Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:58 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:51 pm
Chris Sabat flat out said that Toei made them use "Beerus."
This is not true. Following our own style guide adoption, FUNimation went with "Beerus" for their dub (while Simmons used "Beers" for the subtitles), while Toei were themselves still using "Beers" - https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2014/02/11/n ... on-beerus/
jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:51 pm
Zamasu over the more logical "Zamas" was also confirmed to be Toei's doing.
Logical according to...? We use "Zamasu" in our style guide; our logic is that since the name is a direct Japanese word completely untouched, the name should be spelled as such (since, indeed, it is the exact same word). Why do you suggest otherwise?
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Super Sonic » Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:04 pm

Kinda related, but with the One Piece manga translation, Viz had one king bull's name as "Sodomu" while Funimation in the dub had his name as "Sodom". (Didn't watch the episodes subbed, so don't know which version the subs went with). Extra "u" or not, the pun was the same with his brother Gomorrah, so why the change, who knows? (For those not familiar, Sodom and Gomorrah were ancient cities that according to Biblical account, were destroyed by the wrath of God for their inhabitants' wickedness and cruelty, though the king bulls were nice).

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:45 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:51 pm
Chris Sabat flat out said that Toei made them use "Beerus." Zamasu over the more logical "Zamas" was also confirmed to be Toei's doing.

Additionally, the Crunchy Roll subs that had the same funky name translations were straight from Toei.
Do you have any sources to back that up?
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:58 pm
jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:51 pm
Chris Sabat flat out said that Toei made them use "Beerus."
This is not true. Following our own style guide adoption, FUNimation went with "Beerus" for their dub (while Simmons used "Beers" for the subtitles), while Toei were themselves still using "Beers" - https://www.kanzenshuu.com/2014/02/11/n ... on-beerus/
jjgp1112 wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:51 pm
Zamasu over the more logical "Zamas" was also confirmed to be Toei's doing.
Logical according to...? We use "Zamasu" in our style guide; our logic is that since the name is a direct Japanese word completely untouched, the name should be spelled as such (since, indeed, it is the exact same word). Why do you suggest otherwise?
Wait, so is Beerus, actually "Beers"?

Also, what do you think? What is your take on Burduck?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:11 pm

Merus comes from "merusu", rearranged from surume (a squid fish?), and I personally call him Mels. That's a drink's name.
Pybara comes from "pibara", possibly rewritten from pivara (bosnian brewery?), and I personally call him Brewer of Gods.

Should I be a translator in easier times, such as the 80s or the 90s, when people understood the adaptation, not just word for word with each character scrutinized, but with what best suited their language, I would have used these names, even now with people knowing "better".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:18 am

Desassina wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:11 pm
Merus comes from "merusu", rearranged from surume (a squid fish?), and I personally call him Mels. That's a drink's name.
Pybara comes from "pibara", possibly rewritten from pivara (bosnian brewery?), and I personally call him Brewer of Gods.

Should I be a translator in easier times, such as the 80s or the 90s, when people understood the adaptation, not just word for word with each character scrutinized, but with what best suited their language, I would have used these names, even now with people knowing "better".
What?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by NitroEX » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:07 pm

Adamant wrote:
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:38 pm
My PERSONAL opinion would be that it makes the most sense to pronounce it "Bur-duck" - "bur" as in burdock and "duck" as in the animal. But that's just my personal opinion, and clearly not the one shared by the French translator, and I totally see where she's coming from too. Names derived from other languages are difficult like that.
I realize there isn't a clear answer to any of this, but I had to take issue with this version mainly because it leaves an unwanted emphasis on the duck part of the name, inevitably leading an English audience into thinking about the bird which can overshadow the plant connotation (just my opinion).
Adamant wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:55 pm
Can someone please explain where this "Kuririn's name comes from shaolin" thing even comes from? Is there ANYTHING anywhere that even remotely hints at this, or is it just some desperate attempt at trying to connect that "rin" at the end of his name to some kind of word?

All Toriyama ever said about the name was that he just kinda halfassed it because he didn't think the character would stick around, which really suggests it's just "kurikuri" (meaning clean-shaven) with a cutesy "rin" thrown onto the end, not some crazy combination of unrelated words combined in a way more complex manner than any of his other puns. (He'd later associate the 栗 kanji with the character, and then ultimately gave him a daughter named Maron, after the French word for chestnut, marron, but that all came later)
I also feel the need to point out what seems to be a double standard with Kurilin, which I find far less egregious than Kuririn (again, my opinion - I'll try to explain why). You seem to disqualify Kurilin based on the "lin" part being a random addition, yet it is arguably less random than the "duck" in Burduck and is less damaging to the pun. For example there is no bird connotation to Bardock's character or appearance, yet there is at least a clear Shaolin visual motif to Krillin's design. That's not to say the "lin" should be the focus of the name rather than the kuri/chestnut part, but I do at least find it less problematic than the alternative "rin" which just sounds like an Engrish version that bizarrely retains the Japanese inability to pronounce the "L" in place of an "R".

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:33 pm

NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:07 pm
I also feel the need to point out what seems to be a double standard with Kurilin, which I find far less egregious than Kuririn (again, my opinion - I'll try to explain why). You seem to disqualify Kurilin based on the "lin" part being a random addition, yet it is arguably less random than the "duck" in Burduck and is less damaging to the pun. For example there is no bird connotation to Bardock's character or appearance
What are you talking about? I never said anything about Burduck's name having anything to do with ducks. I told an English speaker that that syllable should be pronounced like the English word "duck". You spelled it "Bardock" in your post, yet I doubt you're trying to imply his name has anything to do with docks.
NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:07 pm
but I do at least find it less problematic than the alternative "rin" which just sounds like an Engrish version that bizarrely retains the Japanese inability to pronounce the "L" in place of an "R".
...it's a Japanese name that has nothing to do with the English langage in any way shape or form, how can it sound "Engrish"? You're sounding kinda dangerously close to racist here.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by NitroEX » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:01 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:33 pm
What are you talking about? I never said anything about Burduck's name having anything to do with ducks. I told an English speaker that that syllable should be pronounced like the English word "duck". You spelled it "Bardock" in your post, yet I doubt you're trying to imply his name has anything to do with docks.
I think I made myself pretty clear. I didn't imply you said his name had anything to do with ducks, but it seems to be an unintentional oversight with your chosen spelling of the name, at least from my point of view, so I pointed it out.

I only included the English spelling as a way to differentiate from your own and used it as a neutral spelling, there's no reason to be reading into that.
Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:33 pm
but I do at least find it less problematic than the alternative "rin" which just sounds like an Engrish version that bizarrely retains the Japanese inability to pronounce the "L" in place of an "R".
...it's a Japanese name that has nothing to do with the English langage in any way shape or form, how can it sound "Engrish"?
Because the latter part of the name (how it's written in the romanization) doesn't sound natural in English speech. Saying it as an English speaker comes across more like you're affecting an accent (hence the Engrish).

And yes, I know kuri is a Japanese word, which is why it's untouched. it's only the "rin" at the end which seems questionable for English. It feels like a Japanese approximation of the L sound, similar to if I pronounced Chun-Li as Chunrī, or Kolin as Kōrin.
I'm sure you already know that there are numerous better examples throughout translated media of asian character names with an "R" translated with an "L" (where appropriate), rather than sticking strictly to the romanization spelling. These are just ones off the top of my head.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:24 pm

NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:01 pm
I think I made myself pretty clear. I didn't imply you said his name had anything to do with ducks, but it seems to be an unintentional oversight with your chosen spelling of the name, at least from my point of view, so I pointed it out.
It still makes no sense. The logic behind "Burduck" is that the two vowel sounds in the name are the same one, and it's the same as the first vowel sound in Burdock, the source of his name. It has nothing more to do with duks than "Bardock" has to do with docks. It's like saying "Dabura" is better than "Dabra" because the latter sounds like it has something to do with bras.
NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:01 pm
Because the latter part of the name (how it's written in the romanization) doesn't sound natural in English speech. Saying it as an English speaker comes across more like you're affecting an accent (hence the Engrish).
...you're REALLY starting to come across as pretty racist now, so I'd advise you to just drop this tangent. Chun-Li's name is written with an L because it's a Chinese name, not because "those wacky Japanese use too many Rs in the names of the characters they make up, we need to change a some of them into Ls at random to make it look English". Kuririn's name is "kurikuri" + "-rin", these are two Japanese words that have nothing to do with English or "Engrish", and randomly changing various Rs into Ls to make words "rook ress Japanese"...

Please don't. Just don't.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by NitroEX » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:24 pm
NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:01 pm
I think I made myself pretty clear. I didn't imply you said his name had anything to do with ducks, but it seems to be an unintentional oversight with your chosen spelling of the name, at least from my point of view, so I pointed it out.
It still makes no sense. The logic behind "Burduck" is that the two vowel sounds in the name are the same one, and it's the same as the first vowel sound in Burdock, the source of his name. It has nothing more to do with duks than "Bardock" has to do with docks. It's like saying "Dabura" is better than "Dabra" because the latter sounds like it has something to do with bras.
Again, it feels like you're trying to misunderstand me or something.

You're focusing on the issue of me apparently implying that you want to draw a connection to ducks when what I was actually referring to was an unintended connection a reader/audience member might make due to the spelling (and potentially the pronunciation in one's head or voiceover, due to said spelling). Ducks are not the focus of the pun, I get that, which is why I advise avoiding that spelling to keep the focus on the plant pun/connotation. The docks example is irrelevant because docks aren't a living organism that you would keep in a freezer, dock is also closer to the spelling of the plant for what it's worth. But somehow this is confusing you so I'll not push this critique any further, I've already said what I had to say.

- And if you're implying I'm defending the English spellings over more faithful variations you'd be wrong to assume so.
...you're REALLY starting to come across as pretty racist now, so I'd advise you to just drop this tangent. Chun-Li's name is written with an L because it's a Chinese name, not because "those wacky Japanese use too many Rs in the names of the characters they make up, we need to change a some of them into Ls at random to make it look English". Kuririn's name is "kurikuri" + "-rin", these are two Japanese words that have nothing to do with English or "Engrish", and randomly changing various Rs into Ls to make words "rook ress Japanese"...
... And you, my friend, are really projecting and reaching hard for those ad hominem attacks. But by all means, dig yourself further.

I know about Chun-Li's Chinese origins and I'm familiar with the interchangeability of Ls and Rs for Chinese and Japanese, I also know that English adaptations have historically been rather flexible in which they choose to use for English versions.

Amazing that DB fans can get this heated over simple critique. Absolutely toxic as usual.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:41 pm

“I’m being seriously challenged on material I’m putting forth in a discussion” is not inherently “toxic”; please be careful on how you respond and frame things, less you be misunderstood... which we’re all hoping is the case here, but you’ve left little ambiguity at this point.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:21 pm

NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm
Again, it feels like you're trying to misunderstand me or something.
I'm not trying to misunderstand you, I'm saying I don't understand the logic. Why should the letter combination d-u-c-k have to be avoided in the name of a character from group who are all named after vegetables to avoid people assuming a relation to the animal duck, while it's fine to have the letter combination b-r-a in the name of a character from group who are all named after magic words? How is this different? It's the exact same thing.
NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm
I know about Chun-Li's Chinese origins and I'm familiar with the interchangeability of Ls and Rs for Chinese and Japanese, I also know that English adaptations have historically been rather flexible in which they choose to use for English versions.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but you seem to be misinterpreting a lot about these names.
Chun-Li is a character with a Chinese name. The "Chun-Li" spelling is how this name is romanized into the latin alphabet using the Pinyin romanization system. This has nothing to do with English or "English versions" or "English adaptations" or anything. Her name is not spellied with an L in English material because some English video game translator thought an L looked "more English" than an R. This has nothing to do with "interchangability of Ls and Rs", it's a Chinese name that was romanized according to a standardized romanization system.

"Kuririn", likewise, is how you directly romanize that character's name according to... well, every single established system of romanization for Japanese, really. It's a name made up from two Japanese "words", there's no logic in suddenly and randomly choosing to throw in some random Ls in your romanized spelling just to "make it look more English".

CAN you do it? Sure, the character's name has been spelled as everything from "Klilyn" to "Clirin", but these spellings tend to be accompanied by other spellings like "Ginew" and "Turls" and are clearly not done according to ANY logic whatsoever, and seemingly by people that have no clue these names are supposed to be puns. You can certainly call the character "Cully Rinne" if you want and it wouldn't be outright "wrong", but it wouldn't have any kind of logic to it either. And that goes for "Kurilin" too.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Zestanor » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:53 pm

What Nitro is saying is correct. The Japanese language does not contain the phonemes that English orthography represents as R and L.

However, “kuri” said with normal English phonemes sounds closer to the Japanese word than “irin.” Conversely “ilin” sounds all right. If you say “Kuririn” with English rhotic Rs, the “irin” is difficult because that cluster of sounds is rare in our language. If you say it with flipped Rs (like in Japanese) it sounds fine on its own, BUT in the context of real English sentences (lines of dialogue performed by VAs, low-level discussions with friends) it sounds unnatural, because it is an un-English pronunciation. It would sound affected.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:53 pm
What Nitro is saying is correct. The Japanese language does not contain the phonemes that English orthography represents as R and L.

However, “kuri” said with normal English phonemes sounds closer to the Japanese word than “irin.” Conversely “ilin” sounds all right. If you say “Kuririn” with English rhotic Rs, the “irin” is difficult because that cluster of sounds is rare in our language. If you say it with flipped Rs (like in Japanese) it sounds fine on its own, BUT in the context of real English sentences (lines of dialogue performed by VAs, low-level discussions with friends) it sounds unnatural, because it is an un-English pronunciation. It would sound affected.
What you're saying isn't wrong, but... you're kinda going into "renaming characters to make their names easier for dubbers to pronounce" territory here, which doesn't really have anything to do with what Nitro was talking about.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:38 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:53 pm
What Nitro is saying is correct. The Japanese language does not contain the phonemes that English orthography represents as R and L.

However, “kuri” said with normal English phonemes sounds closer to the Japanese word than “irin.” Conversely “ilin” sounds all right. If you say “Kuririn” with English rhotic Rs, the “irin” is difficult because that cluster of sounds is rare in our language. If you say it with flipped Rs (like in Japanese) it sounds fine on its own, BUT in the context of real English sentences (lines of dialogue performed by VAs, low-level discussions with friends) it sounds unnatural, because it is an un-English pronunciation. It would sound affected.
So is Kurlilin better, or Kurilin? Which is the best for "Kuririn" in English?
NitroEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:00 pm
I think I made myself pretty clear. I didn't imply you said his name had anything to do with ducks, but it seems to be an unintentional oversight with your chosen spelling of the name, at least from my point of view, so I pointed it out.

It still makes no sense. The logic behind "Burduck" is that the two vowel sounds in the name are the same one, and it's the same as the first vowel sound in Burdock, the source of his name. It has nothing more to do with duks than "Bardock" has to do with docks. It's like saying "Dabura" is better than "Dabra" because the latter sounds like it has something to do with bras.
Again, it feels like you're trying to misunderstand me or something.
[/quote]
So would "Burduck" be the utmost accurate-best way to translate it? (BER(ur)-duck)?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Zestanor » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:42 pm

Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:03 pm
What you're saying isn't wrong, but... you're kinda going into "renaming characters to make their names easier for dubbers to pronounce" territory here, which doesn't really have anything to do with what Nitro was talking about.
I was just defending the Engrish thing. The difference in the kinds sounds that come out of the mouth of a native English speaker and a native Japanese speaker cannot be discounted. When you brought up racism and latched onto that and dug your heels in on it you kinda derailed y’all’s dialogue and he probably decided not to engage with you anymore.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Aim » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:35 am

VegettoEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:41 pm
“I’m being seriously challenged on material I’m putting forth in a discussion” is not inherently “toxic”; please be careful on how you respond and frame things, less you be misunderstood... which we’re all hoping is the case here, but you’ve left little ambiguity at this point.
Mike, I'm really interested to hear your take on this, back to the Kakarot/Kakarrotto discussion, if you were to make a perfect dub/manga translation, how would you go about it? Would you go with the "Cacarrotto" spellings? Would you keep the double "R"'s? How would you try to preserve the puns while also making it so it doesn't stray so far from what's originally intended?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by The Bastard. » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:27 am

Aim wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:35 am
VegettoEX wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:41 pm
“I’m being seriously challenged on material I’m putting forth in a discussion” is not inherently “toxic”; please be careful on how you respond and frame things, less you be misunderstood... which we’re all hoping is the case here, but you’ve left little ambiguity at this point.
Mike, I'm really interested to hear your take on this, back to the Kakarot/Kakarrotto discussion, if you were to make a perfect dub/manga translation, how would you go about it? Would you go with the "Cacarrotto" spellings? Would you keep the double "R"'s? How would you try to preserve the puns while also making it so it doesn't stray so far from what's originally intended?
Not a native English speaker but what is the issue in Kuririn? Why put a L where it's clearly and R? To sound "better"? If that's the reason then it makes no sense to put a random L in his name.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by Aim » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:09 pm

The Bastard. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:27 am
Not a native English speaker but what is the issue in Kuririn? Why put a L where it's clearly and R? To sound "better"? If that's the reason then it makes no sense to put a random L in his name.
I wasn't the one making the argument for that. From my understanding, the "R" in Japanese is an equivalent to the "L" in English, I personally am unsure of Kuririn's name, people suggest "Kurilin, I guess it's all about trying to adapt these names so they are easier to say in English.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto effect

Post by The Bastard. » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:18 pm

Aim wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:09 pm
The Bastard. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:27 am
Not a native English speaker but what is the issue in Kuririn? Why put a L where it's clearly and R? To sound "better"? If that's the reason then it makes no sense to put a random L in his name.
I wasn't the one making the argument for that. From my understanding, the "R" in Japanese is an equivalent to the "L" in English, I personally am unsure of Kuririn's name, people suggest "Kurilin, I guess it's all about trying to adapt these names so they are easier to say in English.
Isn't more like R is R but L lacks a Japanese Counterpart? And is it that hard to pronounce Kuririn in English?

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