Is it fair to say that Dragon Ball is no longer marketed to kids in North America?

[JulieYBM]

It's plenty easy to make psychological judgments based off of the discussions we have on forums. It's why it's so frustrating for me, a queer gal, to post on a forum where people think the Ess-Jay-Dubyas are coming to ruin their shitty Japanese children's cartoon, where people think real experiences don't influence how we create and consume media and where people--in other threads--try to gaslight and mansplain women offering banally cited commentary on fandom.

I guess that last thing was directed at me lol. That’s me, manspreader-in-chief. I’ll do it again: you used “banally” wrong.

No but I suppose I agree with you that some of us are more inclined to express our political leanings on public forums like this, and such people can be more easily “psychoanalyzed” as you said, for their general worldviews. But that’s not really what the other poster or I meant by psychoanalyze. If you check out Kunzait’s long post, you’ll see he more or less determined that most of this community is incompetent to analyze “shonen” because of something or other. I don’t think the argument really deserves my reproducing it here so go take a look at it if you like.

adjective. devoid of freshness or originality; hackneyed; trite: a banal and sophomoric treatment of courage on the frontier.

Sorry honey, I used it right. I was self-deprecating.

[Kunzait_83]

Here’s what you are doing, from my perspective. Because of your apparently extensive knowledge of media, high brow, low brow, everything in between, you are psychoanalyzing “the majority of the people here” which may or may not be valid...

I've noted this a few times in other threads, but my "psychoanalysis" of the community is NOT simply based purely on my reading people's posts solely on just the forum itself. Once upon a time, I used to be pretty extensively involved with the community off the forums as well, and for a good number of years I'd spoken with and gotten to know extensively a vast, sizable number of some of the most dedicated regulars of this place, along with a whole number of off/on semi-regulars as well, via everything from extensive Skype chats, Private Messages, Instant Messenger and IRC convos, etc.

This went on for well over seven years, at least before I took an extended absence from this place. So that's what my "analysis" is based around: seven consecutive years of extremely extensive off-site interaction getting to know quite well a vast and broad variety of users here, from marquee names to plenty of randos in between.

Whether people who are more "casual" visitors of this site realize it or not, there is indeed a whole culture of sorts, a set of views and assumptions based around a specific and limited, hyper-focused media awareness (centered primarily if not almost solely on children's media), that's endemic within a sizable portion of the "core" Kanzenshuu userbase. That's what my various posts on this topic have been referring to right along.

but it comes off as judging them as uncultured/uncivilized. Or at the very least, it comes off as you flexing on all us rubes.

I think that that sort of hyper defensiveness is, in and of itself, a pretty big part of the problem with discussions like this, and it makes trying to give criticism of even the most constructive kind almost borderline impossible at times when the most bad-faith interpretation of every point of criticism is assumed up front. In most contexts, including this one, it usually seems centered around the basic feeling like "Are you saying you're better than me? Is that what you're saying? You aren't better than me!"

No. That ISN'T what I'm saying. I'm saying that much of - not the ENTIRETY of, but much of - this community has a very obvious and deeply seated problem that hobbles its ability to more effectively and accurately discuss or engage with creative media like TV, film, etc. without falling down any number of horribly distorted rabbit holes that are in no way indicative of the reality behind most of these works.

That I am aware of this problem and am speaking out frankly about it does NOT in ANY remote way mean that I think of myself as "superior" in any capacity to anyone here. If I wanted to "flex" on people or paint myself as somehow "better than thou" or whatever... my posts would IN NO WAY read the way that they do, as there are any NUMBER of better, infinitely more direct ways that I could easily communicate that point better.

I suppose there’s a valid point to be made somewhere in there, but you need to try harder to not make it sound like “I’m glad I’m not like thou simpletons” so that your point isn’t lost on us.

I'm not sure if anyone's picked up on this or not yet, but I'm kind of something of an incredibly blunt and direct person to my very core. Passive aggressive insinuation and snide, tiptoeing implications are SO far in the diametric exact opposite direction of my very nature as a person that its frankly absurd for anyone who's known me longer than a couple days (at most, if that) to make the assumption that that's how I normally communicate almost ANY thoughts that I have.

So once again, if I wanted to convey the message that "I'm better/superior to all you filthy plebs" or whatever, then... I'd simply come right out and SAY that directly in no uncertain terms. Hell, there are any NUMBER of ways and have long, long for years/decades now been a MYRIAD of wide open opportunities for me to have done exactly that if that was all that I was trying to do.

I've not only not done or taken any of them, but frankly the fact that its taken me THIS many years (well over a decade now) to come out and talk about this topic more openly on here, when this was something I started noticing as far back as fucking 2006 or whatnot (way back when Bush was still in office for context) should kind of send the message quite clearly that this is a topic that I've in NO WAY approached opening up on here lightly, and have for YEARS now considered deeply other people's feelings on this subject.

Unfortunately, as I thought from the beginning, people are INCREDIBLY hyper-sensitive about this type of thing and no matter how gently, politely, constructively, and delicately I can possibly phrase or frame it, people will instinctively assume the worst/most bad faith framework of the topic and of my intentions, and immediately leap into defensive mode.

That type of defensiveness should make it pretty clear partly why its taken me the better part of a decade to try and open up the lid off of this can of worms. My aim was NEVER to hurt or insult anyone, but to get people to actually take an honest, sobering look at a real community-wide problem that's been lurking at the heart of why a LOT of key discussions throughout the history of this community has long been riddled with bad assumptions and distorted framing about art that betrays an incredibly limited understanding of basic media literacy, even well beyond what is "normal" for a lot of average folks.

Obviously the average person isn't out there reading Kant and Camus and whatnot... but the average person's baseline understanding and framing of the high points in creative media isn't also centered around mainly/solely things like Pixar and the Cartoon Network lineup and whatnot. The reality for most average people is obviously somewhere in the middle: and the bulk of this community has demonstrated to me, time and time and time and time again going back ages ago now, that its typical baseline for such things is nowhere even REMOTELY near that middle, average territory.

Dealing exclusively in the highest of high brow is certainly far from normal obviously... but at the same time, so is dealing and zeroing in on exclusively (or close to it) stuff that's made primarily to the level of 6 to 10 year olds. And frankly the latter extreme has FAR more glaring and troublesome pitfalls than does the former. To put it mildly.

You haven’t contributed here as much as you used to, so I can understand not feeling the social pressure to give critiques politely. For real though, your rant reads like a shitpost, so I’m blocked from even beginning to give it a sympathetic reading.

I haven't contributed as much here in more recent years for the same exact reason why I have zero interest whatsoever in "flexing on the plebs" with my "superior knowledge" as you're asserting I am: because I'm a 36 year old grown-ass fucking man with real life responsibilities and concerns that take MASSIVE priority over my discussing a 30+ year old children's kung fu fantasy cartoon on the internet.

However that being said, the fact that I've long gotten to know and become close with and gotten to care about a lot of folks who've contributed to this site over the years functions as a LOT of the reason for why I A) still bother to post here at all to begin with and B) why I care even the tiniest bit enough to even DISCUSS this kind of topic in this level of depth at all in the first place.

At this point I have zero idea what more I can possibly say or demonstrate to convince people that I'm genuinely trying to shed light on and constructively break down what I've long seen as a real and serious problem with the nature of the discourse (as it pertains to broader media awareness and assumptions outside of just DB) in this place, rather than snobbishly look down my nose at all the worthless peons below me or whatever. I've put forth my thoughts on these matters as plainly, directly, respectfully, and thoughtfully as I can possibly think to construct them.

And yes, I'm also well aware that I probably should've just made this topic its own thread like, a LOOOOOOOOOOONG-ass time ago. Again, the fact that I'm a 30-something year old adult with tons of shit going on in my personal life functions as a lot of the reason for why I haven't done that yet, as I'd like to actually take the proper time and space to delve into this in as thorough and nuanced a way as possible within a dedicated thread.

[Locust]

At this point I have zero idea what more I can possibly say or demonstrate to convince people that I'm genuinely trying to shed light on and constructively break down what I've long seen as a real and serious problem with the nature of the discourse (as it pertains to broader media awareness and assumptions outside of just DB) in this place, rather than snobbishly look down my nose at all the worthless peons below me or whatever. I've put forth my thoughts on these matters as plainly, directly, respectfully, and thoughtfully as I can possibly think to construct them.

For what it's worth - and it's probably not worth all that much - I got what you were saying

I found it blunt, but I didn't think you were implying that "look at me I'm just oh so much better and smarter than y'all" - I obviously haven't been around this forum for as long as some of you, so I can't really make a judgement on any of the posters here.
However I do love doing media analyses and such, and in other forums, sites like letterboxd - yeah I've seen a lot of what you talk about and it CAN be frustrating.

[JulieYBM]

Christ, I've been on this forum since I was fifteen. Half my fucking life.

*turns into dust and blows away*

[GhostEmperorX]

Reminder: Japan doesn't have the same puritanical culture that we did in the West. The idea that kids can't handle realistic consequences isn't a tradition there like it is here, hence why children's cartoons in Japan are perfectly fine with showing graphic injuries and sexualization, whereas children's cartoons in America for the longest time took place in ultra-escapist fantasy lands where nothing bad ever really happened besides comically mean characters and bad luck.

You’re right, this seems like a uniquely American problem. Not even European countries or anywhere else in the world (aside maybe Canada) were like this.

[Planetnamek]

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

IMO, that's a shame for Dragon Ball, which is inherently a kids' show, but it is what it is. In fairness, they have tried in the past, as recently as Kai 1.0, to great success (despite what certain "NO. BAD CENSORSHIP!!! AHHH!!"-minded people will tell you), but I'm not sure American TV is interested in anime; they want more Teen Titans Go-alikes, so Dragon Ball ends up having to sit with the other anime on Adult Swim.

So... Would be nice if Funi tried to expand out more into kids' audiences, but probably to do that, they'd have to get Dragon Ball on Netflix or something, and I hear Toei USA are quite awkward about streaming licenses, and Netflix and Funi are kind of trying to compete in the anime space anyway (one of many reasons I personally think Netflix should pick up Ocean Kai; Netflix could get a slice of the Dragon Ball pie in the UK and Canada, at least, and get some kids hooked on Dragon Ball), so I think for now, in America, Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

Streaming is turning this all around a little (Clone Wars and Young Justice both got revived on Netflix, and now Clone Wars has come back again, on Disney+, so action cartoons aren't totally dead), but I don't think any Dragon Ball is streaming in North America outside of FuniNow, except for subbed Super on Crunchyroll.

Yeah that's why we got the abomination that is Thundercats Roar, because out of touch suits think that's what kids want, i've never seen a franchise get so thoroughly bastardized(aside from maybe those dreadful Fantastic Beasts films), after how awesome the sadly short-lived 2011 series was(And I will NEVER forgive CN for cancelling the show just cause the toys didn't sell that well, the same logic they used to kill off Beware the Batman and Green Lantern and Young Justice, thankfully the latter finally came back) this was like the ultimate kick in the nads, my only consolation is that it seems to have failed miserably(and TTG itself isn't doing nearly as well in the ratings as it used to), so hopefully this era of TTG rip-offs is done with.

I have mixed feelings about DB being marketed exclusively towards adults now, on the one hand I get it, more disposable income and loyalty and whatnot. On the other hand focusing too much on one group can lead to diminishing returns as D.C. and Marvel found out in the 90s as them exclusively aiming comics towards adults in their 30s(and mostly straight guys at that) led to the comics industry crashing and almost dying, granted that probably won't likely happen with DB(at least not for a LONG time) but it's worth keeping in mind.

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

That's because American kids have become so sheltered that everyone involved would have to waste countless hours censoring everything. Action would have to be toned down, certain characters would have to be covered up, Some of the dialogue would have to be changed, etc. It just wouldn't be worth it.

I don't know about that, the new She-Ra at least has stuff that would've never gotten allowed on TV networks during DBZ's heyday(the main character getting into a lesbian relationship at the end for one thing)

Even channels like Nick became more daring, I was surprised with some of the stuff in the 2012 TMNT series, including multiple onscreen depictions of death.

Also I don't believe American kids are that sheltered, especially given how many 12-year olds regularly play M-rated games like COD and GTA Online these days.

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

...and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

That's something that I hate with a passion. In the US "Adult animation" is a joke. Literally shows like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Avatar, etc, tell more mature, complex, interesting, and more "Adult" stories than anything ever shat out of something like Family Guy.

Almost every time some new "Adult cartoon" comes out, it's the same crap. Either some South Park or Family Guy rip-off, that is cheaply made, and only exists to be as crude and offensive as possible for the sake of being crude and offensive. To these writers and directors, "Adult" to them defaults to "Sex, drugs, guns, swearing and violence!1!1!!". Ironically they end up making the shows even more childish than an episode of Spongebob. 90% of the time it's all the same lazy sleazy crap. Too many to list.

Not all adult cartoons are like that, you do get ones that try to be different like Chozen and Moonbeam City, unfortunately those generally don't last long. So far the longest lasting adult cartoons that aren't trying to be like Family Guy(which I love for its dark humor and it does have some genuinely moving episodes) aside from King of the Hill and Bob's Burgers(which i'm admittedly not a fan, mostly because it features women voiced by men and that REALLY bugs the crap out of me, and with certain voice-actors like Mike Henry saying they won't voice black characters like Cleveland anymore, i'm hoping we can get a similar commitment from the VAs of BB, as I just cannot take Linda and Tina seriously as characters with those horrible voices) are Big Mouth(which while crude does explore important territory with kids going through puberty and the confusing hormones and feelings that go along with it) and F is for Family(which has the most profanity of any of the adult cartoons i've seen, but also has genuinely well-written and moving storylines that you don't typically see in those kinds of shows and it also tackles the issues of the time-period it's set in-the mid 70s, it's kind of like an animated version of Mad Men with it's attention to period detail and its inner examinations of characters) but shows like that are few and far between, Bless the Harts and Duncanville are more in that KOTH style and they've both been renewed for a 2nd season so hopefully they stick around for a decent length of time, but given FOX's track record of screwing over shows(including the criminally underrated Napoleon Dynamite animated series) i'm still concerned.

I don't find Family Guy childish at all, I do however find South Park childish, though not for the adult stuff and moreso for Matt and Trey's frankly kind of problematic overall message that "caring about anything is stupid!" and "both sides are evil!", them being libertarians really bled into the show in some seriously cringe-worthy moments(like defending a Tobacco company and also going into borderline alt-right territory at times).

Never cared for Adventure Time myself, it's a case of show that was just too weird for me to latch onto. I was highly impressed with Nick's 2012 TMNT series though, I was surprised at how good the storylines were(not quite as good as the 2003 4kids series, but pretty damn close at times).

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Spoiler:

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

IMO, that's a shame for Dragon Ball, which is inherently a kids' show, but it is what it is. In fairness, they have tried in the past, as recently as Kai 1.0, to great success (despite what certain "NO. BAD CENSORSHIP!!! AHHH!!"-minded people will tell you), but I'm not sure American TV is interested in anime; they want more Teen Titans Go-alikes, so Dragon Ball ends up having to sit with the other anime on Adult Swim.

So... Would be nice if Funi tried to expand out more into kids' audiences, but probably to do that, they'd have to get Dragon Ball on Netflix or something, and I hear Toei USA are quite awkward about streaming licenses, and Netflix and Funi are kind of trying to compete in the anime space anyway (one of many reasons I personally think Netflix should pick up Ocean Kai; Netflix could get a slice of the Dragon Ball pie in the UK and Canada, at least, and get some kids hooked on Dragon Ball), so I think for now, in America, Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

Streaming is turning this all around a little (Clone Wars and Young Justice both got revived on Netflix, and now Clone Wars has come back again, on Disney+, so action cartoons aren't totally dead), but I don't think any Dragon Ball is streaming in North America outside of FuniNow, except for subbed Super on Crunchyroll.

Yeah that's why we got the abomination that is Thundercats Roar, because out of touch suits think that's what kids want, i've never seen a franchise get so thoroughly bastardized(aside from maybe those dreadful Fantastic Beasts films), after how awesome the sadly short-lived 2011 series was(And I will NEVER forgive CN for cancelling the show just cause the toys didn't sell that well, the same logic they used to kill off Beware the Batman and Green Lantern and Young Justice, thankfully the latter finally came back) this was like the ultimate kick in the nads, my only consolation is that it seems to have failed miserably(and TTG itself isn't doing nearly as well in the ratings as it used to), so hopefully this era of TTG rip-offs is done with.

I have mixed feelings about DB being marketed exclusively towards adults now, on the one hand I get it, more disposable income and loyalty and whatnot. On the other hand focusing too much on one group can lead to diminishing returns as D.C. and Marvel found out in the 90s as them exclusively aiming comics towards adults in their 30s(and mostly straight guys at that) led to the comics industry crashing and almost dying, granted that probably won't likely happen with DB(at least not for a LONG time) but it's worth keeping in mind.

These days, Funimation doesn't tend to market to anyone outside their core anime audience of teens and young adults.

Dragon Ball is a victim of poor circumstances for kids' action cartoons and anime, where the networks just aren't interested, so it's just not allowed to exist in that space anymore.

That's because American kids have become so sheltered that everyone involved would have to waste countless hours censoring everything. Action would have to be toned down, certain characters would have to be covered up, Some of the dialogue would have to be changed, etc. It just wouldn't be worth it.

I don't know about that, the new She-Ra at least has stuff that would've never gotten allowed on TV networks during DBZ's heyday(the main character getting into a lesbian relationship at the end for one thing)

Even channels like Nick became more daring, I was surprised with some of the stuff in the 2012 TMNT series, including multiple onscreen depictions of death.

Also I don't believe American kids are that sheltered, especially given how many 12-year olds regularly play M-rated games like COD and GTA Online these days.

I'll say the same for the 2002 revival series of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, that was a freaking awesome show i had really enjoyed when it was initially airing that sadly got cancelled after the second season mostly because of poor toy sales in a very similar fashion as Thundecats 2011. Mattel and Cartoon Network really shot themselves in the foot there on that one. It's really interesting how both played out, having been revivals of popular '80s action/fantasy/sci fi cartoons that suffered similar fates of ending in cancellation with very similar circumstances. It's a shame too because they showed how new shows based on old properties could be done in a more grown up fashion compared to the source series. Moreso with the 2002 He-Man, which really had a more action-y and serious edge compared to the old Filmation series that was clearly aimed toward much younger audiences.

[Planetnamek]

Yeah I fondly remember the 2002 series of He-Man, that was my first exposure to the character, never knew it also got cancelled due to low toy sales, guess CN's been beating that dead-horse of an excuse into the ground for quite awhile eh?

When I think of Anime aimed squarely at adults(aside from Hentai) I think of stuff like Elfen Lied(Which only aired in Japan on Satellite TV) which ironically was more popular in America, probably because of that whole "mature equals lots of violence and sex" attitude many people here have as EL fits into that category pretty nicely even if it does also have a compelling story.

The death of saturday morning cartoons seemed to be the death of aiming anime towards kids.

I definitely wouldn't be too sure about letting a six or seven-year old watch DB or DBZ uncensored, I hear all these adults saying how they watched R-rated movies like Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th as kids and i'm like "how?", I didn't get to watch any R-rated movies until I was 12 and even then it was a few more years before I could see all the ones I wanted to.

Since we’re on the subject of MPAA ratings, I was actually pretty surprised back when Dragonball Evolution was given a PG rating. Even in 2009, a PG-13 was the default rating for those kinds of movies, so I assumed that would’ve applied to DBE as well, especially since the trailer seemed to emphasize the action, to the point where Bulma appeared to be a gun toting action hero. Of course, the movie would’ve been bad regardless, but Fox must’ve agreed that Dragon Ball is strictly kid’s stuff, if they didn’t even bother shooting for a PG-13.

I too was surprised that Evolution got away with a PG-13 rating(then again that Speed Racer movie featured a guy getting killed by piranhas and the word "shit" yet it also got a PG rating), especially with that scene of Goku using literal dead bodies to get over lava.

Since we’re on the subject of MPAA ratings, I was actually pretty surprised back when Dragonball Evolution was given a PG rating. Even in 2009, a PG-13 was the default rating for those kinds of movies, so I assumed that would’ve applied to DBE as well, especially since the trailer seemed to emphasize the action, to the point where Bulma appeared to be a gun toting action hero. Of course, the movie would’ve been bad regardless, but Fox must’ve agreed that Dragon Ball is strictly kid’s stuff, if they didn’t even bother shooting for a PG-13.

Superman Returns was shooting for a PG rating in 2006 but still got stuck with a PG-13. The MPAA makes no sense.

Hell, a PG could have been a mandate from Shueisha for all we know.

Superman Returns wouldn't have done any better with a PG rating, I can assure you no kid would've wanted to see a movie that damn boring.

the first Star Wars originally got a G rating from the MPAA surprisingly enough, but George Lucas was worried people would be turned off by thinking it was a kids movie, so he encouraged them to re-rate it PG(And I think he added some stuff to make sure it got that rating, like Obi-Wan's death)

MPAA ratings are arbitrary. The difference between a PG-13 and an R can be a matter of as little as a few frames or an impassioned speech to the board members that convinces them revise their rating.

It's especially weird when it comes to sexuality and nudity in M-rated games, sometimes it's stuff that could've easily got into a PG-13 movie no problem, other times it's full on frontal nudity and somewhat graphic sex scenes, the ESRB makes very little sense.

One another adult animated series that isn't like Family Guy that I forgot to mention-Bojack Horseman, which is essentially a very in-depth study on depression and how it affects you and those around you, i've often heard the show compared to Californication and I can see why, it's one of the most powerful and heart-wrenching shows i've ever seen.

Once again, and I know I'm a broken record about this, but I think its long been beyond clear and fair to say that most of this forum as a broader collective has mostly ZERO clue how to engage with or judge a work that ISN'T made for children in any way, and most of this community simply doesn't fundamentally understand what really separates something that's written down to a child's level versus something written for an actual mature adult audience.

And no, its not because most folks in this community are somehow stupid or unintelligent. Not at all. Rather its simply due to many, many, many years of a continued lack of significant cumulative experience and time spent really delving all that deep into exploring and immersing yourselves in a great deal of more challenging adult media that's out there, and too much time overall spent wallowing and marinating in children's entertainment.

Not because they're unintelligent but because I'm more cultured than they are. Most adults just watch sports and porn and the occasional action movie you know. If people want to make a hobby out of analyzing a medium not in those categories, regardless of how shitty it is, that's cool, no? And media "for adults" is just as shitty and uncultured as children's media. If your thesis is that honing in exclusively on shonen anime from one's childhood, or media with similar themes, makes you less civilized, cool, but who cares.

I wouldn't say that's true for most adults, there's plenty of people like me that find sports incredibly dull(and honestly that's one thing delayed by COVID that I do not miss at all) and while I do enjoy action and horror films, i'm also not above enjoying romantic comedies. I do agree that one should not make assumptions that most people on here mostly consume exclusively children's media(though as people like Moviebob will tell you, there's nothing at all wrong with an adult watching stuff like the new She-Ra)..

[ArmenianPepsi]

....Big Mouth(which while crude does explore important territory with kids going through puberty and the confusing hormones and feelings that go along with it)

I could never really get into Big Mouth, I tried giving it a watch and I just felt terribly uncomfortable the entire time, and I'm 19, not too far removed from the kind of adolescences that compose the main cast and still able to vividly remember some of the themes and experiences that the show touches on. Though if you enjoy it I wont knock you, I guess it's just personal taste.

....F is for Family(which has the most profanity of any of the adult cartoons i've seen, but also has genuinely well-written and moving storylines that you don't typically see in those kinds of shows and it also tackles the issues of the time-period it's set in-the mid 70s, it's kind of like an animated version of Mad Men with it's attention to period detail and its inner examinations of characters)

You have me there, F is For Family was a pretty good show. Too bad that a good show like it has to share the same space as something as bottom of the barrel as Paradise PD.

[Planetnamek]

....Big Mouth(which while crude does explore important territory with kids going through puberty and the confusing hormones and feelings that go along with it)

I could never really get into Big Mouth, I tried giving it a watch and I just felt terribly uncomfortable the entire time, and I'm 19, not too far removed from the kind of adolescences that compose the main cast and still able to vividly remember some of the themes and experiences that the show touches on. Though if you enjoy it I wont knock you, I guess it's just personal taste.

....F is for Family(which has the most profanity of any of the adult cartoons i've seen, but also has genuinely well-written and moving storylines that you don't typically see in those kinds of shows and it also tackles the issues of the time-period it's set in-the mid 70s, it's kind of like an animated version of Mad Men with it's attention to period detail and its inner examinations of characters)

You have me there, F is For Family was a pretty good show. Too bad that a good show like it has to share the same space as something as bottom of the barrel as Paradise PD.

I LOVE Paradise PD myself, cause i'm a sucker for dark fucked up humor(also love Brickleberry for that reason) but I totally get why people hate it with a passion. Personally I laughed harder at that show in season 2 then I did anything else so far this year.

Big Mouth definitely is not for everyone, but i'm so happy that the show is tackling LGBTQ issues that kids today are facing and doing it in a really creative and unique way, i actually learned a lot of stuff from that show(I.E. certain methods of birth control, different types of sexualities).

[DBZAOTA482]

Dubbing companies decided to stop messing with the source material with edits.


Dragon Ball uncut is more suitable for young teens and adults by American standards.

[Robo4900]

And I will NEVER forgive CN for cancelling the show just cause the toys didn't sell that well, the same logic they used to kill off Beware the Batman and Green Lantern and Young Justice, thankfully the latter finally came back

I'm with you on most of your post, but toy sales is 99% of how shows like that make their money. If the toys aren't selling well, the show doesn't make money, so they can't continue it.

Though, Young Justice wasn't cancelled for poor toy sales, its cancellation was due to something far weirder; Mattel, the company that made the show's toys, saw that a large proportion of the toy sales were to girls, and the numbers told them that toy sales to girls are worth less money than toy sales to boys, so they cancelled the toy line, because statistically it was less likely to make as much money as another show that has a larger proportion of boys buying the toys.
So, without Mattel providing a toy line, there simply wasn't any money to make the show with, so it had to be cancelled.

[Planetnamek]

And I will NEVER forgive CN for cancelling the show just cause the toys didn't sell that well, the same logic they used to kill off Beware the Batman and Green Lantern and Young Justice, thankfully the latter finally came back

I'm with you on most of your post, but toy sales is 99% of how shows like that make their money. If the toys aren't selling well, the show doesn't make money, so they can't continue it.

Though, Young Justice wasn't cancelled for poor toy sales, its cancellation was due to something far weirder; Mattel, the company that made the show's toys, saw that a large proportion of the toy sales were to girls, and the numbers told them that toy sales to girls are worth less money than toy sales to boys, so they cancelled the toy line, because statistically it was less likely to make as much money as another show that has a larger proportion of boys buying the toys.
So, without Mattel providing a toy line, there simply wasn't any money to make the show with, so it had to be cancelled.

I don't know that that's true for almost all kids animated shows though, but thanks for reminding me of Mattel's blatantly sexist bullshit "boys club" attitude

[AlexSketchy04]

What even constitutes an adult anime/manga series in Japan, outside of hentai?

...and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

That's something that I hate with a passion. In the US "Adult animation" is a joke. Literally shows like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Avatar, etc, tell more mature, complex, interesting, and more "Adult" stories than anything ever shat out of something like Family Guy.

Almost every time some new "Adult cartoon" comes out, it's the same crap. Either some South Park or Family Guy rip-off, that is cheaply made, and only exists to be as crude and offensive as possible for the sake of being crude and offensive. To these writers and directors, "Adult" to them defaults to "Sex, drugs, guns, swearing and violence!1!1!!". Ironically they end up making the shows even more childish than an episode of Spongebob. 90% of the time it's all the same lazy sleazy crap. Too many to list.

Kids shows do better than adult animation because they are limited, and have regulations on what they can/cannot do, so they try an intelligent way to sneak stuff past S&P, and surprisingly, their adult jokes and innuendos are way funnier than adult cartoon jokes

[Planetnamek]

...and it was unfortunate that being over-the-top and ironically super-childish with violence, crudeness, and sexuality was the only way anyone could take it seriously for the longest time (like, say, Fritz the Cat).

That's something that I hate with a passion. In the US "Adult animation" is a joke. Literally shows like Adventure Time, Regular Show, Avatar, etc, tell more mature, complex, interesting, and more "Adult" stories than anything ever shat out of something like Family Guy.

Almost every time some new "Adult cartoon" comes out, it's the same crap. Either some South Park or Family Guy rip-off, that is cheaply made, and only exists to be as crude and offensive as possible for the sake of being crude and offensive. To these writers and directors, "Adult" to them defaults to "Sex, drugs, guns, swearing and violence!1!1!!". Ironically they end up making the shows even more childish than an episode of Spongebob. 90% of the time it's all the same lazy sleazy crap. Too many to list.

Kids shows do better than adult animation because they are limited, and have regulations on what they can/cannot do, so they try an intelligent way to sneak stuff past S&P, and surprisingly, their adult jokes and innuendos are way funnier than adult cartoon jokes

Sometimes they are, but other times you get absolutely vapid garbage like Teen Titans Go that goes too far in the opposite direction and treats its young audiences like complete and utter morons who can't handle anything remotely challenging by assaulting them with nonstop butt jokes.

[Hellspawn28]

Since we’re on the subject of MPAA ratings, I was actually pretty surprised back when Dragonball Evolution was given a PG rating. Even in 2009, a PG-13 was the default rating for those kinds of movies, so I assumed that would’ve applied to DBE as well, especially since the trailer seemed to emphasize the action, to the point where Bulma appeared to be a gun toting action hero. Of course, the movie would’ve been bad regardless, but Fox must’ve agreed that Dragon Ball is strictly kid’s stuff, if they didn’t even bother shooting for a PG-13.

Last Airbender was also PG too. Live-action movies with a PG rating rarely sell well because people tend to avoid them. The PG rating sells well if it is animated. I used to work at a movie theater and I saw people that didn't want to see Tron Legacy because it was PG. DBE was probably filmed with a PG-13 rating in mind going by the deleted scenes but must edit it to be PG at the last minute in hopes that parents will take their kids to go see it.