral good.

You are being in denial. 3 of my fellow posters took part in an empirical research experiment in peer reviewing your posted articles and showed using logic and actual research why your links are utter bollocks, which you dismissed just because you don't like facts.

Also getting back to the lore bit...Dragon Ball doesn't need an expanding lore. Most of the times it has, the fans have utterly disliked it because it hasn't made sense. The most well received thing has been the God hierarchy,

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

The story breaks under the weight of expanding lore. A story like Dragon Ball isn't suited for it. It isn't meant to be this grand adventure ala Star Wars or LotR

[SupremeKai25]

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

What's wrong with the "28 planets" bit? Buu, Freeza, and Moro ravaged countless worlds throughout the years and Beerus and Shin were both incompetent gods, so it's not that far-fetched.

About Jiren and the Pride Troopers in the Future, maybe Zamasu and Black just blew up their planets and killed them? I know this sounds impossible, because Jiren was much stronger than Zamasu and Black, but so was SSB Vegeta and he still got blown up when an exhausted Freeza destroyed the Earth. Also we know that Zamasu and Black had already destroyed countless mortal civilizations before attacking Earth.

[Polyphase Avatron]

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

What's wrong with the "28 planets" bit? Buu, Freeza, and Moro ravaged countless worlds throughout the years and Beerus and Shin were both incompetent gods, so it's not that far-fetched.

About Jiren and the Pride Troopers in the Future, maybe Zamasu and Black just blew up their planets and killed them? I know this sounds impossible, because Jiren was much stronger than Zamasu and Black, but so was SSB Vegeta and he still got blown up when an exhausted Freeza destroyed the Earth. Also we know that Zamasu and Black had already destroyed countless mortal civilizations before attacking Earth.

I think SDBH actually did a decent job of portraying how Jiren vs. Zamasu would go. Jiren can beat him and blast him all he likes, but in the end he can't hurt him, and he'll eventually run out of ki and get killed.

[TheNingen]

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

What's wrong with the "28 planets" bit? Buu, Freeza, and Moro ravaged countless worlds throughout the years and Beerus and Shin were both incompetent gods, so it's not that far-fetched.

About Jiren and the Pride Troopers in the Future, maybe Zamasu and Black just blew up their planets and killed them? I know this sounds impossible, because Jiren was much stronger than Zamasu and Black, but so was SSB Vegeta and he still got blown up when an exhausted Freeza destroyed the Earth. Also we know that Zamasu and Black had already destroyed countless mortal civilizations before attacking Earth.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm only saying that fans have disliked it and had a problems with it. I have no care or opinion on the plot point myself. Just expressing that certain lore expansions have garnered negative reception from many in the fanbase

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of the 28 planets thing, I personally didn’t have much of an issue with it at the time, but ever since Freeza got brought back to life, and went back to ruling over his empire, it’s become a bit of a difficult pill to swallow.

[Sadala Elite]

Literally not a single one of those articles given is an actual, proven scientific study. They're just arguments and assumptions, and not particularly good ones at that. I find it odd that you and one of your sources feel the need to politicise this.

Who has the right to censor anyone's perception of what they find beautiful? That's how you erase the L.S. Lowry's of the world and get to a real Orwellian nightmare.

Second, beauty does not equal goodness or quality.

You are being in denial. 2 of my links showcased empirical research, which you dismissed just because you don't like facts.

Also, nobody here said beauty = moral good.

You are being in denial. 3 of my fellow posters took part in an empirical research experiment in peer reviewing your posted articles and showed using logic and actual research why your links are utter bollocks, which you dismissed just because you don't like facts.

Also getting back to the lore bit...Dragon Ball doesn't need an expanding lore. Most of the times it has, the fans have utterly disliked it because it hasn't made sense. The most well received thing has been the God hierarchy,

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

The story breaks under the weight of expanding lore. A story like Dragon Ball isn't suited for it. It isn't meant to be this grand adventure ala Star Wars or LotR

- Lmao. YOU are the one who doesn't like facts. I listed scientific, replicated research which proves me right, which you dismissed (and obviously didnt read lol) because it doesnt suit your biases.

Where is the alleged logic and research here that proved me wrong? You sound delusional.

- Most of the stuff you listed has nothing to do with lore (which obviously wasn't what Toriyama was going for), but are simply examples of terrible writing.

- Dragonball became a grand adventure story ever since the RRA saga (and the anime filler around that time). This isn't a new direction for the series.

[Sadala Elite]

Those sources seem like you did a quick google search for "art is objective". I haven't been to grad school, but I've taken a few grad level courses in college and read my fair share of peer reviewed articles, and can attest to the fact that even scholarly articles can still get it wrong.

I don't doubt that there's some degree of objectivity to art and aesthetics (things like being attracted to symmetry), but there's no way it's 100% objective. If it were, everyone would have the exact same taste.

Well put.

Where's your prove that they're wrong? You whole post just says "its false because I don't like it", which is exactly how all science deniers sound.

[Sadala Elite]

2 of the 3 sites provide links to peer-reviewed studies that prove my point.

One of the three sites lists only Wikipedia as a source for the images, with no other link, another has a link but the link is dead, and the third is a q&a, not a study.

And even if you could dig up some article by Deutsch, that doesn't prove anything. It suggests it. If you want to use academia to prove your point, use the correct terminology. it's important.

You sound like your in denial.

[SupremeKai25]

but the life on only 29 planets bit, the ever-changing power goalpost that is Beerus, and how Black/Zamasu could have succeeded in killing the GoD of Universe 11 when Jiren and the Pride Troopers are there and would've found out/known (and yes I know at that point in the story, Jiren and the others hadn't even been thought of nor created/established)

What's wrong with the "28 planets" bit? Buu, Freeza, and Moro ravaged countless worlds throughout the years and Beerus and Shin were both incompetent gods, so it's not that far-fetched.

About Jiren and the Pride Troopers in the Future, maybe Zamasu and Black just blew up their planets and killed them? I know this sounds impossible, because Jiren was much stronger than Zamasu and Black, but so was SSB Vegeta and he still got blown up when an exhausted Freeza destroyed the Earth. Also we know that Zamasu and Black had already destroyed countless mortal civilizations before attacking Earth.

I think SDBH actually did a decent job of portraying how Jiren vs. Zamasu would go. Jiren can beat him and blast him all he likes, but in the end he can't hurt him, and he'll eventually run out of ki and get killed.

Pretty much. Or maybe Jiren just died in the Future timeline cause he got a heart virus in those 20 years. You can easily headcanon it away.

[ABED]

What lore do you all like?

[ekrolo2]

No one was talking about the appeal of the character, we're saying that a backstory for the important characters is essential for the story itself in general (this is storytelling 101).

Nobody here ever said that a detailed backstory is needed for a character to liked.

And yet Dragon Ball breaks this rule constantly and still successfully does its characters without it.

The vast majority of DB characters have have known backstories and origins. So your argument is false.

Yes, most of which don't even exist until well after a character is already firmly established and 100% defined without one. Roshi is a fully formed character thanks to his personality and how he plays off others before Piccolo was even the beginnings of a concept. The same thing is with Goku being a Saiyan, Vegeta being the Prince, Daimao's connection to God...

Goku is a particularly good example to cite because all of Goku's "Saiyan traits" exist well before the idea of him being an alien is even a thing. Wanting to get stronger, seeking new challenges, pulling risky shit off to make things more interesting are all Goku's traits before the seventh arc starts the trend of it being a species-wide set of characteristics.

[Psajdak]

I often feel like Zalama, and King Sadala are just characters who are mentioned only for the sake of that moment they were mentioned in, and not as some foreshadowing for their eventual appearance.

Kinda like Metamor (do we even know what they look like?) were mentioned just to give some some background to the Fusion.

Lore in general seems more fitting for RPG games, than in anime format.

[ABED]

Lore in general seems more fitting for RPG games, than in anime format.

That's interesting. I've never played. Care to expand on why?

[Psajdak]

Lore in general seems more fitting for RPG games, than in anime format.

That's interesting. I've never played. Care to expand on why?

If you never played any RPG, it is kinda like trying to explain someone taste of chocolate to someone who don't posses taste buds.

I'll try; RPGs, JRPGs to be more precise are games where usually emphasis is being put on characters, and plot, but also "trivial" things like talking to NPCs are often important part of overall experience.

Like, you have a group of characters on their quest to save the world, and slowly, but surely their end goal becomes clear, like stopping the final boss, or uncovering some ancient secret.
On their journey, one can easily follow the story simply by following cutscenes.

But in places that they pass through, there are also a lot of people they can talk to, and hear rumors, infos, or simply completely irrelevant stuff, or find some random old books about sealing the ultimate monster in another dimension; all of that can usually be skipped, but on the other hand it gives so much more volume to the world, it makes it seem more alive.

[ABED]

Well, I'm familiar with the concept, and like everyone, I've played Final Fantasy VII.