Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[Skar]

Goten and Trunks are weaker thanks to their parents not wanting them to train. DBZ they never stopped a character from fighting and training 100% of the time thanks to other character, however in DBS Goten and Trunks are always stopped 100% thanks to other characters.

I get where you're coming from but I've accepted that Toriyama stopped caring about Goten and Trunks by the end of the Buu saga. In EoZ, they've both lost interest in training and were forced to enter the tournament by their parents. I prefer they don't train at all in DBS than have them train and get stronger only fan service since they would have to lose interest in it again to lead into EoZ.

Future Gohan trains all the time and he has plenty of experience fighting stronger enemies. He's battle tested. And Gohan doesn't reach SSJ2 because he's trained for it. He doesn't even know he has it.

I think he means the difference between future and present Gohan in SSJ1. Future Gohan was weaker than one of the cyborgs after years of training on his own and with Trunks while Present Gohan mastered SSJ in a year after being trained by Goku. If mastering SSJ1 is required before reaching SSJ2 then Future Gohan would've had a long way to go.

[ABED]

In that case it's less Gohan not being trained than it is Gohan not having his father to tell him what to do.

[super michael]

In that case it's less Gohan not being trained than it is Gohan not having his father to tell him what to do.

Future Gohan lacked the skills and knowledge to train efficiently, since the only mentor he had was Piccolo for 6 months. Neither Future Gohan or Future Trunks thought of mastering their Super Saiyan form or gain any new forms.

Present Gohan had all the mentors and even special room needed to get the most out of his training.

By that logic Goku only got as strong as he did since he had masters telling him what to do. Look at Vegeta without a mentor he would have stayed Super Saiyan 2 forever, but thanks to Whis his mentor he is now Goku rival. Even though Goku is ahead of Vegeta, Vegeta is now going to learn from Beerus.


In DBZ no one would order Mr Satan to fight powerful aliens, but in DBS manga they have no problem ordering Mr Satan to fight.
That little bad writing won't ruin DBS manga since I enjoy it too much, but if something is bad writing then it deserve to be called out.

[ABED]

But to you, bad writing includes when something didn't happen before and you extrapolate that to mean it would never happen.

[super michael]

But to you, bad writing includes when something didn't happen before and you extrapolate that to mean it would never happen.

When a character loses their development and regress for no reason, then yes that is bad writing. This is a problem for DBS anime, while DBS manga handles it way better.

Chi Chi never acts like a horrible character in DBS manga at all, however the anime version they likes to make her look like a horrible character.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

But to you, bad writing includes when something didn't happen before and you extrapolate that to mean it would never happen.

When a character loses their development and regress for no reason, then yes that is bad writing. This is a problem for DBS anime, while DBS manga handles it way better.

Chi Chi never acts like a horrible character in DBS manga at all, however the anime version they likes to make her look like a horrible character.

Indeed, there's many moments in the Super anime with Chi-Chi which make even some of her more grating bits in DBZ (particularly where she is more concerned with Gohan's home schooling than the fate of the world and people.etc) that i don't like that much look tame by comparison. It seems the writers played up the "nagging house wife/overbearing study minded mother" part even moreso than they'd done in the latter.

[LoganForkHands73]

Huh? I thought Chi-Chi was decently handled in Super. She actually expresses concern for Goku many times and she's nowhere near as overbearing about her obsession with studying. There's a few times when I'm rudely reminded of "early Z Chi-Chi", sure, but otherwise, I don't think she's anywhere near as obnoxious as she was back then. In fact, her character grew on me quite a lot.

[super michael]

Huh? I thought Chi-Chi was decently handled in Super. She actually expresses concern for Goku many times and she's nowhere near as overbearing about her obsession with studying. There's a few times when I'm rudely reminded of "early Z Chi-Chi", sure, but otherwise, I don't think she's anywhere near as obnoxious as she was back then. In fact, her character grew on me quite a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGjiOoeLOk
Chi Chi tried to stop Goku from training with Whis, she never did that in DBZ. She didn't care what Gohan and Goten told Chi Chi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSimitLNo_E
Kaioken Chi Chi getting mad at Gohan idea to let Goten spar with Goku.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3uaW8bpeo
Chi Chi not allowing Goten to train with Goku on Whis planet. Chi Chi being a dream crasher.
When they sneak away from Chi Chi, Chi Chi alerts Bulma to stop Goten at all cost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yQ8FojL-A
Goten not allowed to race with Piccolo and Goku to pick up vegetables.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffT5v4fOhl8
Chi Chi stops Goku from training and lies about wasting all their money.

There are more scenes, I just can't remember the episodes. There the one that she locks herself and Pan so she isn't with Gohan and Mr Satan.

DBZ Chi Chi became a great character in the Buu Saga. She remained a good character in Yo Son Goku Ova and BoG movie.
DBS manga Chi Chi remains a great character, while DBS Chi Chi turns into a horrible character.

Toyotaro >>>>> Toei.

GT Chi Chi is a better character than DBS anime Chi Chi.

[JulieYBM]

Morishita Kouzou had influence on the early portion of Dragon Ball Super, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's in large part why Chi-Chi falls back into that old routine from the original movies and anime original scenes in the original cartoon series. Speaking #AsAWoman, it's definitely something I dislike seeing because it's both annoying to see a woman framed this way in media when our representation is so limited but also because it's just plain boring. Gokuu and Chi-Chi actually having a healthy relationship as a married couple would not only be a breath of fresh air but also goddamned cute.

[ABED]

But then you are putting that above story. Goku is never and will never be a great husband. The issue is she regressed in Super because the writers wanted her to be the character the audience was most familiar with. There's no good reason to make them a functional couple but Chichi didn't have to turn back into a shrew.

And this is not an example at all of what I was talking about. She regressed meaning we've seen this portrayal of her before. I was talking about the numerous times you took something happening in Super that didn't happen in DB/Z as proof of a contradiction.

[super michael]

But then you are putting that above story. Goku is never and will never be a great husband. The issue is she regressed in Super because the writers wanted her to be the character the audience was most familiar with. There's no good reason to make them a functional couple but Chichi didn't have to turn back into a shrew.

And this is not an example at all of what I was talking about. She regressed meaning we've seen this portrayal of her before. I was talking about the numerous times you took something happening in Super that didn't happen in DB/Z as proof of a contradiction.

If the anime team made her regress so people are familiar with her, here is one simple question. Why is it the manga isn't doing the same also? Instead Chi Chi in the manga is excited to see Gohan fight from Kami Lookout.
Manga Chi Chi doesn't try to prevent Goku from training or her sons to train and fight. Those scenes of Chi Chi trying to forbid are anime exclusive.

Chi Chi in the manga and anime they are day and night different. The anime likes making their characters worse than DB/Z, which luckily the manga doesn't do that.

[ABED]

I don't know and I don't have interest in reading the Super manga.

[super michael]

I don't know and I don't have interest in reading the Super manga.

I am not saying that you have to read the manga, I know not everyone enjoys reading mangas. Fair enough you don't know why the anime and manga write their character so different.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't remember Chi-Chi having a significant role or much time to show her personality in any of the manga arcs. Care to give some examples of how she's so much greater in the manga?

Goku and Chi-Chi's relationship seems bizarre and distant by our standards but the anime shows that they have a certain routine and way of communicating. When Goku tries to go off training with Whis, Chi-Chi acts as the roadblock, Goku goes off anyway, Chi-Chi wistfully accepts it and says "Well, that's Goku". Even though she would obviously prefer if Goku stayed, which is understandable, she's almost happy that he defied her. If he didn't, Goku wouldn't be happy Goku loves that fierce side of Chi-Chi as much as he feigns fear of it and Chi-Chi loves Goku's wilfulness to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. It's a win-win. In many ways, it's an ideal Saiyan relationship, but still has that human element.

I agree that the studying jokes are tired, though they're usually slightly more justified as unlike with Gohan, there's genuinely no real need for Goten to go out endangering himself. She's at least not totally singleminded about it. Anyway, there's plenty of good moments for Chi-Chi to counteract the bad ones, especially in the Zamasu arc, where she prioritises the news of Goten's death in the alternate timeline without even thinking about herself.

[kemuri07]

I really wish we got more of the Chi-Chi from the final arc of Dragon Ball where she's kind of a badass. DBZ had a nasty habit of sidelining the women with babies.

[JulieYBM]

It'd have been so cool if Chi-Chi had helped in the Raditz fight and she and Gokuu both died holding Raditz in place for the Makankou-sappou.

...then when Chi-Chi comes back she could be the one to break Nappa's back.

[90sDBZ]

The scene were Chi Chi twists Goku's arm in Super while having an expression of sadistic pleasure is the definition of a caricature. I'd even go as far to say she was never portrayed that bad in Z, even at her worst.

I'm at the point were I actually find her somewhat likeable and even funny in Z.

[ABED]

I really wish we got more of the Chi-Chi from the final arc of Dragon Ball where she's kind of a badass. DBZ had a nasty habit of sidelining the women with babies.

She was always on the sidelines.

[WittyUsername]

I really wish we got more of the Chi-Chi from the final arc of Dragon Ball where she's kind of a badass. DBZ had a nasty habit of sidelining the women with babies.

She was always on the sidelines.

They’re probably referring to the filler arc that closes out the OG anime. She has a pretty prominent role there.

[jjgp1112]

I don't remember Chi-Chi having a significant role or much time to show her personality in any of the manga arcs. Care to give some examples of how she's so much greater in the manga?

Goku and Chi-Chi's relationship seems bizarre and distant by our standards but the anime shows that they have a certain routine and way of communicating. When Goku tries to go off training with Whis, Chi-Chi acts as the roadblock, Goku goes off anyway, Chi-Chi wistfully accepts it and says "Well, that's Goku". Even though she would obviously prefer if Goku stayed, which is understandable, she's almost happy that he defied her. If he didn't, Goku wouldn't be happy Goku loves that fierce side of Chi-Chi as much as he feigns fear of it and Chi-Chi loves Goku's wilfulness to do whatever he wants whenever he wants. It's a win-win. In many ways, it's an ideal Saiyan relationship, but still has that human element.

I agree that the studying jokes are tired, though they're usually slightly more justified as unlike with Gohan, there's genuinely no real need for Goten to go out endangering himself. She's at least not totally singleminded about it. Anyway, there's plenty of good moments for Chi-Chi to counteract the bad ones, especially in the Zamasu arc, where she prioritises the news of Goten's death in the alternate timeline without even thinking about herself.

Goku and Chi-Chi have a grand total of like...5 conversations in the manga after the 23rd TB. And all but one of them involves Chi-Chi nagging and Goku being all "Aw shucks."