Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 20 - DB episode 86-90

[Robo4900]

King Chapa is a neat character, but I love that he's essentially a weakling in comparison to Goku. I honestly completely forgot that he comes back for the 23rd... I look forward to getting there and seeing that.

Heh. I forgot that here is where we really start seeing all the bonkers techniques this show is somewhat known for; 8-hand punch/Hashuken is a delightfully bonkers thing.
... I kinda wish Mandelin had just rendered the technique as The Eight-Hand Punch, though. "He's using the Hashuken! [TL note: Hashuken = "8-hand punch"]" remains a thing that I find clunky and hate.

I love that Chaozu is just a colossal dick here. Really helps you hate him and Tenshinhan. But also it's hilarious.

Also, I love that Chaozu rigs the tournament draw.
It's not exactly cheating to win, so it's not completely evil, but it's a fun little game of manipulation. Plus it gives an easy out of having to contrive a reason for Jackie Chun to fight Man-Wolf in the first round, and for the general structure of the tournament to be so conveniently dramatic.

This was brought up in the last thread too, but I really do like that the tournament is over multiple days.

Also, I love that they brought back the golden harvest title card.

I'm loving watching these episodes again.
21st Tenkaichi is still my favourite arc -- almost certainly a sizeable portion of that is nostalgia. Really, the thing about the 21st Tenkaichi is it just gives me pure joy to watch it. The 22nd isn't quite as joyful, but is undoubtedly the better story, and it's certainly bolder. If I was to choose the arc that actually begins "Z" as most know it, it would be the 22nd Tenkaichi.
... Perhaps I should wait 'till we actually finish the arc to say summative things like that, but it's going through my mind right now, so I might as well say it.

Bulma isn't a fighter, neither are Puar or Oolong or Dende. Their talents help out in ways that have nothing to do with battle. Yamcha is a warrior so that limits things substantially. Bulma is a tech genius and a great pilot. Puar can transform, and Dende can heal. I like where your head is at, but in the specific case of the warriors, unless they can either keep up or offer some temporary assistance like Tenshinhan being a distraction, I don't see how to use them effectively. Roshi can offer wisdom due to his age and experience.

Well, no reason some of the others can't find other roles to have. Granted, it's not exactly obvious what someone like Yamucha or Tenshinhan would do, but... Well, for instance, in the new Broly movie, Piccolo helps coach Goku and Vegeta to fuse right... It's not something that can be rammed into a story, but particularly in filler, if you need a character to carry out some function, for instance, someone to deliver Senzu, we have Yajirobe still showing up well past his relevance for anything fighting-related.

TBH, the ideal scenario in my head is something like Vegeta in GT, where we see him show up in scenes where a bunch of the classic ensemble are gathered for talking over the issue, and then we get a few cutaway scenes to slice of life stuff with him, plus one spotlight episode for him, and thus, through all this, we get a neat character arc with him, which ultimately culminates in him having a critical role in the last arc.
... Of course, in Vegeta's case, that critical role was that he got a powerup so he could fight, but... You get my point, I'm sure.

Granted, I'm a strong proponent of the idea that irrelevant characters shouldn't be in a story AT ALL, but irrelevant doesn't mean "can fight the big bad one-on-one", irrelevant means they have no purpose in the story.

I agree and that's a great example with Mr. Satan, but DB has such a big cast, that I don't know how all those warrior can or even should remain active members.

Yeah, that's fair. And tbh I agree.
Super has a serious problem right now of trying to shove anyone and everyone into every storyline in a fighting role, and it just bogs everything down, and uses up valuable screentime that could be spent on people who make sense... And as a whole, it just makes large parts of various major storylines make no sense (U6 tournament, ResF, Tournament of Power, Trunks's entire role in the Black arc...).

I do like that Roshi has some relevance in the form of showing Goku that there's something he still needs to learn (Ultra Instinct, which I maintain is a solid idea that was executed about as well as Cats (2019); they decided to take this cool spiritual and philosophical idea that Goku can reach new heights by, rather than getting stronger, emptying his mind of all unnecessary thoughts, and living purely in the moment he's in, etc., and they turned it into another fucking generic "now he's stronger so he can fight the big bad" transformation), though his presence in the tournament was entirely unjustified until that moment, which was moments before he was eliminated from it... Because rather than spend time building up to this lesson Roshi's trying to teach Goku, Super instead would rather have more unfunny "LOL TITS" jokes revolving around Roshi, and have more pure-fanservice fights between Tenshinhan or Piccolo or Kuririn and some fighter who should probably be way, way, WAY beyond them given the power levels we're dealing with these days...

Anyway, I'm rambling now. I think I probably could have left it at "tbh I agree", but I guess I've typed all these thoughts of mine out now, so... There they are.

[Matches Malone]

Toriyama got quite lazy about handling tertiary characters after about the Saiyan arc, and that led to a lot of problems... Yamucha becomes a meme, Tenshinhan gets nothing to do, Kuririn was largely demoted to extra...

Even after the Saiyan arc, they were still treated with respect. Krillin and Tien still had their moments, and when Yamcha got stabbed by Gero, everyone took it seriously. His meme status is more of a modern thing inspired by the "fans". Now though, I honestly can't see anyone taking Yamcha getting hurt seriously.

[ABED]

Toriyama got quite lazy about handling tertiary characters after about the Saiyan arc, and that led to a lot of problems... Yamucha becomes a meme, Tenshinhan gets nothing to do, Kuririn was largely demoted to extra...

Even after the Saiyan arc, they were still treated with respect. Krillin and Tien still had their moments, and when Yamcha got stabbed by Gero, everyone took it seriously. His meme status is more of a modern thing inspired by the "fans". Now though, I honestly can't see anyone taking Yamcha getting hurt seriously.

They took near death seriously. I get your point but that's not the same as Yamcha landing on his nards in his fight against Shen.

[Robo4900]

Huh. Was anyone else aware that Funi changed what confused Chaozu at the tournament?

In Japanese, he has trouble remembering which direction is right, and which is left. In the Funi dub, he's bad at counting.

In Japanese, Kuririn confuses Chaozu on which direction he's approaching from; in the Funi dub, he assaults him with simple maths equations that he stops the fight to think about.

[Danfun64]

I think it's both? The math stuff comes in at ep 91?

[MyVisionity]

Toriyama was pretty much done with those characters after the 23rd Budoukai. I think that the Saiyan arc was a new beginning for him. The reunion at Roshi's place pretty much tells the audience how it's gonna be moving forward. You get the typical "written out of the show" dialogue about Lunch and Tenshinhan, with Yamcha nowhere to be found. Kuririn and Bulma will stick around, and now Gohan and Piccolo are added to the mix.

The problem is that Toriyama wouldn't commit to writing them out entirely, and so you have Yamcha and Tenshinhan still hanging around in the background when they mostly shouldn't be there, even though the focus has clearly shifted.

As for Lunch, I believe that Toriyama just dropped the character altogether. He probably just didn't particularly care for her. Plus with Chichi's return it may have been one too many women to write in his mind.

Huh. Was anyone else aware that Funi changed what confused Chaozu at the tournament?

In Japanese, he has trouble remembering which direction is right, and which is left. In the Funi dub, he's bad at counting.

In Japanese, Kuririn confuses Chaozu on which direction he's approaching from; in the Funi dub, he assaults him with simple maths equations that he stops the fight to think about.

I don't think Funimation changed it. As stated above, the math is in the next episode.

[KBABZ]

I think Toriyama's problem is that he often writes arcs where they provide no useful benefit but then includes them in the cast ANYWAY because he still considers them regular cast members. I don't think the Buu arc benefited at all from having Yamcha appear in it, while the comparatively weaker Mr. Satan was given his own character arc and is able to be naturally included thanks to Videl, causing interesting conflict and interactions.

And Toriyama's writing style is such that he doesn't really write stories to explore and deconstruct his characters; that tends to happen more through the journey of the overall "defeat the villain/get the Dragon Balls!" storyline, almost by happenstance. Although the 22nd TB is certainly very close to this regarding Tien, as the arc has a major focus on his behaviour and relationship with his master. But it's telling that Toriyama never felt the need to, say, explore the relationship between Blue and Yellow Launch, or Goku's feelings on being both an Earthling and a Saiyan, or Gohan's feelings on having two father figures (one of which was absent a lot), or Goku meeting Bardock/Gohan in Other World, stuff like that.

As for Bulma, she has a leg-up by being a super-rich CEO of Capsule Corp and a knack inventor, so she can be more naturally included by way of, say, creating new Saiyan armour for Goku and co., or providing convenient resources that would normally be WAY out of reach for Goku and Vegeta, like the space for them to train near the resort island at the start of Broly. She's INCREDIBLY important in the Android arc as she's the inventor of the time machine and repairs 16!

[Robo4900]

Toriyama was pretty much done with those characters after the 23rd Budoukai. I think that the Saiyan arc was a new beginning for him. The reunion at Roshi's place pretty much tells the audience how it's gonna be moving forward. You get the typical "written out of the show" dialogue about Lunch and Tenshinhan, with Yamcha nowhere to be found. Kuririn and Bulma will stick around, and now Gohan and Piccolo are added to the mix.

The problem is that Toriyama wouldn't commit to writing them out entirely, and so you have Yamcha and Tenshinhan still hanging around in the background when they mostly shouldn't be there, even though the focus has clearly shifted.

That's fair.

I hesitate to grant even an inch to any theory that the Saiyan arc is any kind of starting point for Dragon Ball (because inevitably that lends some amount of credence to people who skip to Z, and I hate that)... But yeah, looking at it that way, it does work as a soft reboot in terms of which characters are relevant from now on... I would at this point argue my long-held view that Dragon Ball essentially reboots itself between every major story arc, but I think I've probably overstated that at this point.

As for Lunch, I believe that Toriyama just dropped the character altogether. He probably just didn't particularly care for her. Plus with Chichi's return it may have been one too many women to write in his mind.

I don't want that to be true, but Toriyama's handling of female characters is godawful (primarily through the fact he just doesn't put many women in his stories), and that's probably pretty close to the truth. At this point in the rewatch, the last woman to join the cast was Lunch, and we won't see a woman join the cast again until Chichi shows up again. And then she's the last girl until Videl, all the way in the Boo arc.
Granted, most of Toriyama's women are great characters, but there are only four main/secondary characters in Dragon Ball's original run who are girls, one of whom is pretty terrible most of the time (much as Chichi has some great moments, most of the time, Toriyama just writes her as "the annoying nag who doesn't want Gohan to go save the world, even when literally everyone else -- especially Gohan -- wants him to go, and knows he's critical to the continued survival of the earth and its people." A pretty thin, unreasonable, annoyance of a character, if I'm to be honest. Which is especially annoying given how fun she was in the 23rd Tenkaichi. And IIRC there are a few time in the Cell arc where she shows some depth and personality beyond "the ragemonster who yells at Goku and Gohan")...
Then there's Lunch, who disappears at the same time as Chichi is introduced.
And Videl is a really, really late addition who gets all her personality punched out of her by Spopovich, and then never does anything story-relevant again (except for in Super/BOG, I guess, when they use the fact she's pregnant with Pan to give Goku the God powers).

... Anyway, I've gone into this before. Sorry to dredge it up again, but it is quite frustrating.

Huh. Was anyone else aware that Funi changed what confused Chaozu at the tournament?

In Japanese, he has trouble remembering which direction is right, and which is left. In the Funi dub, he's bad at counting.

In Japanese, Kuririn confuses Chaozu on which direction he's approaching from; in the Funi dub, he assaults him with simple maths equations that he stops the fight to think about.

I don't think Funimation changed it. As stated above, the math is in the next episode.

Oh. lol. My bad.

In my defense, I haven't seen the 22nd Tenkaichi in years, and my memory of it is hazy. I've probably only ever seen this arc twice?...

Well, I guess I look forward to watching on Wednesday onwards.

I think Toriyama's problem is that he often writes arcs where they provide no useful benefit but then includes them in the cast ANYWAY because he still considers them regular cast members. I don't think the Buu arc benefited at all from having Yamcha appear in it, while the comparatively weaker Mr. Satan was given his own character arc and is able to be naturally included thanks to Videl, causing interesting conflict and interactions.

And Toriyama's writing style is such that he doesn't really write stories to explore and deconstruct his characters; that tends to happen more through the journey of the overall "defeat the villain/get the Dragon Balls!" storyline, almost by happenstance. Although the 22nd TB is certainly very close to this regarding Tien, as the arc has a major focus on his behaviour and relationship with his master. But it's telling that Toriyama never felt the need to, say, explore the relationship between Blue and Yellow Launch, or Goku's feelings on being both an Earthling and a Saiyan, or Gohan's feelings on having two father figures (one of which was absent a lot), or Goku meeting Bardock/Gohan in Other World, stuff like that.

As for Bulma, she has a leg-up by being a super-rich CEO of Capsule Corp and a knack inventor, so she can be more naturally included by way of, say, creating new Saiyan armour for Goku and co., or providing convenient resources that would normally be WAY out of reach for Goku and Vegeta, like the space for them to train near the resort island at the start of Broly. She's INCREDIBLY important in the Android arc as she's the inventor of the time machine and repairs 16!

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The highlighted part in particular has been affecting Super real bad.

[Danfun64]

As for Lunch, I believe that Toriyama just dropped the character altogether. He probably just didn't particularly care for her. Plus with Chichi's return it may have been one too many women to write in his mind.

I don't want that to be true, but Toriyama's handling of female characters is godawful (primarily through the fact he just doesn't put many women in his stories), and that's probably pretty close to the truth. At this point in the rewatch, the last woman to join the cast was Lunch, and we won't see a woman join the cast again until Chichi shows up again. And then she's the last girl until Videl, all the way in the Boo arc.
Granted, most of Toriyama's women are great characters, but there are only four main/secondary characters in Dragon Ball's original run who are girls, one of whom is pretty terrible most of the time (much as Chichi has some great moments, most of the time, Toriyama just writes her as "the annoying nag who doesn't want Gohan to go save the world, even when literally everyone else -- especially Gohan -- wants him to go, and knows he's critical to the continued survival of the earth and its people." A pretty thin, unreasonable, annoyance of a character, if I'm to be honest. Which is especially annoying given how fun she was in the 23rd Tenkaichi. And IIRC there are a few time in the Cell arc where she shows some depth and personality beyond "the ragemonster who yells at Goku and Gohan")...
Then there's Lunch, who disappears at the same time as Chichi is introduced.
And Videl is a really, really late addition who gets all her personality punched out of her by Spopovich, and then never does anything story-relevant again (except for in Super/BOG, I guess, when they use the fact she's pregnant with Pan to give Goku the God powers).

... Anyway, I've gone into this before. Sorry to dredge it up again, but it is quite frustrating.

Bulma, Chi Chi, Launch, Videl...

You forgot about Android 18.

[Robo4900]

Bulma, Chi Chi, Launch, Videl...

You forgot about Android 18.

Ah, true. Can't believe I forgot her; she's one of my favourite characters in the franchise.

Still, in fairness, #18's role in the story is basically nil aside from the run of episodes from when she wakes up, to when she gets eaten by Cell.

And, in further fairness, that only takes the total number of women in the main/secondary/tertiary cast of the original run up to five, which -- given the immense size of the cast of Dragon Ball -- is pretty abysmal.

[Danfun64]

Does Pan count? xD

[Robo4900]

Does Pan count? xD

No; she's not a Toriyama-written main character. She does have a role in the Z epilogue, but she doesn't become a main character until GT, which was a Toei creation.

And since doing the end of Z, Toriyama hasn't come back to Pan at all. (Except maybe as a baby in Super? IDK)

[KBABZ]

Does Pan count? xD

Pan is interesting because of her potential. She's given a fair amount of focus in the EoZ Chapters to pair with Uub being the next generation Goku is thinking about alongside Goten and Trunks. I haven't seen Super but her name sure doesn't come up all that much in this part of the forum at least.

GT of course has her as a regular cast member, and thanks to her being part Saiyan she can fight alongside Trunks and Goku. She's mostly teenage Chi-Chi if SHE were whiny most of the time, but there are moments where she shows her heart and the episode with her in the desert is especially memorable. Similar to Videl though there's a lot of lost potential in the fact that Goku COULD be teaching her how to fight, especially with ki attacks, which would expand how much she can contribute to fighting, but as we know, that doesn't happen and she mostly puts up a fair fight and then gets captured or Goku steals the show again. She doesn't really get any moments to shine in this regard.

Oh and once we return to Earth with Baby, she's quite absent, although the scene with her and Goku at Chi-Chi's dinner table was very effective at putting her and Goku in the same shoes. Oh and also, Bulma here is very crucial to Baby's plans and even contributes a heartbreaking moment in the story.

GT Videl is spunky Chi-Chi.

[KBABZ]

I think Toriyama's problem is that he often writes arcs where they provide no useful benefit but then includes them in the cast ANYWAY because he still considers them regular cast members.

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The highlighted part in particular has been affecting Super real bad.

I think the best Dragon Ball stories are often the ones with a selective cast list. Pilaf, 21st TB, RRA, Saiyan and Namek stand out in particular (keeping in mind I'm referring to their manga/Kai iterations). The Broly movie too was great because it didn't needlessly bring back every single character, allowing the focus to be on those who are important to its story.

Compare this to Battle of Gods which is absolutely stuffed with characters who don't contribute anything and just... stand around. It worked in the Jump special because it was an inconsequential story focused on celebrating the franchise as a whole, but in a more consequential story there's little reason for them to be there. Another good example is (sorry) Sleeping Princess: Yamcha, Puar and Oolong didn't need to be there at all. This means that they sort of pop up less through good writing and more out of obligation, and it leaves Launch, an important new character, to have only two very short scenes to herself.

[Danfun64]

Another good example is (sorry) Sleeping Princess: Yamcha, Puar and Oolong didn't need to be there at all.

In that case, how would Oozaru Goku have reverted to normal?

[KBABZ]

Another good example is (sorry) Sleeping Princess: Yamcha, Puar and Oolong didn't need to be there at all.

In that case, how would Oozaru Goku have reverted to normal?

The Oozaru transformation didn't need to be there either, that felt like randomly cutting back to the end of the Pilaf Arc for 30 seconds and doesn't have any consequence to the plot at all. Lucifer certainly doesn't notice!

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Another good example is (sorry) Sleeping Princess: Yamcha, Puar and Oolong didn't need to be there at all.

In that case, how would Oozaru Goku have reverted to normal?

The Oozaru transformation didn't need to be there either, that felt like randomly cutting back to the end of the Pilaf Arc for 30 seconds and doesn't have any consequence to the plot at all. Lucifer certainly doesn't notice!

Yeah, and of course movie one didn't even have it although that was more because there was really no place logically for his going Oozaru to go what with Pilaf, Mai and Shu and thus everything at Pilaf's castle by extension being replaced with Gurumes and his cohorts thus why it got used in Sleeping Princess instead.

[KBABZ]

Yeah, and of course movie one didn't even have it although that was more because there was really no place logically for his going Oozaru to go what with Pilaf, Mai and Shu and thus everything at Pilaf's castle by extension being replaced with Gurumes and his cohorts thus why it got used in Sleeping Princess instead.

Correct. I feel like including Launch in the story had a lot of potential and I can see why they did it, but Oozaru was about as obligatorily included as Yamcha in the Buu arc.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Yeah, and of course movie one didn't even have it although that was more because there was really no place logically for his going Oozaru to go what with Pilaf, Mai and Shu and thus everything at Pilaf's castle by extension being replaced with Gurumes and his cohorts thus why it got used in Sleeping Princess instead.

Correct. I feel like including Launch in the story had a lot of potential and I can see why they did it, but Oozaru was about as obligatorily included as Yamcha in the Buu arc.

Indeed, and even though they did because it had been cut there due to the alternate aspect of Blood Rubies with retelling the first arc in an abridged form though ultimately i feel that while it was at least cool to see his Great Ape/Oozaru form show up in at least one of the films it didn't really have much bearing on the story overall. The stuff with Lunch was decent, though there was potential there for her to be more involved compared to the bits she does have while in her blonde bad girl form.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Episode 86 - It’s Decided!! The Eight Brave Men

A fun episode with some enjoyable fights and humour sprinkled in. From the get-go seeing Goku and King Chappa both come off as confident as they prepare to fight each other. It was a nice to see everyone's shock at the sleeves Goku had up his sleeve for this battle and adds value to the training he did out in the wild. The moments with Lunch demanding her prize money by threatening with her
shotgun and Goku choking from eating too much food was good humour. The latter was a nice addition as we haven't seen the consequences of Goku's crazy appetite yet. Interestingly Tien is continuously antagonized throughout this arc. His demand to the chef for a decent meal and necessitating Muten Roshi's involvement to break up an attempted fight between himself and Yamcha give him an incredibly foreboding presence, which is good for building up Goku's eventual final match with him. Topping it off was towards the end when Naul was seriously injured and it turns out Tien was the one who crippled him. The earlier fun of the fights is broken up and there is a sense of severity going into the next episode.

Episode 87 - Showdown!! Yamucha vs Tenshinhan

Like the last episode, there is gradual buildup of tension. The moment with Goku doing handstands as everyone waits for the matches was charming, and demonstrates the confidence he's trying to show after all the training he's done by himself. Tien remains a daunting presence, acting cocky and intimidating Yamcha. Interestingly this serves the idea of Tien taking Yamcha's place as Goku's previous worst enemy, who would later become a friend. More interestingly we see Chiaotzu's magic powers to change the numbers in the random selection process for the quarter finals. Goku's memory of facing Tien a few episodes prior adds to the ominous tone that is being built up around this character. The eventual fight between Tien and Yamcha was fun, and the choroegraphy was quite good with both showcasing great velocity.

Episode 88 - Go, Yamucha! The Dreadful Tenshinhan

We get some more great action sequences for Tien and Yamcha's fight. Tien shows great resilience against Yamcha's Wolf Fang Fist and dozens of kicks while mid air only building up strength. Yamcha has a good moment when he surprises everyone revealing he knows the Kamehameha, although this isn't enough to stop Tien in his tracks and only ends up backfiring. The moment where Yamcha gets knocked out is quite sombre but Puar's coming in to his aid was quite endearing as it shows how close their friendship is. The moment when everyone sees him at Papaya Hospital was also nice as it shows how far our heroes have come in their bond with him. There isn't a lot of funny moments in the episode but seeing Muten Roshi snooping around trying to conceal his identity as Jackie Chun was a neat addition. Overall this is one of those episodes which leaves you both apprehensive and intrigued for the upcoming matches.

Episode 89 - Be Afraid!! A Full Moon Grudge

There is some good humour in this episode. In the beginning we get a funny moment with Jackie Chun being asked by girls for autographs and offering kisses instead. Ironically it is Jackie Chun's opponent Wolf-Man that blames him for not being able to have a girlfriend and gets really aggressive. Although the moment where Wolf-Man is literally treated like a Dog to the extent of Roshi throwing him a bone that tricks him into running out of the arena was a bit much, especially when he didn't get much of a fight to begin with. For the most part a solid episode, but not one of the best in this arc.

Episode 90 - Nanana!! An Unexpected Dodonpa

Early on in this episode we get a good breather moment with Bulma and Goku's friends chilling out getting refreshments to juxtapose with the seriousness of Yamcha being in Papaya Hospital. For the rest of the episode's duration we get some good action sequences for Kuririn and Chaiotzu. There is some good choreography as they start off, and as they continue suspense is built by Chiaotzu's mysterious abilities. It was a rather well done emphasis on the idea that you should never underestimate your opponents based on their size and appearance considering the fact Chiaotzu is one of the least intimidating opponents any of our heroes have faced. To this end Kuririn, and Goku from the sidelines get shocked when Chiaotzu prepares to fire a Dodonpa. Without a doubt another episode that leaves a lot of anticipation for what's yet to come, especially with Kuririn fighting back with a Kamehameha.