Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
The longer an anime & manga franchise goes, the worse it becomes in my opinion. I'm surprise that so many people watch Detective Conan because I hear the main character is still a kid. A show like that should have been at least 3 seasons long at max.
Oof, I remember enjoying that one on Adult Swim when I was like 12 and was surprised that it was like One Piece level in length. Especially for a show that I seem to recall being fairly episodic
A part of me is actually impressed by by the fact that Detective Conan has been running since early 1994. I wouldn't have the creativity to write even a single compelling mystery story, never mind make up new mysteries for almost 30 years. It demonstrates a type of intelligence and a capacity for abstract, outside-the-box thinking that I don't have myself.
With that said, there's no way in hell I'd ever read the manga or watch the anime. The manga began when I was in kindergarten. It's hard to imagine it not becoming insanely repetitive eventually, even if I did watch the first 10~ episodes a long time ago and enjoyed them.
Princess Snake avatars courtesy of Kunzait, Chibi Goku avatar from Velasa.
Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:43 pm
I think the only real problem with Dragonball was that the only real solution to any threat was to throw more power at it. I think this start at the Piccolo Arc in DB. Both Piccolo's defeat did come down to using a crazy technique but only after using some new higher power to whittle them down. I think this is a problem with most shonen of that era and slightly later. The best parts of The Namek and Andriod stuff was having to play Cat and Mouse between the heroes and villains. I just really wished things could have been mixed up by just having enemies with weird powers that had to be countered differently.
Personally that only really works when the only type of arc you do is the "Villain Arc", started by Daimao and used in literally every single arc in Z. Toriyama isn't really someone to really focus on, say, examining the mentality of a character and having them change over the course of the arc that proves to be the main point of that story. Which unfortunately puts a restriction on what types of stories you can tell.
That being said, you still need to get good opposition from somewhere, but IMO Dragon Ball didn't really have that problem either if you knew where to look. In particular, the East, West and South galaxies have been totally unexplored, and Super's introduction of different universes is also very useful, as proven in the Tournament of Power.
Unfortunately IMO, this was heavily eroded by introducing the Gods of Destruction, Angels and Zeno, who are by default more powerful than anything else, so the story is constantly having to bend over backwards to excuse why they aren't doing anything so that some facsimile of tension can be attempted.
Lord Beerus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:06 pmBy the time the Majin Boo arc went in full swing, Toriyama was burned out as you could tell from the increasingly haphazard storytelling and rough looking art. He was done with Dragon Ball and ended it at the right time before he turned it into a franchise zombie. And as seen with GT and Super, you can't get good milk from a dead cow.
I think the best direction for the franchise following the original manga was standalone stories here and there, rather than trying to have it continue being on-going like what GT did and what Super is currently doing.
Lord Beerus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:06 pmBy the time the Majin Boo arc went in full swing, Toriyama was burned out as you could tell from the increasingly haphazard storytelling and rough looking art. He was done with Dragon Ball and ended it at the right time before he turned it into a franchise zombie. And as seen with GT and Super, you can't get good milk from a dead cow.
I think the best direction for the franchise following the original manga was standalone stories here and there, rather than trying to have it continue being on-going like what GT did and what Super is currently doing.
I think a continuation would have worked, but they clearly needed more time to plot things out. Dragon Balls in Space can definitely work, but the Black Star Arc suffers from a defined direction (especially when transitioning to Baby) and a clearly-defined villain who's also after the Dragon Balls. The Pilaf Arc got away with the lack of one in the manga because we were just meeting and learning about all these characters, and the Goku/Bulma dynamic worked really well, but post-Z that doesn't work anymore.
Lord Beerus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:06 pmBy the time the Majin Boo arc went in full swing, Toriyama was burned out as you could tell from the increasingly haphazard storytelling and rough looking art. He was done with Dragon Ball and ended it at the right time before he turned it into a franchise zombie. And as seen with GT and Super, you can't get good milk from a dead cow.
I think the best direction for the franchise following the original manga was standalone stories here and there, rather than trying to have it continue being on-going like what GT did and what Super is currently doing.
I think a continuation would have worked, but they clearly needed more time to plot things out. Dragon Balls in Space can definitely work, but the Black Star Arc suffers from a defined direction (especially when transitioning to Baby) and a clearly-defined villain who's also after the Dragon Balls. The Pilaf Arc got away with the lack of one in the manga because we were just meeting and learning about all these characters, and the Goku/Bulma dynamic worked really well, but post-Z that doesn't work anymore.
I don't agree with this at all. For one planning is highly overrated and why does a character going after the DB's not work post. It's a clearly defined and easily understood goal. I'm not sure how clarity is in any way negative.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Matches Malone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:07 am
I think the best direction for the franchise following the original manga was standalone stories here and there, rather than trying to have it continue being on-going like what GT did and what Super is currently doing.
I think a continuation would have worked, but they clearly needed more time to plot things out. Dragon Balls in Space can definitely work, but the Black Star Arc suffers from a defined direction (especially when transitioning to Baby) and a clearly-defined villain who's also after the Dragon Balls. The Pilaf Arc got away with the lack of one in the manga because we were just meeting and learning about all these characters, and the Goku/Bulma dynamic worked really well, but post-Z that doesn't work anymore.
I don't agree with this at all. For one planning is highly overrated and why does a character going after the DB's not work post. It's a clearly defined and easily understood goal. I'm not sure how clarity is in any way negative.
I'm a bit confused by that statement. I don't understand how planning out how your story will began, progress and end is "overrated". Planning out you narrative is Storytelling 101. This isn't to say that you have to do it, as some writers work better when they're improvising, but that idea that you take the necessary time to know how you're going to tell your story is "highly overrated" kinda mystifies me and comes across a bit insulting to writers who take the time figure how how they want to craft and develop their narrative and reap the rewards for it with a well told story.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Because things change, better ideas almost innevitably arrive, and stories should be organic. Planning is not storytelling 101 - set up, conflict, and payoff are. It doesn't matter if you get there through meticulous planning or by the seat of your pants or some combo all that matters is that you've made the audience want something and then resolve it in a satisfactory manner. If DB were planned out all in advance, I doubt characters like Vegeta would've stayed in the narrative for as long as he did. I'm not insulting any writer in fact I'm doing the opposite. Most don't plan out that far in advance. They will just pay attention to what they wrote, and find the next step and also pay attention to what is working. Is a character popping they didn't anticipate? Do these two characters have a chemistry the writer(s) found along the way?
SO much great writing is not planned out that far in advance if at all.
The reason I say it's overrated is because there are so many examples of plans getting thrown out for a better idea ("I am your father", Jessie wasn't supposed to make it past season 1 of Breaking Bad and Kim Wexler wasn't supposed to be a long running major character in Better Call Saul, and Dragon Ball itself) as well as seeing what happens when you plan too much (marvel's netflix shows, GoT, the Snyder's DCEU, Young Justice). And far too often I see people here and lots of other places claim that bad writing boiled down to the writers not having a plan. Plan's aren't all they're made out to be because plans rarely survive contact with the enemy.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
I believe planning is important, but it shouldn't prevent an author from taking a different road if a better idea comes up. I also think the planning shouldn't be too far ahead, as it can end up taking away from the story currently being told.
Planning if fine but it's primarily a method of saving time. I don't think DB would've lasted as long as it did had Toriyama planned things out. Imagine if he had stubbornly went with his original idea for the Cyborgs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:20 pm
Planning if fine but it's primarily a method of saving time. I don't think DB would've lasted as long as it did had Toriyama planned things out. Imagine if he had stubbornly went with his original idea for the Cyborgs.
This is a good example I think. 19 and 20 were incredibly lame villains especially coming off Freeza being pressured to switch them out and then switch out 17 and 18 for Cell was the best direction for the story to go.
And even though it wasn’t planned out aside from Trunks specifying 19 and 20 in the manga it still feels organic “oh the timeline was changed so Gero initially tried to send him and his assistant out at first instead, another one of his creations came from a third timeline because he needs Cyborg 17 and 18 who weren’t available in his timeline”
A great example of Toriyama not planning something but just paying attention to his own continuity is when the architecture on Namek looks like Piccolo's Daimao's.
Planning somethings is fine and I agree that if you plan don't plan too far in advance (man plans and god laughs). Coincidentally this example also involves Piccolo - is when he sets up Piccolo and Kami speaking an alien language. I don't know if he knew when he would pay it off but I think he knew at that point they were aliens and he'd get to their homeworld. In this case I think it worked really well
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
I honestly wonder if things would have been different if Toriyama wasn't burnt out by drawing the manga by 1995...and if he created Beerus/Whis way back then.
Imagine if DBZ ended with Goku Vs. Beerus and it just stopped there (I dunno if GT would have still happened or not). Feels like the existence of a God and promise of other universes would have been a nice way to leave the series with. I remember back in 2013 after the movie aired before we knew we would get more after that people had that feeling.
The purpose of planning is giving yourself a roadmap for where you want your story to go, and deviation suits some writers' styles but not others. The last 3 seasons of Game of Thrones weren't as good because Benioff and Weiss aren't go with the flow writers and had no source material. Toriyama had the advantage of being in his prime and writing about his own world.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula
Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:44 pm
The purpose of planning is giving yourself a roadmap for where you want your story to go, and deviation suits some writers' styles but not others. The last 3 seasons of Game of Thrones weren't as good because Benioff and Weiss aren't go with the flow writers and had no source material. Toriyama had the advantage of being in his prime and writing about his own world.
They clearly had a plan and went with it regardless of whether that had done the leg work along the way. They hit some planned plot points and called it a day. They did set things up but they didn't pay them off in ways that felt organic or cathartic which is the whole point of telling a story, not checking plot points off a list. It's pretty clear to me they knew where they were heading.
Here's the issue I have with the road map analogy, it implies there's a correct endpoint, but stories can go anywhere.
Planning is mostly a time saving strategy. That's been my experience.
One of the things I like about the way Toriyama structures things is he creates a story arc then moves on. Some slide right into the next, others don't but there's mostly a sense of completion at the end instead of just a continual advertisement for the next one. I typically prefer that to having one giant overall arc. It's more fulfilling and one factor that I think contributed to DB's staying power.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
It does feel odd to me because i was used to anime going on forever like One Piece, Detective Conan, Pokemon etc. So to find an anime that has an actual ending was a shock to me at the time.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku
11 years is a really good run. A lot of series' don't even have more than 13 episodes.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
precita wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:13 pm
I honestly wonder if things would have been different if Toriyama wasn't burnt out by drawing the manga by 1995...and if he created Beerus/Whis way back then.
Imagine if DBZ ended with Goku Vs. Beerus and it just stopped there (I dunno if GT would have still happened or not). Feels like the existence of a God and promise of other universes would have been a nice way to leave the series with. I remember back in 2013 after the movie aired before we knew we would get more after that people had that feeling.
I’ve always felt that if you can’t get behind the ending of the original manga and don’t like GT’s ending (or don’t like GT and it’s ending is irrelevant) Battle of Gods is the perfect ending.
Especially since as of now Super doesn’t leave with much of a solid ending. Neither episode 131 or Super Broli offer much finality.
Planetnamek wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:07 pm
It does feel odd to me because i was used to anime going on forever like One Piece, Detective Conan, Pokemon etc. So to find an anime that has an actual ending was a shock to me at the time.
I guess I had the exact opposite experience. While I knew anime could be long, especially the ones that found themselves on kids tv, I was also used to them ending. Pokemon being the exception. Digimon ended but kept “rebooting”’itself. Sailor Moon I knew had one final series to get translated into English and it was a few years before I accepted that wasn’t ever happening. (At that time) Tenchi Muyo all 3 series combined was like 65 episodes. Case Closed, I only fairly recently learned Detective Conan was One Piece level in length since Funimation’s dub on Adult Swim only lasted around 50 episodes. And I was at least somewhat aware of other anime series with fairly short runs lile
Fooly Cooly, Big O, and Cowboy Bebop.
Dragon Ball just seem like a standard “long but eventually ends” anime to me. Nothing like other series that refuse to go away and die like Pokemon and One Piece.
precita wrote: ↑Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:13 pm
I honestly wonder if things would have been different if Toriyama wasn't burnt out by drawing the manga by 1995...and if he created Beerus/Whis way back then.
Imagine if DBZ ended with Goku Vs. Beerus and it just stopped there (I dunno if GT would have still happened or not). Feels like the existence of a God and promise of other universes would have been a nice way to leave the series with. I remember back in 2013 after the movie aired before we knew we would get more after that people had that feeling.
I’ve always felt that if you can’t get behind the ending of the original manga and don’t like GT’s ending (or don’t like GT and it’s ending is irrelevant) Battle of Gods is the perfect ending.
Especially since as of now Super doesn’t leave with much of a solid ending. Neither episode 131 or Super Broli offer much finality.
Planetnamek wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:07 pm
It does feel odd to me because i was used to anime going on forever like One Piece, Detective Conan, Pokemon etc. So to find an anime that has an actual ending was a shock to me at the time.
I guess I had the exact opposite experience. While I knew anime could be long, especially the ones that found themselves on kids tv, I was also used to them ending. Pokemon being the exception. Digimon ended but kept “rebooting”’itself. Sailor Moon I knew had one final series to get translated into English and it was a few years before I accepted that wasn’t ever happening. (At that time) Tenchi Muyo all 3 series combined was like 65 episodes. Case Closed, I only fairly recently learned Detective Conan was One Piece level in length since Funimation’s dub on Adult Swim only lasted around 50 episodes. And I was at least somewhat aware of other anime series with fairly short runs lile
Fooly Cooly, Big O, and Cowboy Bebop.
Dragon Ball just seem like a standard “long but eventually ends” anime to me. Nothing like other series that refuse to go away and die like Pokemon and One Piece.
It just blows my mind that both of the latter are somehow still around and going to this very day, especially considering One Piece and Pokemon are now 21 and 23 years old respectively in terms of the shows. They've got episode counts (exceeding or almost exceeding 1000 total in that span of time) the likes of which most animes never come even remotely close to. At the time they made their respective debuts in Japan it was Dragon Ball which had one of the highest numbers of episodes over the course of 11 years from 1986 to 1997 between the original series, DBZ and GT at 508 total.
DB collection related goals as of now:
1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:08 pm
It just blows my mind that both of the latter are somehow still around and going to this very day, especially considering One Piece and Pokemon are now 21 and 23 years old respectively in terms of the shows. They've got episode counts (exceeding or almost exceeding 1000 total in that span of time) the likes of which most animes never come even remotely close to. At the time they made their respective debuts in Japan it was Dragon Ball which had one of the highest numbers of episodes over the course of 11 years from 1986 to 1997 between the original series, DBZ and GT at 508 total.
I think Toriyama is ultimately more of an influence there when comparing Dragon Ball to One Piece. The fact of the matter is that Oda has not burnt out on One Piece nearly as fast as Toriyama did for Dragon Ball; if Toriyama hadn't done that then Dragon Ball would have certainly went on for a longer period of time.
Pokémon meanwhile has a lot of circumstance behind its success: outside of being well-made for being a video game adaptation with a writer who wanted some proper storylines, it's based on one of the biggest media properties of all time and writes in the footsteps of the games which still remain popular to this day. The success of the anime is directly tied to that of the games.