Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[Matches Malone]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

The sense I get is AT isn't nearly as involved as you are implying.

If they can't move away from Goku, then they should at least separate him from Vegeta to mix things up. Give them their separate adventures instead of sticking them together 24/7.

That's the problem, he's not as involved as before nor is he hands off like with GT. He's in this middle road that's honestly not working very well. Either fully commit or step aside for someone who will.

[Kendamu]

"Stop hating what i like", "Stop liking what i hate", these two sentences sums up the DB fandom right now.

It's caused me a lot of frustration because I kinda bought into taking a side in that rather than just being like, "You don't like [ thing ]? That's cool. Hopefully you find something else that you do like."

[JulieYBM]

Fandom is perpetually in a state of 'competition', as opposed to cooperation and co-existence. Everything is a debate, everything needs to be aggressively conquered. It's exhausting for what is supposed to be a hobby for escape from Actually Important Shit.

[Planetnamek]

"Stop hating what i like", "Stop liking what i hate", these two sentences sums up the DB fandom right now.

Hell that pretty much sums up most fandoms right now

Just the other day I had some troll on Reddit take a mocking attitude towards me because I dared to say that I unironically enjoyed Zack Snyder's DCEU films, and he was so convinced his opinion on them was an absolute fact and not just his personal opinion.

[ABED]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

The sense I get is AT isn't nearly as involved as you are implying.

If they can't move away from Goku, then they should at least separate him from Vegeta to mix things up. Give them their separate adventures instead of sticking them together 24/7.

That's the problem, he's not as involved as before nor is he hands off like with GT. He's in this middle road that's honestly not working very well. Either fully commit or step aside for someone who will.

They can't move away from Goku because it is his story.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you're talking about regarding "middle of the road". I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

[Dbzfan94]

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do too, but theres only so much you can do before it becomes incredibly stale, which to me it has a long time ago.

[ABED]

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do too, but theres only so much you can do before it becomes incredibly stale, which to me it has a long time ago.

The entire story has become stale. There is nothing left to do with DB but let it end.

[Dbzfan94]

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do too, but theres only so much you can do before it becomes incredibly stale, which to me it has a long time ago.

The entire story has become stale. There is nothing left to do with DB but let it end.

I completely agree. It should have stayed dead in 1997 with only ocassional video game popping up now and again.

[kemuri07]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

Which is pretty much my initial point: DB is dead without Goku. But including Goku basically means that the series can never evolve. It just becomes more of the same.

[ABED]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

Which is pretty much my initial point: DB is dead without Goku. But including Goku basically means that the series can never evolve. It just becomes more of the same.

If he has to go away then it's not Dragon Ball.

[Kendamu]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

Which is pretty much my initial point: DB is dead without Goku. But including Goku basically means that the series can never evolve. It just becomes more of the same.

If he has to go away then it's not Dragon Ball.

Yeah. Taking Goku away at this point (in 2020) would be like saying, "Donnie Yen movies need less Donnie Yen."

[Grimlock]

Hm, I don't know about that. I think all changes are possible, what will get you is how these changes come/happen.

Yes, taking Goku abruptly away right now, out of a sudden, would be a terrible move. No matter what, it won't be right. However, taking Goku away little by little, slowly giving others more screentime, reducing Goku's role in a very subtle way... Yeah, I think it would work just fine.

Of course, I say this considering the general fanbase, which is obviously attached to Goku character like a mother is to their kid. To me, they could kill Goku right now and move on to something/someone else, I will thank whoever decided that.

[Kendamu]

Hm, I don't know about that. I think all changes are possible, what will get you is how these changes come/happen.

Yes, taking Goku abruptly away right now, out of a sudden, would be a terrible move. No matter what, it won't be right. However, taking Goku away little by little, slowly giving others more screentime, reducing Goku's role in a very subtle way... Yeah, I think it would work just fine.

Of course, I say this considering the general fanbase, which is obviously attached to Goku character like a mother is to their kid. To me, they could kill Goku right now and move on to something/someone else, I will thank whoever decided that.

And that, whether done slowly or quickly, just goes against the entire idea of Goku being the constant that changes very little (or very slowly). It's through Goku's actions that other characters end up going through their really cool arcs. He's the one constant in the universe that, though how he interacts with them, causes all these other characters to become better people. It's like the entire point of why he remains relatively unchanged.

It's like taking Jackie Chan out of Jackie Chan movies. The random props on set aren't gonna fight the bad guys on their own. You need someone to pick them up and improvise weapons out of them.

[ABED]

Take Goku out of DB and you have a generic martial arts show with some mcguffins. Stories that lose their main characters aren't the better for it. If you get rid of him why not just move onto something else?

[Psajdak]

Problem doesn't lie in Goku, but in those who write him.

[LoganForkHands73]

The thing is, introducing a "new generation" isn't some magical, automatic fix for everything. It can work and I'm certainly not against change, but as a trope it has such a spotty track record that I'm much more apprehensive towards it now than I was years ago. Especially when you consider how undeniably central Goku is to Dragon Ball and pop culture as a whole, it would be like shooting themselves in the foot to get rid of him at this point purely in the name of "spicing things up". I'm not gonna lie though, I will have some begrudging respect for the ballsiness of whomever eventually decides to bin Son Goku.

While Goku's adventures under Toriyama's direct pen ended decades ago, I may be a lone optimist in saying that Super can and has taken the character to new, interesting places.

[ABED]

Far too few place enough importance on the intangibles. Success and quality are as much lightning in a bottle as it is talent. DB has had its day. It's not about the quality of the writer.

[Psajdak]

I don't know...

So much post 2013 things was so well received that they must doing at least something right.

Overrate DB + DBZ as much as you want, but DB in general was never as big, and as relevant as nowadays, so much that fandom is thirsting for even a tiny bit of info about new anime.

[MyVisionity]

If there was ever a time to kill off Son Goku and replace him, now would be the time. The original series is over and done with, so why not take advantage of this new series and just go bonkers. Create an entirely new character for audiences to get to know and invest in.

Also, maybe do a story where the good guys lose and the villains win. Something that audiences don't see coming. And then the series could become known for setting a new standard. It might make the stories and battles that much more exciting.

[BWri]

I've notice over the years that much of the fandom seems to knee-jerkingly dismiss any suggestions on ways to improve the writing of the series, even when they themselves are highly critical of it. For instance, many such suggestions are often dismissed with inane responses like "Dragonball is not an ensemble", "Toriyama wouldn't approve", "this is a kids series" or "lore is not story" when nobody was even mentioning lore lmao. Its like these enforce low standards on the series.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Most of those are nonsensical anyway. Dragon Ball is many things and has incorporated many elements into its formula. It's also morphed in ways no one could have, would have, or have predicted. It could be anything that the creator wants. In the past it's been an ensemble for certain parts, emphasizing certain fan favorite characters and having them drive the plot while Goku recovers or gets stronger in the background. It's featured storylines with graphic violence, murder, suggestive humor and bleak tones more suitable for adults than children. And its lore is one of the more intriguing aspects of the series that fans want to see more of. Even Toriyama-san can't seem to avoid it as we've seen with the Broly movie and BoG.

If I'm honest though, I have enforced low standards in a different way, by lowering my own standards of what to expect from the show. It's drastically improved my enjoyment of Super. It's not ideal as I prefer for a show to engage me cerebrally as well, but if I want to enjoy the spectacle, characters, and action then I have to turn off much of the thinking part of my brain.