Was GT a failure ?

[Planetnamek]

Ratings were pretty solid, but because GT merchandise wasn't really selling all that well Toei saw it as a failure and unlike with previous two DB series it didn't have a Manga to fall back on, so GT getting cut short was inevitable.

[MasenkoHA]

Ratings were pretty solid, but because GT merchandise wasn't really selling all that well Toei saw it as a failure and unlike with previous two DB series it didn't have a Manga to fall back on, so GT getting cut short was inevitable.

It lasted over a year and was the direct follow up to a series that had been going on for a decade, I’d be hard pressed to say it was cut short especially if it was apparently only going to last 40 episodes.

[Matches Malone]

GT's ratings are about the same as the ratings of the mid Boo arc. Ultimately, Japanese fans had kinda lost interest by that point. A bunch tuned back in for the final episodes of Z, but for the most part, the audience had dried up. When GT began, most people just weren't interested in watching.

I used to question how people could get tired of DB after 400+ episodes when One Piece is on its way to a 1000, but I didn't take into account that back then, DB's length wasn't the norm. Even the manga reaching 500+ chapters wasn't expected like it is now.

It had 64 episodes which is a typical five cour anime.

In an interview with GT's producer, he said that they had the ending planned early on.

65 is what a 5 cour would be (13×5), which it reached when you take the TV special into account.

It seems like GT was intended from the start to be a shorter series, one that gave DB a more satisfying, definitive conclusion.

I’d be hard pressed to say it was cut short especially if it was apparently only going to last 40 episodes.

The idea of it being intended for 40 then extended is just a rumor, one that no one's able to track back to a reliable source. What we do know is that the ending was planned early on, so the idea of it originally ending with Baby is false based on that.

[JulieYBM]

GT was originally only planned for six months. That it ran for over a year is quite an accomplishment.

[Matches Malone]

GT was originally only planned for six months.

There's no truth to this rumor, just as there's no truth to the rumor stating it was intended for 40 episodes.

[Skar]

I used to question how people could get tired of DB after 400+ episodes when One Piece is on its way to a 1000, but I didn't take into account that back then, DB's length wasn't the norm. Even the manga reaching 500+ chapters wasn't expected like it is now.

The longest running anime are mostly for young children like Sazae-san and Doraemon and franchises based on some form of merchandise like Pokemon, Gundam, and Yugioh.

I believe Case Closed and One Piece are the longest running still adapting a single author's manga. OP's manga sales peaked in 2011 and have been declining since then:

Spoiler:

This might have to do more with the decline of print media in general since OP is still the best selling manga series aside from last year when it dropped to #2 after Demon Slayer. It's still really successful but I don't know of any long running series that was able to reverse it's decline once it started. It doesn't really mater since Oda said OP only has a few years left so it's at least ending while it's still a success.

I think Japanese studios and audience have more respect for the original creator than Hollywood. Based on our experience with western shows, we might assume GT was a failure because it didn't last long. Almost all shonen anime that were adapting a manga have ended with the source material. A few have had a short sequel or spinoff but never an attempt to continue indefinitely. I'm sure all studios are aware that more money could be made if they continue longer but that doesn't seem to be the only factor they consider.

[Matches Malone]

One Piece's manga sales peaked in 2011 and have been declining since then. This might have to do more with the decline of print media in general since OP is still the best selling manga series aside from last year.

Almost all shonen anime that were adapting a manga have ended with the source material. I'm sure all studios are aware that more money could be made if they continue longer but that doesn't seem to be the only factor they consider.

I think the decline was a correction rather than an actual decline, as the number of sales it reached in 2011 was very unnatural.

The mindset back then was to simply let a story end with its author, and if it needed to continue, it'd be for a short period of time. Now however, I think that mindset has changed in favor of keeping a specific brand alive for as long as possible. Boruto is well on its way to reaching 200 episodes, with no signs of slowing down. DB already has a 4th movie green lit, with the manga more than likely continuing past Moro, which means an anime adaption of it is probably not far behind. I'm personally not a fan of this approach, as it takes away from the uniqueness of the original work.

[Skar]

I think the decline was a correction rather than an actual decline, as the number of sales it reached in 2011 was very unnatural.

They were a lot higher than what most manga ever reached but you'll see the trend for other titles.

Spoiler:

Some titles have a huge jump in sales and then start to decline or it's a more steady over time. It's not just manga because you can find this trend in long running Western shows, video games, and film series that have too many sequels. I think a common misconception is that something that's successful will remain as successful indefinitely. They could still make money for a while but everything reaches a peak at some point.

The mindset back then was to simply let a story end with its author, and if it needed to continue, it'd be for a short period of time. Now however, I think that mindset has changed in favor of keeping a specific brand alive for as long as possible. Boruto is well on its way to reaching 200 episodes, with no signs of slowing down. DB already has a 4th movie green lit, with the manga more than likely continuing past Moro, which means an anime adaption of it is probably not far behind. I'm personally not a fan of this approach, as it takes away from the uniqueness of the original work.

Well one example out of countless shonen title might mean it's more of an outlier than a new trend. There's likely a good reason why we don't see more sequels like Boruto after the author's story ended. Boruto began shortly after Naruto like GT and might not reach the number of volumes they're hoping more if they continue to decline with each volume. DBS is a revival which from what I've seen aren't meant to last long. We don't know what's going to happen after Toriyama retires but I don't think fans should treat it as a guarantee it'll continue for years beyond that. The few other examples we've seen point to it most likely declining the longer it goes on.

[Matches Malone]

They were a lot higher than what most manga ever reached but you'll see the trend for other titles.

I think a common misconception is that something that's successful will remain as successful indefinitely.

Boruto began shortly after Naruto like GT and might not reach the number of volumes they're hoping more if they continue to decline with each volume.

We don't know what's going to happen after Toriyama retires but I don't think fans should treat it as a guarantee it'll continue for years beyond that.

The biggest surprise in that chart is Naruto, as despite running for 700 chapters, it still stayed consistent from start to finish. It even managed to bring in good sales in 2015, which was the first year it had no new chapter or volumes due to it ending in 2014.

I think a number of authors make the mistake of going beyond that point, resulting in their series eventually failing. I think it's a good idea for a series to end before, or even just as people are starting to get tired of it, as going beyond that point isn't good for anyone involved.

Based on what I've read, Boruto's author intends for it to be 27 volumes, which I cannot see happening. Story wise, I think both Boruto and modern DB should've stuck to being one time movies instead of trying to be long running series. To me, both Boruto the movie and Battle of Gods felt like perfect end points for their respective series, and continuing past them never felt right to me.

To give an idea on a potential Toriyama-less DB future, Toei and the companies involved tried to get DB back off the ground in 2008, but cancelled all plans in favor of Kai due to Toriyama not wanting to get involved. DB is in a very different position now, thanks in part to Toyotaro being a potential successor and an entire department dedicated to it, so things could turn out differently than before. Personally, DB has gone waaaaaay beyond when it should've ended, so it won't really make a difference to me if they continue or not, but I think it'll be very interesting to see what direction they take. Do they keep things the same and risk people getting burned out ? or do they change everything up so much and risk people not recognizing it ?

[Skar]

DB is in a very different position now, thanks in part to Toyotaro being a potential successor and an entire department dedicated to it, so things could turn out differently than before. Personally, DB has gone waaaaaay beyond when it should've ended, so it won't really make a difference to me if they continue or not, but I think it'll be very interesting to see what direction they take. Do they keep things the same and risk people getting burned out ? or do they change everything up so much and risk people not recognizing it ?

I think it's unlikely they would consider changing the story too much. I'm not saying Toei is incapable of it but usually the point of a revival is to revisit what fans liked most about a series so you expect a lot of fan service and popular characters returning. I think Toyotaro is meant to be taking a more active role and reducing Toriyama's work than becoming a full-on successor. The Moro arc has some new ideas but also a lot that we've seen before. Another common issue of long running series is that they become repetitive the longer they go on.

Since GT already exists as a sequel, that might only make things difficult. GT's producer said that they originally considered having it take place between the Buu saga and EoZ. After a few meetings, they decided it would be disrespectful not to make it a seperate work from Toriyama's manga so they went with it taking place after the end. If Toei does continue on their own, it's unlikely they'll keep writing stories within this timeskip. GT is Toei's sequel but it was created by the staff that would be considered respected senior members now so I don't know if the current staff at Toei would be willing to overwrite it. A lot of people assume it only comes down to money but it's a different culture than what we're used to from Hollywood studios and they seem to put more value in maintaining relationships and respecting their seniors. While GT wasn't as successful as DB/Z, the producer still talked about it while they were proud of the work they've done.

[Matches Malone]

GT is Toei's sequel but it was created by the staff that would be considered respected senior members now so I don't know if the current staff at Toei would be willing to overwrite it. A lot of people assume it only comes down to money but it's a different culture than what we're used to from Hollywood studios and they seem to put more value in maintaining relationships and respecting their seniors.

I honestly never thought of it that way, but considering what I know of Japan, you're completely right. There's definitely far more respect for authors and seniors than in Hollywood and the US in general. I think the only one who'd be able to overwrite it would be Toriyama, as both his age and authority as the original author puts him above everyone else involved with the franchise. He was able to reintroduce Broly without Koyama's blessing, and managed to have Yamammoro replaced with Shintani, 2 things I highly doubt would've been possible had they been attempted by someone else.

[kei17]

Well, according to Kei, GT DVDs sold better than OG DB and Z in Japan, so evidently it was a series that was looked upon more favorably over time than it was during it's initial run on Fuji TV.

I think the Dragon Box GT sold well because GT is the only series you can't read in the manga format. The original manga has a significant presence in Japan, so there was a large demand for a home video release of an anime-only story. I don't know how casual viewers think, but from what I've heard and seen, GT has a very bad reputation among the Japanese fanbase.

Is there a source proving this? Kei never showed one.

I couldn't find the original sources, but here is a list of the home video sales of the DB franchise based on Oricon's data: http://www.someanithing.com/JP_DVDBD_WI ... 83%AB.html

[Planetnamek]

Ratings were pretty solid, but because GT merchandise wasn't really selling all that well Toei saw it as a failure and unlike with previous two DB series it didn't have a Manga to fall back on, so GT getting cut short was inevitable.

It lasted over a year and was the direct follow up to a series that had been going on for a decade, I’d be hard pressed to say it was cut short especially if it was apparently only going to last 40 episodes.

I heard it was supposed to last for at least 20 more episodes.

[Matches Malone]

I heard it was supposed to last for at least 20 more episodes.

GT being any longer or shorter than it was are false rumors with no verified source to back them up.

[Skar]

I honestly never thought of it that way, but considering what I know of Japan, you're completely right. There's definitely far more respect for authors and seniors than in Hollywood and the US in general. I think the only one who'd be able to overwrite it would be Toriyama, as both his age and authority as the original author puts him above everyone else involved with the franchise. He was able to reintroduce Broly without Koyama's blessing, and managed to have Yamammoro replaced with Shintani, 2 things I highly doubt would've been possible had they been attempted by someone else.

That's true but Toriyama still considers EoZ the finale of his story so he might not dictate what they do after unless he asks them to leave the series alone this time. If he does give them the approval to continue, the choice might be up to Toei to overwrite GT. Toei is the highest earning and one of the oldest anime studios in Japan. A company usually learns from their mistakes to survive for that long. I'm sure they're aware it won't be as successful without Toriyama's name attached. I think they would consider the risk of potentially disrespecting the staff that worked on GT only to create another short sequel that may not perform any better.

I heard it was supposed to last for at least 20 more episodes.

Do you remember where you heard this? Kanzenshuu is the #1 source for all things Dragon Ball and where almost all other DB sites and Youtubers get their information. If it hasn't been documented on the main site then it's likely a rumor.

[Planetnamek]

I honestly never thought of it that way, but considering what I know of Japan, you're completely right. There's definitely far more respect for authors and seniors than in Hollywood and the US in general. I think the only one who'd be able to overwrite it would be Toriyama, as both his age and authority as the original author puts him above everyone else involved with the franchise. He was able to reintroduce Broly without Koyama's blessing, and managed to have Yamammoro replaced with Shintani, 2 things I highly doubt would've been possible had they been attempted by someone else.

That's true but Toriyama still considers EoZ the finale of his story so he might not dictate what they do after unless he asks them to leave the series alone this time. If he does give them the approval to continue, the choice might be up to Toei to overwrite GT. Toei is the highest earning and one of the oldest anime studios in Japan. A company usually learns from their mistakes to survive for that long. I'm sure they're aware it won't be as successful without Toriyama's name attached. I think they would consider the risk of potentially disrespecting the staff that worked on GT only to create another short sequel that may not perform any better.

I heard it was supposed to last for at least 20 more episodes.

Do you remember where you heard this? Kanzenshuu is the #1 source for all things Dragon Ball and where almost all other DB sites and Youtubers get their information. If it hasn't been documented on the main site then it's likely a rumor.

I believe I did hear about it on this site on a thread, unfortunately I cannot for the life of me remember exactly which thread I saw it on or when that was.

[Skar]

I believe I did hear about it on this site on a thread, unfortunately I cannot for the life of me remember exactly which thread I saw it on or when that was.

It might've been based on the answer given here because it's the only translation I could find referring to around 20 episodes.

Spoiler:

Midway through the story, enemy characters like Doctor Mu, General Rild, and Baby started popping up, giving a stronger battle tint to the story.
Initially we made about 26 episodes worth of rough plot outlines. But around when the final script for episode 3 was finished, we thought “these travel episodes aren’t going to be interesting no matter how long we keep doing them, are they?” and so we stopped (laughs). That’s why Gill and the spaceship stopped appearing midway through, even though we had sensei go through all the trouble of drawing them for us (laughs).

An old translation might've implied that they intended to have 26 more episodes then the series was cut short. It sounds more like a creative choice here since they were still working on the third episode when they made this decision and likely before GT began airing.

[Hellspawn28]

I do think GT is considered to be the black sheep of the series because it is generally disliked. If GT was successful, they would have kept it going on and had a long run like DB & DBZ did. If GT had the same episode count that DBZ did, GT would have ended in 2003. Toei is a company that loves to milk things to the ground as long if it keeps on selling as seen with Super Sentai.

With Super and the last two DBZ movies, they decided to have the story take place in the 10-year gap instead because the characters are still in their youth and those character designs are still iconic. It would make more sense to do a series in that time era instead of making a sequel to GT. If they made a sequel to GT, most people will avoid it because GT is not very popular. It's pretty obvious that GT, the old DBZ movies, and Super are considered to be set in different continuities. You can still make merchandise for other characters, but still have a new continuity going on at the same time. Just look at the Godzilla franchise for example. That series has different continuities that are not linked with each other, but they still make merchandise for other characters from the franchise.

They can go beyond DBZ and ignore GT, but still make merchandise for GT. I'm pretty sure they will go beyond DBZ and ignore GT completely at some point in the future.

[Skar]

I do think GT is considered to be the black sheep of the series because it is generally disliked. If GT was successful, they would have kept it going on and had a long run like DB & DBZ did. If GT had the same episode count that DBZ did, GT would have ended in 2003. Toei is a company that loves to milk things to the ground as long if it keeps on selling as seen with Super Sentai.

I don't know if Super Sentai would be the best example. There have been over 10,000 anime produced in Japan and only 98 individual series have been longer than the original DB and only 42 were longer than DBZ. While few anime could compare to DBZ's success, there were plenty of anime that were successful enough to continue but didn't because that was the story they wanted to tell. GT's producer said it was important for GT not to drag out DBZ and they had ideas to make it longer but decided against them early on.

[Matches Malone]

If GT was successful, they would have kept it going on and had a long run like DB & DBZ did.

One of GT's producers said they had the ending set when they started, so it seems to have been intended to be a shorter series from the beginning, before they knew how its reception would be. That's not to say it wouldn't have lasted longer had the ratings gone through the roof and if merchandise was flying of shelves, but based on interviews and it having an even 5 cour episode count (65 episodes), it's safe to say they got to tell the story they wanted to. As flawed as GT is, it being short isn't one of them, as dragging things out would've resulted in an even worse show. One of the things GT got right was covering ground that was either new or glossed over in the manga, and I think going beyond that would've resulted in just more of the same, something Super greatly suffers from.