If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

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If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by precita » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:57 pm

So since Dragonball is in some sort of continuous state at the moment despite Super's "hiatus," do you think when Toriyama calls it quits for good again, do you think a theoretically future final episode ending will surpass GT's final episode?

I very much like the idea of the Dragonballs going away due to being misused by Goku and the cast, as well as Goku having to leave permanently. This along with the flash forward to 100 years in the future with Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. fighting in another tournament felt like the best way to end the franchise back in 1997. Now that Super has brought it back, and assuming Super ever jumps ahead in the timeline again to reach EOZ or even GT's era, do you think a final canon ending would surpass this?

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:12 am

GT's ending was decent for it's time given the rather abrupt nature of the manga's ending in it's final chapter which was sort of smoothed to some extent in the kanzenban version, even with the rather ambiguous note of things like where Goku went after defeating the remaining Evil Dragon. My own personal head canon/fan theory is that by absorbing the Dragon Balls into his body while flying away with Shen Long he potentially ascended to some higher form or special status of existence (immortality.etc) though it's all open to interpretation. That said, if they come to a future final episode assuming Toriyama hangs it up it will be interesting to see what they do.

Not sure how they're going to do an end when Super comes back at some point in the future as GT's was good in it's own right, though i guess we'll see where it goes.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:14 am

I don't think so, as GT's ending was as perfect as an ending for DB could be. GT also had the benefit of ending after the heroes Goku fought the dragon balls themselves, making everything come full circle.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:23 am

the original manga's ending was better then gt's, so tbh, yeah probably.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:08 pm

No, for the simple reason that, once it was clear ratings were not going to pick up, GT was interested in being an ending to the franchise. The only other time I can see anyone being interested in ending Dragon Ball is when Toriyama decided to wrap up the original manga (which was also a perfectly fine ending).

I don't see Toei or Shueisha EVER wanting to give Dragon Ball a true ending again. At best, we'll have an episode that ends Super and says goodbye to some of the cast, maybe even Goku (very unlikely); the result would be a good ending to Super, but it wouldn't be the definitive franchise farewell that GT's ending was.
With the money Dragon Ball makes, they'll never make a true ending again if they can help it. The closest we'll get is dry spells like the one we've been in since Broly came out. (In fact, I'd guess endings along the lines of Super #131 and the ending of Broly are the only kind of closure/ending we're likely to get for the forseeable; an ending to the current story that leaves enough unresolved for the next story to have some stuff to play with)

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, though.

Granted, it's easy to see this pretty cynically, but the way I see it, it just gives more value to the early stuff. The DB/Z/GT anime, and the Dragon Ball manga, has a beginning, a middle, and an end*. The modern era of Kai, Super, and everything that hasn't come out yet, is perpetual. Some would argue a story needs an ending to have meaning; I would argue it depends on the story. Dragon Ball's individual stories all are given meaning by both their own endings, and what came before and after them, so there doesn't really need to be an overall ending, even though endings can be very nice.
For anyone who does like their stories to end, the original pre-2008 media isn't going anywhere, and if anything, stories like GT are gaining more and more value for how different they are to the modern stories, particularly in regards to actually having an ending. Meanwhile, those who prefer these things to just keep going can enjoy Super.

*If you ask me, these don't line up at all with the series breakpoints, however; the beginning of Dragon Ball is Pilaf to Red Ribbon, the middle is 22nd Tenkaichi to Namek, and the end is Androids to Evil Dragons.

One thing doesn't have to be bad for another thing to be good (and vice versa); they can just serve different niches. I feel like this is something a lot of fandoms, as a whole, need to learn.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:19 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:08 pm
Once it was clear ratings were not going to pick up, GT was interested in being an ending to the franchise.
That's not exactly the case. Although the ratings probably played some part in it being short, the ending was planned from the very beginning according to the writers.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by TobyS » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:21 pm

Yeah people wank gt's ending but it doesn't exist outside the context of the rest of the series.

All the little cameos of other characters and stuff was deeply cynical when they hadn't bothered to use those characters up until now.
Same as when unceremoniously murdered Piccolo for no reason. Just like guard the BSDB's dude there's no need to die jesus.

The ending all revolves around the DB's but other then clean up they haven't really been a prime mover of the plot since Freeza. They were just a tool. Super for it's faults and it's super DB's bought them back in line as seriously relevant, swapping Gokus body, restoring entire universes etc.

They should have let Goku be an adult for the last few seconds, we aren't even saying goodbye to the real true version of Goku. It's like watching Goku die in Ginyus body. It'd be sad but weird and distracting.

The whole thing only happened because of the plothole nonsense of the blackstar dragonballs being able to affect stuff beyond Piccolos power which is not how it's supposed to work.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:30 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:19 pm
Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:08 pm
Once it was clear ratings were not going to pick up, GT was interested in being an ending to the franchise.
That's not exactly the case. Although the ratings probably played some part in it being short, the ending was planned from the very beginning according to the writers.
They had ideas about the final shot and where they'd like to end it, yes, but they didn't plan the entirety of GT around that ending, and regardless of what the writers wanted to do, Toei likely would never have greenlit GT if their goal wasn't to prolong Dragon Ball, likely with the intent that it would last quite some time (probably they hoped for the same kind of ratings boost as the "Z" rebranding). If GT had been a success on TV, probably those writers' plans for the ending either wouldn't have happened for a number of years, or never would have happened at all (if it lasted long enough for all those writers to leave and get replaced, or if it only ended to make way for a new series/spinoff of some sort, and therefore Toei would want to keep Goku and everyone else around).

I think it's fairly clear that, while the first 40 episodes were a continuation of Dragon Ball, the last 24 (made after it became clear ratings were not going to pick up) were known to be the final 24, and thus were supposed to be an ending of sorts. So, the writers did the best ending they could.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:09 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:30 pm
They had ideas about the final shot and where they'd like to end it, yes, but they didn't plan the entirety of GT around that ending, and regardless of what the writers wanted to do, Toei likely would never have greenlit GT if their goal wasn't to prolong Dragon Ball
Exactly. They planned what the ending was, not when it would occur.
TobyS wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:21 pm
All the little cameos of other characters and stuff was deeply cynical when they hadn't bothered to use those characters up until now.
Same as when unceremoniously murdered Piccolo for no reason. Just like guard the BSDB's dude there's no need to die jesus.

The ending all revolves around the DB's but other then clean up they haven't really been a prime mover of the plot since Freeza. They were just a tool. Super for it's faults and it's super DB's bought them back in line as seriously relevant, swapping Gokus body, restoring entire universes etc.

They should have let Goku be an adult for the last few seconds, we aren't even saying goodbye to the real true version of Goku. It's like watching Goku die in Ginyus body. It'd be sad but weird and distracting.

The whole thing only happened because of the plothole nonsense of the blackstar dragonballs being able to affect stuff beyond Piccolos power which is not how it's supposed to work.
Almost everything you've said her is just odd and way off base.

I can't for the life of me figure out what your issue is with the final arc being centered around the Dragon Balls.

I don't know how bringing back old characters for cameos is cynical.

Young Goku IS Goku. it's not like watching him in Ginyu's body.

Plot holes don't matter. How is it "supposed to work"?
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:20 pm

I have two main predictions for the end:

1) The power of ALL Dragon Balls is drained to defeat/seal the final villain;

-OR-

2) All Gods sacrifice their powers to defeat/seal the final villain, becoming mortals.

I think one of the above 2 will happen, as Super has constantly revolved around the theme of the Gods and their divine powers. Though I do not want the Gods and their godly artifacts to become weak and lose everything, I think it is inevitable that the God hierarchy will forever be changed by the time the series ends. The whole plotline revolving around the Gods will need a definitive closure, and I think that the Gods losing much of their powers (via the Dragon Balls) or losing their God status altogether would make for a sufficient closure.

But enough theorycrafting. Yes, personally an ending of Super would feel very emotional, much more than the ending of GT. I mean, I got emotional when the ToP arc ended, and it was not even the end of Super (as the narrator literally tells you it is just a brief parting, plus the Broly movie was already announced). But I still got somewhat emotional, because I really enjoy Super and have a lot of good memories associated to it.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:37 pm

I can’t imagine what a “permanent ending” would look like at this point. The fact that we’re still placing stories within the time skip suggests that Toriyama still considers Goku flying off with Oob to be the proper ending. Outside of killing off Goku, which is what GT seemed to do, I don’t see how else you can really cap off the story.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by Shaddy » Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:41 pm

I mean...is it good?

There's no window of opportunity for Dragon Ball being good that's closed forever. Anything that's bad about the series is only bad because someone made it that way. Having a canon permanent ending is values-neutral, it's good if they make it good, and it's bad if they don't.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by kyppk » Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:29 pm

I imagine the most likely scenario is EoZ being the definitive ending, but if they were to make a new ending I imagine it would be something along the lines of Goku becoming the strongest and having Zeno or the Super Dragon Balls reset the world so he could live it all again.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:40 pm

Yes, but then again I never cared for GT's ending. Just came across as too schmaltzy and depressing, with the idea that Goku's family and friends will never see him again, not to mention that it doesn't make sense for Shenron to leave Earth when he's a servant of Dende, and Dende could just deactivate or destroy the Dragon Balls so that they can never be used again. Z's ending is not perfect, but at least it's not depressing. Goku takes Uub under his wing, but it's not like he's going to abandon his family and friends forever. If anything, I hope Toriyama sticks with that ending since it's more in line with his style.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:57 pm

8000 Saiyan wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:40 pm
Yes, but then again I never cared for GT's ending. Just came across as too schmaltzy and depressing, with the idea that Goku's family and friends will never see him again, not to mention that it doesn't make sense for Shenron to leave Earth when he's a servant of Dende, and Dende could just deactivate or destroy the Dragon Balls so that they can never be used again. Z's ending is not perfect, but at least it's not depressing. Goku takes Uub under his wing, but it's not like he's going to abandon his family and friends forever. If anything, I hope Toriyama sticks with that ending since it's more in line with his style.
Shen Long isn't a servant of Dende. He was created by Dende, but he's not his servant. He has a nature and it's to grant wishes within his power, not do his creator's bidding. And after using the DB's so much, there has to be a cost.

Goku may die, but I don't see that as depressing. Goku goes out saving his home and the people he loves. He saves the world one final time.

Things end. And there's a lesson to be had there. Considering how little the show gets sentimental, it has the right at the end to get "schmaltzy". You say schmaltzy, I say heartfelt.
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:38 pm

Shenlong operating independently at the end is a return to his pre-Piccolo writing, when he was his own god unconnected to any higher beings.

I agree about GT's ending being too sentimental, because it doesn't feel earned. It works well enough on its own, but if you try and connect DB and DBZ to it, it falls apart. It's like, wow that was great, it's over, but what happened to the real ending? Also GT stands so far apart from DB/DBZ in its own little world that it feels like a whole other series ending. They don't really reconcile in my view.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:48 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:38 pm
Shenlong operating independently at the end is a return to his pre-Piccolo writing, when he was his own god unconnected to any higher beings.

I agree about GT's ending being too sentimental, because it doesn't feel earned. It works well enough on its own, but if you try and connect DB and DBZ to it, it falls apart. It's like, wow that was great, it's over, but what happened to the real ending? Also GT stands so far apart from DB/DBZ in its own little world that it feels like a whole other series ending. They don't really reconcile in my view.
He was always independent. Three different beings created their own dragon but they didn't control them. When was Shen Long an agent of Dende or Kami?

Care to explain why you think the ending doesn't feel earned?
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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:00 pm

Shenlong definitely seemed more powerful and independent than usual in the end of GT. He was not only able to just leave Earth without any say from Dende, but he also was apparently able to just revive people he’s already brought back before, like Kuririn, and was able to just meld the Dragon Balls into Goku or something (I still don’t get the meaning behind that).

Actually, the more I think about it, GT’s ending is perhaps more vague than it needs to be, and not all of it makes sense. The only clear idea it seems to convey is that Goku is no longer alive, but it’s not explained why he rides off with Shenlong, why Goku doesn’t question this, why the Dragon Balls go inside him, or why he’s an adult when he shows up at the end to watch the Tenkaichi Budokai.

The ending of GT works much more on an emotional level than anything else. It’s much more thematically fitting for the series to end with Goku flying off on Shenlong, than him flying off to train some kid we’ve just met, and the idea that he’ll never see his friends and family again makes the ending bittersweet enough to be catch people’s attention. Finally, there’s that clip show montage that really tries to tuck at people’s heartstrings.

In comparison, the manga’s ending is much more simple, and serves to remind the audience that at his core, Goku is a guy who really loves fighting, but it doesn’t have nearly as big a sense of finality to it. It’s more of an “and the adventure continues” ending.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:08 am

Shenlong may not have been under God's control, but he was bound to him. He couldn't grant certain wishes based on God's power, he dies when God dies, etc. This wasn't the case earlier in the series, when Shenlong had no creator and there were no limits to his power.

When I say that the GT ending feels unearned, I mean that something feels missing. Perhaps because the series itself doesn't measure up to its predecessors. The ending feels like it only halfway works. Satisfying maybe, but only by force.

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Re: If Dragonball gets a canon permanent ending again, will it be better than GT's ending?

Post by DBPirate » Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:58 pm

It wouldn't take much for it to surpass GT's ending, personally speaking. Wasn't a fan of the whole merging with Shenron and then becoming some sort of immortal being thing. I hope that wouldn't be the direction they went in if they ever decided to "end" the story again.
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