Early Buu Saga (Great Saiyaman)...A High Point in Popularity?

[precita]

Seeing adult Gohan was a big deal at the time. We saw Gohan for a kid for so long and seeing a big time skip was unheard of in the series at the time.

16 is an adult now?

Yes.

[MyVisionity]

I just watched all 120 episodes of Batman 66 and I kinda wish I hadn't as like the Great Saiyaman, the joke wears thing very quickly. This wasn't a return to Toriyama's gag manga roots as at least Goku and Bulma did stuff and there were obstacles that stood in their way.

I guess maybe that's why 66 only lasted as long as it did. Had they done it seriously, they might have gotten a few more years out of it.

I never thought that Saiyaman was supposed to be a gag or explicitly comedic. There was humor involved sure, but I saw Gohan's crimefighting and identity as simply a plot device.

[Jord]

Are we just assuming that the ratings peaked with these episodes becaused they liked this story that much? I don't think that's what was going on at all.

I just watched all 120 episodes of Batman 66 and I kinda wish I hadn't as like the Great Saiyaman, the joke wears thing very quickly. This wasn't a return to Toriyama's gag manga roots as at least Goku and Bulma did stuff and there were obstacles that stood in their way.

I can see how you make the comparison to Batman 66 and I agree to a certain extent. However, because each 2 Batman episodes were a self contained story that followed certain beats, there is a fair amount of repetition when you watch them short after another.
The great Saiyaman could divert and evolve it's story.

[MasenkoHA]

I guess if 9/10 year old Gohan at the Cell Games is "Teen Gohan", then apparently 16 is adult.

What if I said both are equally dumb? And whoever came up with Teen Gohan should be flogged for it? Especially since 12-15 year old Goku is called Kid Goku (which is also incredibly dumb and annoying but for a different reason)

[coola]

I guess if 9/10 year old Gohan at the Cell Games is "Teen Gohan", then apparently 16 is adult.

What if I said both are equally dumb? And whoever came up with Teen Gohan should be flogged for it? Especially since 12-15 year old Goku is called Kid Goku (which is also incredibly dumb and annoying but for a different reason)

If i remember correctly, all those names came from Budokai games, but, instead of Gohan (Saiyan) and Gohan (Cell Games) we had Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan.

[ABED]

Are we just assuming that the ratings peaked with these episodes becaused they liked this story that much? I don't think that's what was going on at all.

I just watched all 120 episodes of Batman 66 and I kinda wish I hadn't as like the Great Saiyaman, the joke wears thing very quickly. This wasn't a return to Toriyama's gag manga roots as at least Goku and Bulma did stuff and there were obstacles that stood in their way.

I can see how you make the comparison to Batman 66 and I agree to a certain extent. However, because each 2 Batman episodes were a self contained story that followed certain beats, there is a fair amount of repetition when you watch them short after another.
The great Saiyaman could divert and evolve it's story.

I get the difference. I also know why they followed that in the formula in Batman. The great saiyaman stuff did end up getting away from it to its benefit.

I guess maybe that's why 66 only lasted as long as it did. Had they done it seriously, they might have gotten a few more years out of it.

I never thought that Saiyaman was supposed to be a gag or explicitly comedic. There was humor involved sure, but I saw Gohan's crimefighting and identity as simply a plot device.

It's not the humor Batman 66 that was the issue it's the formula and the story that doesn't change or progress.

The great Saiyaman episodes are absolutely meant to be funny. What is the plot you're referring to?

[MasenkoHA]

I guess maybe that's why 66 only lasted as long as it did. Had they done it seriously, they might have gotten a few more years out of it.

There was no way they were ever going to make it serious and pull it off successfully. Especially since the comics didn’t start getting serious until the 70s. That brief pulpy avenger in the shadows beginning when the character started didn’t last nearly as long as people seem to think.

I never thought that Saiyaman was supposed to be a gag or explicitly comedic. There was humor involved sure, but I saw Gohan's crimefighting and identity as simply a plot device.

Gohan becomes a crime fighter by dressing in a stupid costume (that everyone tells him is stupid so we know it was intentionally designed to look stupid by Toriyama) and acts over dramatic and makes stupid poses. It was absolutely conceived as joke. As I think Abed said before there really is no reason for Gohan to need a double identity its just an excuse to lead to the joke.

[MyVisionity]

I guess maybe that's why 66 only lasted as long as it did. Had they done it seriously, they might have gotten a few more years out of it.

There was no way they were ever going to make it serious and pull it off successfully. Especially since the comics didn’t start getting serious until the 70s. That brief pulpy avenger in the shadows beginning when the character started didn’t last nearly as long as people seem to think.

The comic books had already started to become more serious in '64 with the New Look era. Not as serious as a few years later, but Batman and Robin were once again detectives in the shadows. Aside from that, even during the sillier eras in the books it was always played straight. The tv show could definitely have been made without the camp, had they wanted.

The great Saiyaman episodes are absolutely meant to be funny. What is the plot you're referring to?

I know there is of course humor, but it wasn't *completely* for laughs. Gohan fighting criminals was also played seriously in the episodes. Those were just the plots, not necessarily gags. As well as the plots involving Videl discovering Gohan's identity. The Saiyaman was driving the story along. It wasn't just a gag.

[ABED]

I guess maybe that's why 66 only lasted as long as it did. Had they done it seriously, they might have gotten a few more years out of it.

There was no way they were ever going to make it serious and pull it off successfully. Especially since the comics didn’t start getting serious until the 70s. That brief pulpy avenger in the shadows beginning when the character started didn’t last nearly as long as people seem to think.

The comic books had already started to become more serious in '64 with the New Look era. Not as serious as a few years later, but Batman and Robin were once again detectives in the shadows. Aside from that, even during the sillier eras in the books it was always played straight. The tv show could definitely have been made without the camp, had they wanted.

The great Saiyaman episodes are absolutely meant to be funny. What is the plot you're referring to?

I know there is of course humor, but it wasn't *completely* for laughs. Gohan fighting criminals was also played seriously in the episodes. Those were just the plots, not necessarily gags. As well as the plots involving Videl discovering Gohan's identity. The Saiyaman was driving the story along. It wasn't just a gag.

It is played for laughs. There's no danger or stakes. Gohan is playing superhero and no crook has any chance against him. He's dressing up and dancing funny. And Videl trying to find his identity is absolutely played for laughs. It's practically a romcom.

[Jackalope89]

There was no way they were ever going to make it serious and pull it off successfully. Especially since the comics didn’t start getting serious until the 70s. That brief pulpy avenger in the shadows beginning when the character started didn’t last nearly as long as people seem to think.

The comic books had already started to become more serious in '64 with the New Look era. Not as serious as a few years later, but Batman and Robin were once again detectives in the shadows. Aside from that, even during the sillier eras in the books it was always played straight. The tv show could definitely have been made without the camp, had they wanted.

The great Saiyaman episodes are absolutely meant to be funny. What is the plot you're referring to?

I know there is of course humor, but it wasn't *completely* for laughs. Gohan fighting criminals was also played seriously in the episodes. Those were just the plots, not necessarily gags. As well as the plots involving Videl discovering Gohan's identity. The Saiyaman was driving the story along. It wasn't just a gag.

It is played for laughs. There's no danger or stakes. Gohan is playing superhero and no crook has any chance against him. He's dressing up and dancing funny. And Videl trying to find his identity is absolutely played for laughs. It's practically a romcom.

...I see no issue here.

Honestly, the Great Saiyaman mini-arc is my favorite part of the series simply for how silly it is. Kind of like a parody/high school adaptation of Superman and Lois.

...I really don't want to get into the current direction of Supes right now. Bendis ruined it for me.

[ABED]

That wasn't a criticism. It was just me calling a spade a spade. Videl trying to find out GS's identity is meant to be funny.

I'm all for silliness but at least be funny and don't wear out your welcome.

[MyVisionity]

It is played for laughs. There's no danger or stakes. Gohan is playing superhero and no crook has any chance against him. He's dressing up and dancing funny. And Videl trying to find his identity is absolutely played for laughs. It's practically a romcom.

I saw plenty of danger/stakes in each Saiyaman episode. The crimes were treated seriously and Gohan's struggles weren't played for laughs. Just because the audience knows how powerful Gohan is doesn't mean the threats are played for laughs. Dancing funny is only part of it, the seriousness is still there.

I don't remember Videl seeking his identity as being simply a gag. There was humor involved, naturally, but it was still a genuine issue in the plot.

[ABED]

It is played for laughs. There's no danger or stakes. Gohan is playing superhero and no crook has any chance against him. He's dressing up and dancing funny. And Videl trying to find his identity is absolutely played for laughs. It's practically a romcom.

I saw plenty of danger/stakes in each Saiyaman episode. The crimes were treated seriously and Gohan's struggles weren't played for laughs. Just because the audience knows how powerful Gohan is doesn't mean the threats are played for laughs. Dancing funny is only part of it, the seriousness is still there.

I don't remember Videl seeking his identity as being simply a gag. There was humor involved, naturally, but it was still a genuine issue in the plot.

They were all played for laughs. Gohan thinks it's all serious and that's the joke. There is no danger bc Gohan is so strong. It's not serious at all. The characters in Batman 66 played it all super serious and that's the joke. What was the danger for Gohan in fighting crooks?

It's all supposed to be funny. What genuine issue is there? What happens if she finds out his identity? He'll be mildly inconvenienced and that's the joke.

[MyVisionity]

I saw plenty of danger/stakes in each Saiyaman episode. The crimes were treated seriously and Gohan's struggles weren't played for laughs. Just because the audience knows how powerful Gohan is doesn't mean the threats are played for laughs. Dancing funny is only part of it, the seriousness is still there.

I don't remember Videl seeking his identity as being simply a gag. There was humor involved, naturally, but it was still a genuine issue in the plot.

They were all played for laughs. Gohan thinks it's all serious and that's the joke. There is no danger bc Gohan is so strong. It's not serious at all. The characters in Batman 66 played it all super serious and that's the joke. What was the danger for Gohan in fighting crooks?

It's all supposed to be funny. What genuine issue is there? What happens if she finds out his identity? He'll be mildly inconvenienced and that's the joke.

The danger for Gohan usually involved other people, like the one with the burning building or whatever it was, or the animals at the circus, or Videl versus that gang. Lives were depicted as being at stake, and Gohan's struggle was presented as serious.

If Gohan's identity is exposed, then the world finds out he's not a normal human, peace is disrupted, investigations, lives turned upside down, etc etc. Regardless of how things would ultimately end up in that scenario, the audience is told in the beginning that this would be a bad thing that Gohan is trying to avoid. That's all that's really necessary for the plot to be taken seriously.

If all of it was actually supposed to be one big joke, then it completely went over my head.

[McDonaldsGuy]

Momentum from the extremely popular Cell saga. It was pure DBZmania at this point.

The Buu saga ruined quite a bit of momentum (though had a lot of great moments like SSJ3, Final Atonement, Fusion, etc. etc.).

It's sort of like how movie sequels always have huge opening weekends, but sometimes drop off afterwards. For example: Matrix Reloaded opened with $140 million (Domestically) the first 4 days of release due to momentum from the original movie, but quickly dropped off after people saw it. The Buu saga is nowhere near as bad as Reloaded/Revolutions were but by then the series was getting repetitive and Buu wasn't a great follow up to Cell.

[MasenkoHA]

Momentum from the extremely popular Cell saga. It was pure DBZmania at this point.

Again the highest rated episode in the Great Saiyaman era aired SIX MONTHS after the Cell saga ended. The idea the high from the Cell saga lasted that long is ludicrous.

[ABED]

I saw plenty of danger/stakes in each Saiyaman episode. The crimes were treated seriously and Gohan's struggles weren't played for laughs. Just because the audience knows how powerful Gohan is doesn't mean the threats are played for laughs. Dancing funny is only part of it, the seriousness is still there.

I don't remember Videl seeking his identity as being simply a gag. There was humor involved, naturally, but it was still a genuine issue in the plot.

They were all played for laughs. Gohan thinks it's all serious and that's the joke. There is no danger bc Gohan is so strong. It's not serious at all. The characters in Batman 66 played it all super serious and that's the joke. What was the danger for Gohan in fighting crooks?

It's all supposed to be funny. What genuine issue is there? What happens if she finds out his identity? He'll be mildly inconvenienced and that's the joke.

The danger for Gohan usually involved other people, like the one with the burning building or whatever it was, or the animals at the circus, or Videl versus that gang. Lives were depicted as being at stake, and Gohan's struggle was presented as serious.

If Gohan's identity is exposed, then the world finds out he's not a normal human, peace is disrupted, investigations, lives turned upside down, etc etc. Regardless of how things would ultimately end up in that scenario, the audience is told in the beginning that this would be a bad thing that Gohan is trying to avoid. That's all that's really necessary for the plot to be taken seriously.

If all of it was actually supposed to be one big joke, then it completely went over my head.

None of those people were in danger of getting hurt when Gohan's around.

His life won't be turned upside down. at worst it is a slight nuisance.

[Nagyzöld]

16 is an adult now?

Gohan was 11 when he got out of the Time Chamber. Buu saga takes place 7 years after. So he's 18 actually.

Besides, he was left in wilderness to survive at 4, brutally beaten on an alien planet at 5 and saved the world at 11. I think he was more of an adult than most of us at 16.

The Great Saiyaman saga had that 90's humor that probably has a different reception nowadays. Different times, different gags. If I was a teen in the 90's, and heard that the Cell saga will be continued after it ended so epically, and waited with my hopes up just to see this huge nerd who turn out to be useless the whole saga, I would actually be very butthurt.
Moreover, my main guess is that the direction they took with Gohan is strongly connected to the fact that they wanted to kick Goku back into relevance. Since they changed their mind about passing the torch to Gohan, they had to give him something unlikeable, un-maincharacter-ness.

[ABED]

16 is an adult now?

Gohan was 11 when he got out of the Time Chamber. Buu saga takes place 7 years after. So he's 18 actually.

Besides, he was left in wilderness to survive at 4, brutally beaten on an alien planet at 5 and saved the world at 11. I think he was more of an adult than most of us at 16.

The Great Saiyaman saga had that 90's humor that probably has a different reception nowadays. Different times, different gags. If I was a teen in the 90's, and heard that the Cell saga will be continued after it ended so epically, and waited with my hopes up just to see this huge nerd who turn out to be useless the whole saga, I would actually be very butthurt.
Moreover, my main guess is that the direction they took with Gohan is strongly connected to the fact that they wanted to kick Goku back into relevance. Since they changed their mind about passing the torch to Gohan, they had to give him something unlikeable, un-maincharacter-ness.

are you saying they intentionally cut Gohan off at the knees just to put Goku back as the main character?

[Nagyzöld]

are you saying they intentionally cut Gohan off at the knees just to put Goku back as the main character?

I mean it's just a guess of mine. I've read that Gohan was intended to be the next main character, but the fanbase freaked out as they wanted Goku back. But like Einstein once said, don't believe everything you read on the internet.