“There is nothing to learn from Dragon Ball,” says Akira Toriyama’s editor, Kazuhiko Torishima

[LoganForkHands73]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

Toriyama really must be the greatest writer ever if he somehow wrote over 500 chapters, on top of countless other manga projects, and never included a single ongoing thematic concept.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know I am tempting fate and doing one of those unending discussions with ABED, but I think there ARE some books and media that seek to teach or impart knowledge with the heavy handedness of an anvil falling into your head, AND that Dragon Ball aint one of them. Saying that isnt akin to saying ALL MEDIA THAT TRIES TO TEACH SOMETHING ARE BORING.

You said that Torishima is saying learning is the antithesis of fun. There wasn't a whole lot of nuance with your statement.

Also, it's easy to end a discussion with me - don't reply.

I gotta admit you got me.

[Sadala Elite]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

And yet there is a unifying theme in his story.

And what is that unifying theme? You're just projecting.

[ABED]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

And yet there is a unifying theme in his story.

And what is that unifying theme? You're just projecting.

Self betterment. That isn't projecting, it's the element at play in the whole story.

[Sadala Elite]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

Toriyama really must be the greatest writer ever if he somehow wrote over 500 chapters, on top of countless other manga projects, and never included a single ongoing thematic concept.

Its actually easier to just write something without a theme in mind, quality be damned.

[ABED]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

Toriyama really must be the greatest writer ever if he somehow wrote over 500 chapters, on top of countless other manga projects, and never included a single ongoing thematic concept.

Its actually easier to just write something without a theme in mind, quality be damned.

It is, but themes arise naturally. Every story is about something whether intentional or not.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Toriyama probably never consciously set out to establish a theme in Dragon Ball. The theme probably just came about naturally. But there's no denying that there's a central theme in Dragon Ball (among other themes).

I remember Toriyama in an interview said something along the lines of "I just wanted to write a story that young boys would enjoy and be entertained by".

[Melee_Sovereign]

Heres some useful advice, never put more thought into something than the person who created it.

That sounds like absolutely terrible advice. On top of that, you can never really know in detail what someone's thoughts were when writing a story.

[Dr. Casey]

Saying there's no substance at all, the end, seems like a bit of an overstatement to me. I'll copy and paste something that I once wrote elsewhere.

But sometimes these terms just come across as a bit... reductive. They don't feel to me like a good representation of the anime/videogame/whatever, and in many cases seem to deny it some of the credit that it deserves.

Like whenever people describe an anime or movie or whatever as being 'empty calories,' I sometimes think "If that was really and truly all that it is, wouldn't you find it vapid and mind-numbing to the point of being unenjoyable?" There has to be some kind of genuine, legitimate quality to something in order to enjoy it. Maybe the dialogue is witty, maybe there's one or two characters with thoughtful and well-done character arcs. "It's complete drivel in every possible way but it's fun!" seems reductive to me and lacking in nuance. There has to be some kind of honest quality there, even in things that are simple and straightforward, to keep it from just being banal and headache-inducing.

I'm not saying that people need to exaggerate, or make anything out to be more than what it is. It's just... can't there be some kind of middle ground between "deeply intellectually stimulating" and "pure, utter mindlessness without the first shred of legitimate quality"? It seems, at risk of overusing the word, reductive to say that anything that isn't high literature has zero redeeming qualities whatsoever besides fun factor. There's plenty of stories that are in the vast gulf separating those two extremes, that are simple and straightforward but adhere to a baseline level of intelligence (to the extent that it doesn't come across as outright stupid or make your brain hurt from the vapidity - which, yes, is something that very much can happen with stories that really are nothing but empty calories) and which have plenty of legitimate qualities and good points.

As for how this applies to Dragon Ball in particular, there's a sort of intrinsic poignancy to stories that feature timeskips and cover long periods of time. Many characters have nice character development and character arcs. The characters generally come across as believable human beings that feel like real people; their psychology isn't usually explored in any great depth, obviously, since this isn't that type of story, but the characters almost never feel plastic, artificial, or alien to me. The fights and the action almost always involve some kind of character drama, and personal stakes beyond the safety of the city/planet/universe.

Dragon Ball is a simple story beyond any doubt whatsoever, but all the same, there's a gradient to be had, and a spectrum which has many points between "Complex, sophisticated story that really blows your mind" and "completely mindless drivel bankrupt of any legitimate qualities at all." The latter space would be occupied more by the Z movies or something (which I do enjoy in small doses, but the lack of any meaningful mental stimulation gives me a bit of a headache and makes me feel like I'm wasting my day far quicker than the main series could ever hope to do; four episodes of Dragon Ball would definitely leave me feeling better than consecutively watching two of the films).

[jjgp1112]

"There is no such thing as theme in my work" - Toriyama

Toriyama really must be the greatest writer ever if he somehow wrote over 500 chapters, on top of countless other manga projects, and never included a single ongoing thematic concept.

Thisn't quite the same thing but Stephen King has said he's written most of his books with no actual theme in mind. However, he says that he'll find something recurring in the revision process and strengthen it in subsequent drafts until it is the theme. But still, he found that theme isn't that important.

[ABED]

I've read "On Writing" as well and I don't recall that last part. If it weren't that important why would he go back and strengthen the thematic through line in subsequent drafts.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It would be very hard to write a story without any themes, because themes are a product of the reader's interpretation, although an author can still write with them in mind. In school I came up with my own themes for King Lear that weren't mentioned in the textbook and the teacher didn't tell us were there, but I backed them up with examples so I got marks for it. Dragon Ball, while simple has a lot of characters, world building and lore that it's impossible not to be exposed to and draw our own interpretations of their relevance, and it's a linear story, which necessitates development and progression. There's no way to justify saying it's all just dumb fun and stuff that's there for the sake of being there. Whether Toriyama intended it or not there are reasons you can argue that events in the series play out the way they do.

[Izanagi]

The funny thing about that quote is that Toriyama said the exact same thing and they're not wrong.

People feel guilty when they invest in a kids show like Dragon Ball in their adulthood. So they make these excuses that there are some deep meaning to every arc or any meaningful character development.

However there really wasn't. And it's OK to like Dragon Ball as an adult. Not everything has to be deep, or try to educate you on some obscure topic. It can be mindless fun, which Dragon Ball at its core has always been. You don't have to make up stuff that was never there in the first place.

[ABED]

It's not particularly deep to point out there's a central idea running through a story.

[Dr. Casey]

People feel guilty when they invest in a kids show like Dragon Ball in their adulthood. So they make these excuses that there are some deep meaning to every arc or any meaningful character development.

Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Krillin, Bulma, and a handful of others don't change or develop?

I get that people can easily make Dragon Ball out to be more than it is, but I don't see any reason to go in the opposite direction and deliberately make it out to be less than it is. It can be a simple, straightforward, and somewhat shallow story and still contain character development.

[Sadala Elite]

People feel guilty when they invest in a kids show like Dragon Ball in their adulthood. So they make these excuses that there are some deep meaning to every arc or any meaningful character development.

Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Krillin, Bulma, and a handful of others don't change or develop?

I get that people can easily make Dragon Ball out to be more than it is, but I don't see any reason to go in the opposite direction and deliberately make it out to be less than it is. It can be a simple, straightforward, and somewhat shallow story and still contain character development.

You're mostly right, though really, the only characters in the entire franchise to go through any noteworthy amount of character development in more than one saga are Vegeta, Bulma and to a lesser extent Goku himself. Most of the franchise's cast are either hollow (Most movie and filler villains), underwritten & neglected (like Piccolo), or both (like Jiren).

Dragonball on the whole doesn't really have noteworthy character writing, even compared to a lot of other Shonen.

[ABED]

There's more to characters than character development, there's memorable well defined characters with personalities. DB has that in spades.

[Sadala Elite]

There's more to characters than character development, there's memorable well defined characters with personalities. DB has that in spades.

Only about a fraction of the franchise's cast can be given even that complement. Most the DB cast are nothing characters.

[DBZAOTA482]

The funny thing about that quote is that Toriyama said the exact same thing and they're not wrong.

Author's intent and what they actually wrote are two different things. Also, a story doesn't need to be particularly deep to have central themes going on or characters with personality.

If Dragon Ball was really just mindless entertainment with no real objective merit then I'm pretty sure it wouldn't stand the test of time for over two decades after the original series had ended.

[ABED]

There's more to characters than character development, there's memorable well defined characters with personalities. DB has that in spades.

Only about a fraction of the franchise's cast can be given even that complement. Most the DB cast are nothing characters.

Why are you here if you believe that?