Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:25 pm

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Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 56 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

Return of the recurring death tallies!
And Funimation's episode titles becoming more awful than they've ever been at any other point!
And their dialogue being at its worst too!
And Z's pacing being at its worst!
And Kai's too...
...
But uhh... On the positive side, the animation is great, and Ryusei Nakao and Chris Ayres both kicked ass as Freeza in these episodes.

Previous thread: Week 55 (DBZ 80-84)
Next thread: Week 57 (DBZ 90-94)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 238 - The Moment We’ve Waited For!!! Son Goku is Revived (DBZ episode 85)
Dub title: The Renewed Goku
Originally aired 3rd of April 1991

Kai equivalent: Episode 41 - The Moment We’ve Waited For! Son Goku is Revived (last half)
Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


Even after having tremendously powered up, Vegeta is no good against Freeza. But Vegeta still challenges him, saying that as a Super Saiyan there’s no way he could lose. However, his attacks are all dodged, and even his full-power energy attack is knocked back with just a kick. Vegeta trembles in fear and despair, and finally weeps… He is handily beaten. Piccolo and the others can merely watch. At that moment, Goku is revived!

Anime-only/filler content: Extensions to the scene where Vegeta fires an energy blast (expanded to several) at Freeza, which he dodges; another scene with Kaio, Freeza throwing Vegeta into the sea, parting the water, and eating the friendly crab.

Episode 239 - Such Regret…!! The Proud Saiyan, Vegeta Dies (DBZ episode 86)
Dub title: The End of Vegeta
Originally aired 10th of April 1991

Kai equivalent: Episode 42 - Defeat Freeza, Son Goku! The Proud Vegeta’s Tears (first half)
Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Shindō


As Freeza is about to finish off Vegeta, Goku arrives! Freeza senses that Goku resembles the Saiyan Bardock, who caused an uprising in the past. Goku is Bardock’s child. Vegeta tells Freeza that Goku is a Super Saiyan, and the very next moment a beam pierces his heart! Vegeta begs Goku to avenge the Saiyan, and then dies. With the pride of the Saiyan in his breast, Goku challenges Freeza.

Anime-only/filler content: Extensions to Freeza realising Goku is Bardock's son, the flashback with young Vegeta, King Vegeta, and Nappa.

Episode 240 - The Curtain Opens on the Super Decisive Battle!! I Am Going to Defeat You (DBZ episode 87)
Dub title: The Ultimate Battle
Originally aired 17th of April 1991

Kai equivalent: Episode 42 - Defeat Freeza, Son Goku! The Proud Vegeta’s Tears (last half) and Episode 43 - Son Goku vs Freeza! The Curtain Opens on the Super Decisive Battle! (first half)
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Akihiko Yamaguchi
Animation supervisor: Masahiro Shimanuki


Sensing the tremendousness of the decisive battle that is about to begin, Piccolo and the others head for a safe place. As Gohan tells him to defeat Freeza, Goku replies with a silent back. The next instant, he charges Freeza. The true battle has finally begun. Freeza senses that there is something different about Goku’s strength from all the other Saiyan before. As magma erupts around them, the two’s fight grows more and more intense.

Anime-only/filler content: Freeza missing Goku with eye lasers leading Goku to figure out Freeza can't sense Ki (see trivia), Bulma and the frogs, Goku's encounter with a lava pool.

Episode 241 - The Two Great Superpowers Collide! A Physical Battle Where Both Get Serious!!! (DBZ episode 88)
Dub title: Clash of the Super Powers
Originally aired 24th of April 199

Kai equivalent: Episode 43 - Son Goku vs Freeza! The Curtain Opens on the Super Decisive Battle! (last half)
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


On Earth, Chi-Chi raises a big fuss about going to rescue Gohan. Meanwhile, Goku realizes that Freeza cannot sense ki. Tricking Freeza with two Kamehameha that he fires from underwater, Goku takes advantage of this opening to land a kick. But Freeza isn’t stopping… This time, he seals Goku within an energy bullet, and attacks him while he’s immobile. However, Goku succeeds at escaping at super speed the moment of the explosion!

Anime-only/filler content: Chichi packing to go to Namek (and of course, because it's Toei, her panties are on top of the pile of clothes to pack... -_-), Freeza beating Goku up and throwing him onto the ground after trapping him in an energy ball.

Episode 242 - Freeza’s Terrible Declaration! I Will Defeat You Without Using My Hands (DBZ episode 89)
Dub title: Frieza's Boast
Originally aired 1st of May 1991

Kai equivalent: Episode 44 - A Physical War That Exceeds All Limits! Goku and Freeza and Ginyu, Again?! (first half)
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa


A composed Freeza announces that he will fight Goku without using either of his hands. Meanwhile on Earth, the fuel supply for Chi-Chi’s spaceship advances along. And on Planet Namek, as she’s off on her own Bulma meets Ginyu, now a frog, and he uses Body Change on her… As Freeza is attacking with his tail, Goku counterattacks by biting, and Freeza unthinkingly uses his hand. Goku warns Freeza that he has too much confidence, and thus leaves himself open.

Anime-only/filler content: Chichi and some others bothering Dr Brief for his ship so they can go to Namek, Bulma and the Ginyu frog.

-

Interesting trivia:
  • At this point in time in the manga, Goku fights Freeza and delivers his "I am" speech, Freeza tries and fails to destroy Namek correctly, Freeza begins to fight at 100% of his strength, God and Kaio make their gambit to wish the Grand Elder back to life, and the Grand Elder tells Dende to hurry to Porunga.
  • Forgot to mention this a few weeks ago, but Freeza blowing off his armor is a rare look at what he looks like without any on in his first form. This would not be seen again until the opening of Dragon Ball Super: Broly, where he has a less developed design (particularly around the shoulders and clavicle), possibly to reflect his younger age at the time.
  • In the anime, Vegeta's big attack on Freeza is shown flying right past Vegeta and exploding in space after Freeza kicks it away, showing its colossal size. It also gives an idea regarding how big Freeza's planet-destroying attack is, given that Piccolo shouts at Vegeta asking if he's trying to take the planet with him. In the manga, the attack flies past much further away, and isn't shown exploding.
  • In the manga, there are narrator panels explaining Vegeta's utter despair at the situation. In the anime, this dialogue is given to Kaio. This forms a bit of an in-joke, as Kaio's Japanese voice actor also plays the narrator!
  • For all but the last manga panel, Freeza doesn't grip Vegeta's neck tight enough with his tail to actually hold him up.
  • Freeza rubbing the rock into Vegeta's chest also doesn't happen in the manga; the anime was presumably inspired by a single panel of Vegeta on the ground with a rock on his chest.
  • Freeza also picks up Vegeta by the shoulder loop of his armor, where it bends like a singlet. Despite the non-newtonian properties of the armor, this shouldn't be possible!
  • There's a rare colouring error in the Full Color edition of the manga: in Freeza's reaction panel to Goku's arrival, the gem on his chest is colored white instead of purple as it's supposed to.
  • This is the third time Goku arrives on a character's deathbed and casually walks past several of the combatants whilst analyzing the situation, after Nappa and Reacoom.
  • It's easy to forget, but Goku and Freeza don't actually meet each other until right before they fight.
  • In the anime, Goku comments that Freeza is smaller than he thought he'd be. In ViZ's translation of the manga, he says he's younger.
  • In another case of spoiling the story, the episode where Vegeta dies is called "Such Regret...!! The Proud Saiyan, Vegeta Dies".
  • Very famously, Toriyama liked the Bardock Special so much that he included a moment where Freeza recognizes Goku's similarity with "the Saiyan who resisted until the end... when I destroyed Planet Vegeta!!". These panels debuted in the manga two and a half months after the special aired on TV, and include a shot of Bardock facing Freeza in space surrounded by his men, and Bardock getting blasted by Freeza's attack, with the red bandanna and accurate armor damage from the special. Interestingly, Freeza does not attack with quite the same pose, and Bardock doesn't have his tail wrapped around his waist.
    • Because of Toriyama's inclusion of these panels, as well as the sheer quality of the special itself, many fans assumed that the Bardock Special was outright canon to the manga itself, not just the anime. This is why it was such a shock then in 2014 that in the bonus chapter of Jaco, Dragon Ball Minus, Toriyama wrote a very different version, where Bardock sends Goku away on his own in secret after Freeza's ship hovers over the planet. Here, Bardock has a slightly softer character and lacks the red bandanna, and Goku is sent away slightly older than before and in full armor (it's also the first time Toriyama invented his own original female Saiyan character in Gine, Goku's mother).
    • When Dragon Ball Minus was adapted as part of Dragon Ball Super: Broly's first act, the finale of the original special was referenced in several shots depicting Bardock, again with the same damage to his armor, futilely attempting to destroy Freeza's attack in space while surrounded by Freeza's men, before being consumed by it as his armor disintegrates. Aside from the lack of the headband and modern armor design, this makes Toriyama's revised version of Bardock's backstory fit with the manga panels a bit better.
    • That said, it does contradict the manga in that Bardock does not have a direct confrontation with Frieza, because Frieza destroys the planet almost immediately after exiting his ship. This is a contradiction because Frieza recognizes Goku as looking like "the Saiyan who resisted until the end", which is the entire reason why the two panels were included in the first place!
    • For its part, the original Z anime simply re-used clips from the Bardock Special, and in Yamamoto's score for Kai, this flashback uses the same music track as the original scene in Kai's very first episode.
  • The logo used for the Chapter with Bardock's two panels would later be the basis for the Dragon Ball Minus logo. It's unknown how purposeful this is.
  • Appropriately, Goku is the first character to land a hit on Freeza's Final/Base form.
  • In the manga, Freeza doesn't fire at Goku with a single shot first, and instead starts right with the rapid-fire barrage. The anime also makes things more dramatic by extending the barrage and showing a large amount of them exploding, as well as Goku hitting the last one down to the ground for the classic "smokescreen reveals he's alive" padding trick.
  • This is the fourth and final time Vegeta mistakenly thinks somebody could be the Super Saiyan, after Goku when fighting Recoome, Gohan while fighting Freeza, himself when fighting Freeza, and lastly Goku before fighting Freeza. In the anime, he finally gets it right on the fifth go after Porunga wishes him back to life.
  • Vegeta correctly makes two predictions shortly before his death. First, that Freeza shouldn't hold back against Goku: it'll take him going Super Saiyan for Freeza to fight at 100% power. Second, that "the Super Saiyan" doesn't have any remorse or sentimentality. Both Goku going Super Saiyan and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 initially show this (Goku even pointing this out), but this is overcome as they become accustomed to these forms.
  • In the anime, the additional sequence of Vegeta thinking upon how ruthless he and his father were uses footage from the older flashback when Freeza mentions killing Vegeta's father the king. This is kept in Kai.
  • Vegeta's dying breaths are the first time Vegeta's father, the king, is directly mentioned in the manga (he was of course kinda implied given that Vegeta is known as Prince of the Saiyans, but still).
  • In Vegeta's dying breaths, he's notably shown to be more upset about Freeza wiping out the Saiyans than he was when Dodoria revealed this him earlier in the arc. This implies that Vegeta kept his true feelings on the matter close, however it does contradict the ending of the earlier Bardock Special where he's shown to genuinely not care at all.
  • With his last words, Vegeta begs Goku that Freeza must die by a Saiyan's hands. This will eventually happen, but thanks to his son Trunks. Goku wouldn't kill Freeza in a Dragon Ball story until Resurrection 'F'.
  • The shot of Goku with his head bowed down in anger is very similar to later on, where he assumes the same pose after Kuririn is killed and his body struggles to go Super Saiyan. Both poses happen after an important character death.
  • In the anime, Goku making a hole in the ground to bury Vegeta makes less sense than in the manga, as there's a crater from earlier in the episode where he deflected the last of Freeza's finger beams.
  • Recurring death tallies:
    • Piccolo: 2
    • Chaozu: 2
    • The moon: 2
    • Vegeta: 1
    • Yamucha: 1
    • Tenshinhan: 1
    • Son Goku: 1
    • Roshi: 1
    • Kuririn: 1
  • Changes in the TV edit of the original dub:
    • In episode 85, the whole shot where Freeza eats the crab and punches Vegeta in the back is cut, some of the blood flying off Vegeta when he was tossed through the air by Freeza was painted out (but not all of it!), another two shots later on are cut in which Freeza punches Vegeta in the back (the BGM noticeably skips on the first cut).
    • In episode 86, five shots of Vegeta coughing up blood were cut, and Vegeta's burial was slightly shortened.
    • There are no cuts or paint edits to episode 87, though interestingly, the flashback to episode 70 keeps all the content that had previously been cut from that episode. Furthermore, dialogue-wise, even though Funimation are still blatantly dodging using the words "kill", "die", "death", etc. in general, Freeza says "Basically I'm trying to kill you." at one point in this episode. One piece of dialogue that was changed compared to the uncut version, however, was "My butt's on fire" becoming "My rear's on fire".
    • In episodes 88 and 89, Dr Brief's cigarette is painted out. 89 also cuts out the shot of Roshi getting a facefull Chichi's butt when he tries to pull her off Dr Brief, leading her to elbow him, which leaves him with a nosebleed.
    • Chris Psaros notes that most of the edits here are completely unnecessary, as Tenchi Muyo was getting away with all the kinds of stuff being censored here in about the same timeslot on Toonami.
  • There's a lot of nonsense in the Funi dub this week that I don't have to write complete notes on, but a few highlights include Goku saying "Hammer time!", Bardock's dialogue in the flashback implying all the Saiyans crowding around Freeza are fighting with him against Freeza, Freeza telling Goku his shoelaces are untied, and Goku responding that he doesn't have shoelaces, Freeza saying something in his "native tongue" (when he just laughed in the Japanese version)...
  • The worst dialogue change of all is that Vegeta's death scene was completely rewritten. In the dub, he has lines like "He took me from my father when I was just a little boy!", he basically lays out that the only reason he's "the way I am" is because of Freeza. Similarly, Goku is given dialogue in which he forgives and pities Vegeta, after all he was just led astray by Freeza... In the Japanese version, what's happening here is that Vegeta explains that the Saiyans served Freeza loyally, but when he got scared of their power, he wiped them out, and then, while burying Vegeta, Goku talks about how he respected his pride despite hating him. It's all very personal to these characters, and Funi's original script completely fucked it all up. Be glad we have Funi's Kai dub these days, which -- for all its flaws -- does a good job of rendering the original intent behind the important scenes like these.
  • The final shot of the episode with Vegeta's death shows Goku and Freeza in their stand-off. While this is very evocative of Bardock's vision when he was running up the stairs, Goku and Freeza are in the wrong places. Freeza is also in his weakest form, making the vision inaccurate (and lending credence to the idea that Toriyama initially didn't plan for Freeza to have so many transformations).
  • Before fighting Frieza, Goku now formally accepts his Saiyan heritage and decides to fight for his race. This is the inverse of his feelings when Raditz first revealed this to him, and is a strong reason why many find the Freeza fight to be a finale of sorts for the story. However this assumes that Z is the start of the story (it isn't), but it still acts as a fitting conclusion of the cycle that began with Raditz, similar to how Goku catching the Four Star Ball after reviving Bora concludes the journey he started in Chapter 1.
    • Other examples of cycles with climactic story conclusions are the 22nd TB/Daimao/23rd TB cycle, the Black Star/Baby+17/Evil Dragons cycle of GT, and Androids/Cell that ends Gohan's journey towards new protagonist. The other Dragon Ball arcs, such as Boo and most of Super, tend to stand alone rather than flow into a continuing arc to form a cycle.
  • Goku catching Freeza's attack, the attack pushing him back, and Goku shaking his hands afterwards over how hot they are, is exactly the same as him catching Tao Pai-Pai's Dodon-pa back in the Red Ribbon Arc (which was replicated in the Mystical Adventure movie).
  • The title page of Chapter 309 shows Freeza leaning up to Goku and Goku leaning down to Freeza, showing their height difference. Typically however the anime makes Freeza a bit bigger, having him come up to the shoulders rather than just above the waist.
  • The scene where Kaio informs Tenshinhan, Yamucha and Chaozu that Vegeta died originally happened shortly into Goku's fight with Vegeta, and is part of a larger update on what's happening on Namek. The anime moved the Vegeta half to when he died, and expanded it with Kaio explaining the monster they have awakened.
  • In the anime, while Frieza fires at Goku with his eye lasers, he misses wildly since Goku's hiding in smoke, which is when Goku realizes that Frieza can't sense ki. In the manga, this moment never happens, and Goku only vocally assumes this when he's hiding underwater.
  • When using his underwater sneak attack, Goku is able to summon two small Kamehamehas only by thinking the words. He also able to keep them suspended and control when they move, similar to how he could bend it at the 23rd Tournament.
  • After Goku's underwater sneak attack, Freeza mentions that Goku's the first to put a speck of dust on his body. This ignores the damage he took before Goku showed up, most notably Gohan's enraged attack and Kuririn cutting off his tail. He may be referring to his "original" form, but this isn't obvious in the dialogue.
  • ViZ's translation of the Full Color manga has a rare spelling mistake. After Goku survives the rock-throwing trap and escapes the explosion, Freeza says "I suppost that's enough warm-up". This error is not present in their original Tankobon translation.
  • Episode 89 marks the point where the anime starts adapting one manga chapter into one whole episode in a desperate attempt to avoid catching up with the anime. This will last until Episode 95, which is when Goku achieves Super Saiyan.
  • The end of Chapter 310 shows Chichi and Gyuumao wondering why Goku and Gohan aren't back yet. This small scene may have inspired the filler where Chichi and other B-Tier Dragon Team members try to go to Namek.
  • Goku's advice to Freeza, that his confience leaves him wide open, is rather prescient, since it's exactly how Freeza gets himself sliced up by both his own discs and by Trunks' sword.
Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Dragon Ball logo provided, and trivia primarily written, by KBABZ. Additional trivia courtesy of Chris Psaros's DBZ Uncensored guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:53 pm

The change to Vegeta's dialogue from right before he dies of his injuries is by far one of the biggest of the rewrites in the old dub, and one i really dislike because it presents him as this tragic victim and Freeza is responsible for him being the way he has been up to that point. But no, as noted the original scene in Japanese is not like that at all but instead his tearfully telling Goku that the Saiyans by and large had been unquestionably loyal to Freeza but he had that worry of them rebelling en mass which led to the decision to eradicate Planet Vegeta and the majority of the Saiyans on the planet. My guess is the dub's writers wanted to have Vegeta appear in a more sympathetic and vulnerable light, despite the fact that at this point in the story he's still not quite past being more or less an antagonist as that change doesn't come until much later.

The bit with flashing back to Bardock's futile last stand is a close second as well, because if you look it's pretty obvious those guys surrounding him are not Saiyans but actually Freeza's men.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:45 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:25 pm . One piece of dialogue that was changed compared to the uncut version, however, was "My butt's on fire" becoming "My rear's on fire".

Well to be fair its not like other shows aired on Cartoon Network said the word butt so I could see why Funimation felt the need to change it for the edited version :

https://youtu.be/0etaQ3sHuxk

https://youtu.be/7Uw78etgluw



Oh.
[*]Chris Psaros notes that most of the edits here are completely unnecessary, as Tenchi Muyo was getting away with all the kinds of stuff being censored here in about the same timeslot on Toonami.[/list]

Yeah but his comment

ould have been absolutely fine by their standards. So, I suppose it IS stupid dialogue in that respect. FUNimation's self-imposed censorship is starting to become painfully obvious when you put DBZ next to other shows on CN, particularly Tenchi Muyo, where they drink sake, say "damn," and flip each other off with reckless abandon.
Not entirely true. They didn’t drink sake in the edited Tenchi Muyo dub it was infamously changed to “tea” nor did anyone flip the bird in edited Tenchi Muyo and swearing was edited too. Heck they had a whole character redubbed for the Toonami version because of his stereotypical gay lisp in the original uncut dub.

All the same time it was still pretty evident Funimation was imposing most dialog censorship on itself since most of their uncut dialog would have been just fine on Toonami. At the end of the day the Cartoon Network era wasn’t much “edgier” than the Saban era.






Anyways woo time for the most infamously drawn out single fight in shonen anime history. Lasting roughly 18 episodes (87-104) Goku vs Freeza pretty much triples the previous record holder for longest fight in Dragon Ball with Goku vs Piccolo Jr only lasting 6 episodes. Even the Kai version which brings it down to about 10 episodes is still pretty long.


Also while I commend Funimation for finally getting Vegeta’s death right in Kai (third time’s the charm eh?) I do have to say I still think Ryo Horikawa blows Chris Sabat out the water even in Kai

https://youtu.be/JtMMBvLw-Tw

https://youtu.be/Vfu1o61p1mQ


But oh man if anyways deserves a most improved award it probably would go to Sean Schemmel :

https://youtu.be/lB1IhaTlhdY



Ahh noooooo

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:49 pm

I enjoy Freeza eating the crab. That was a nice touch by Toei.

I don't mind the overall length of the Goku/Freeza fight, but it's all of the intrusive filler that messes things up. Some of these cuts are awful.

It's stuff like Vegeta's death scene, the Bardock flashback, and Freeza speaking in his "native tongue" that makes you think that Funi's true objective was to create their own DB mythology instead of just dubbing the actual show.

Chichi packing to go to Namek (and of course, because it's Toei, her panties are on top of the pile of clothes to pack... -_-
I think that may have been fresh clothes for Gohan, not Chichi's. The underwear might be Gohan's briefs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:28 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:45 pm
ould have been absolutely fine by their standards. So, I suppose it IS stupid dialogue in that respect. FUNimation's self-imposed censorship is starting to become painfully obvious when you put DBZ next to other shows on CN, particularly Tenchi Muyo, where they drink sake, say "damn," and flip each other off with reckless abandon.
Not entirely true. They didn’t drink sake in the edited Tenchi Muyo dub it was infamously changed to “tea” nor did anyone flip the bird in edited Tenchi Muyo and swearing was edited too. Heck they had a whole character redubbed for the Toonami version because of his stereotypical gay lisp in the original uncut dub.
Hah. I see. I guess I should be more careful about taking Psaros's words at face value.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:45 pm All the same time it was still pretty evident Funimation was imposing most dialog censorship on itself since most of their uncut dialog would have been just fine on Toonami. At the end of the day the Cartoon Network era wasn’t much “edgier” than the Saban era.
Yeah.
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:45 pm Anyways woo time for the most infamously drawn out single fight in shonen anime history. Lasting roughly 18 episodes (87-104) Goku vs Freeza pretty much triples the previous record holder for longest fight in Dragon Ball with Goku vs Piccolo Jr only lasting 6 episodes. Even the Kai version which brings it down to about 10 episodes is still pretty long.
Yeah... To be honest, I think Kai completely dropped the ball here. They only adapted about two chapters per episode here (at this stage, Z was doing roughly one per episode, meaning the conversion was only two Z episodes per Kai episode), whereas the height of Goku vs Vegeta in the Saiyan arc was as much as five chapters per episode.

So, even though the pace is nowhere near as bad as it was in Z, the pace of the Freeza arc in Kai is still really awful, far slower than it had any reason to be. Yet more reasons why I don't think Kai is all it's cracked up to be (look forward to me saying this far less if/when Ocean Kai ever releases, though :lol:).
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:45 pm But oh man if anyways deserves a most improved award it probably would go to Sean Schemmel :
To be honest, I think Sabat gets the most improved award from me, but really ALL of them improved massively after the season 3 days, and really I have to put a lot of that down to the direction.
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:49 pm I don't mind the overall length of the Goku/Freeza fight, but it's all of the intrusive filler that messes things up. Some of these cuts are awful.
If you ask me, the awful cutaways are the most obviously bad thing, but the fight itself is extended to an absurd degree. You could pretty much miss two entire episodes in a row, as long as it's not either the beginning of the fight, Goku going Super Saiyan, or the end sequence, and you won't have missed anything.
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:49 pm
Chichi packing to go to Namek (and of course, because it's Toei, her panties are on top of the pile of clothes to pack... -_-
I think that may have been fresh clothes for Gohan, not Chichi's. The underwear might be Gohan's briefs.
They sure looked like panties, and knowing Toei...
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:32 pm

This is by far the point are which the pacing drags the most in the entire series, and i get that the anime was pretty close to the manga at the time in terms of chapters being adapted in early/mid 1991 but Toei didn't necessarily need to overlengthen Goku's battle against Freeza as much as they did. Especially considering the series was airing one episode a week on Wednesday evenings so the big fight itself took just under under half that year in order to conclude.

Kai's version is at least easier for me to get through, though i will agree they could've stood to cut more on top of what already removed.
DB collection related goals as of now:

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2.) Collect rest of manga

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:04 pm

The back on earth scenes really don’t bother me as much as all the Goku and Freeza staring at each other and staring..

God only knows why Kai kept Ginyu Bulma

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:23 pm

I think the amount of staring is overblown. the endless cutaways mid-battle to Bulma or Chichi are insufferable.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:57 am

ABED wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:23 pm I think the amount of staring is overblown. the endless cutaways mid-battle to Bulma or Chichi are insufferable.
Oh Chichi, victim to many small cutaways through out the anime that paint her in a worse light than anything she did in the manga. Making her overbearing and naggy to the point of obnoxiousness.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:12 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:57 am
ABED wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:23 pm I think the amount of staring is overblown. the endless cutaways mid-battle to Bulma or Chichi are insufferable.
Oh Chichi, victim to many small cutaways through out the anime that paint her in a worse light than anything she did in the manga. Making her overbearing and naggy to the point of obnoxiousness.
I'm still not a big fan of hers in the manga but yeah it's pretty obvious that they turn it to 11. That's in a nutshell what happens in Super. They mostly take certain characteristics that are present in the manga and turn the volume up. Even if a was a fan the interruptions of the fight for no other reason than to pad the episodes are a nuisance.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:23 pm

I'm going to be honest, I actually really liked the rewrite of Vegeta's death scene in the dub and I think it's one of the best changes that Funimation made IMO, I totally get why it bothers some but it really worked for me and I don't think they fucked it up one bit(Didn't quite have the same impact for me in Kai) just the combination of Goku's epic speech combined with my all-time favorite piece of music in DBZ(this one in case you're wondering:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayj7gIR ... l=coycoy88) really got to me. Even as a kid who hadn't seen much of Vegeta that scene still got to me in a way that no other animated TV show had before, and now having seen Vegata's journey up to this point it's even more effective.

Chris Psaros(who actually did like the whole bit with Freeza's "native tongue" as did I) went into more detail about the original dialogue, both versions say that Freeza corrupted, the dub centers it around Vegeta himself whereas the original version is about the Saiyans as a whole and that says a lot about how Japan and the U.S. differ as they are more about the collective whereas we are more about the individual. Both versions are effective in their own right, but i'm always going to prefer the one I grew up with.

Anyways other things to talk about, another bit I remember seeing as a kid was Goku tricking Freeza with his underwater torpedoes. In these episodes in general Goku shows that he's not just about brute strength, he actually can be quite clever. I like how he totally ruins Freeza's attempt at being badass (by fighting without using his hands) by biting his tail(one of the funniest bits in the show) and Freeza getting pissed off and breaking his own rule.

I can kind of understand how one would get confused in the flashback about those actually being Freeza's men since Freeza vaporizes them alongside Bardock(and Funi's own dub of the Bardock special also goes along with that interpretation with Bardock saying "it's over Freeza, we quit!")and Funi probably figured it wouldn't make sense for Freeza to kill all of his own men like that(or for his own men to just stand there and not attack Bardock) I know I certainly would've been confused as hell by that scene as a kid if it had played out unchanged from the original(which has no dialogue to explain what's going on, so if you haven't seen the Bardock special you'll likely be lost).

I do remember being surprised at some of the stuff in Tenchi-Muyo, but I don't recall any flipping of the bird.

BTW those were Chi-Chi's panties, I just got done watching the uncut Freeza-Clash single and in that version Chi-Chi explicitly refers to them as such.

Another interesting thing is that Psaros wondered whether or not Ginyu was feeling up Bulma's body(knowing anime tropes it wouldn't surprise me if that was the intention)after switching with her or if he was just rubbing normally.

I don't mind how long the Freeza fight is, but Ginyu coming back again feels unnecessary.

Cartoon Network was able to get away with a lot more then Saban did with not having to dodge around death and being able to show actual dead bodies onscreen, most of the dialogue changes were likely just a ploy for Funimation to be able to sell more home video releases of the show so that fans would see the "uncut" label and think they were really getting something special when in reality they usually got only a few different lines of dialogue and a few more seconds of footage.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:33 pm

I don't recall Vegeta in the original ever saying or implying that Freeza corrupted the Saiyans.

Having rewatched the scene, it's not at all what he said. His dying words in a nutshell were "We worked for this prick and he killed us because he was afraid a Super Saiyan would challenge his power." Nothing in it even implies that the Saiyans were good but corrupted by Freeza's influence.
Last edited by ABED on Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:39 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:33 pm I don't recall Vegeta in the original ever saying or implying that Freeza corrupted the Saiyans.
I'm mostly going based off what Psaros said in his comparison here:http://dbzu.3gkai.com/series/ep086.html
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by ABED » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:43 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:39 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:33 pm I don't recall Vegeta in the original ever saying or implying that Freeza corrupted the Saiyans.
I'm mostly going based off what Psaros said in his comparison here:http://dbzu.3gkai.com/series/ep086.html
Okay well he's incorrect on that point as well as at least one other - Goku didn't struggle with his true origin. He denied it at first but he gets over it quickly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:53 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:23 pm I'm going to be honest, I actually really liked the rewrite of Vegeta's death scene in the dub and I think it's one of the best changes that Funimation made IMO, I totally get why it bothers some but it really worked for me and I don't think they fucked it up one bit(Didn't quite have the same impact for me in Kai) just the combination of Goku's epic speech combined with my all-time favorite piece of music in DBZ(this one in case you're wondering:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayj7gIR ... l=coycoy88) really got to me. Even as a kid who hadn't seen much of Vegeta that scene still got to me in a way that no other animated TV show had before, and now having seen Vegata's journey up to this point it's even more effective.

Chris Psaros(who actually did like the whole bit with Freeza's "native tongue" as did I) went into more detail about the original dialogue, both versions say that Freeza corrupted, the dub centers it around Vegeta himself whereas the original version is about the Saiyans as a whole and that says a lot about how Japan and the U.S. differ as they are more about the collective whereas we are more about the individual. Both versions are effective in their own right, but i'm always going to prefer the one I grew up with.
I understand why Funimation made the change; they wanted to connect better with an American audience where individualism is valued more so they had Vegeta focus on how Freeza personally impacted him but it also has the side effect of robbing Vegeta of any agency. “He’s not really evil! Freeza made him like that!” It also just goes against Vegeta’s prideful nature to acknowledge someone else made him the way he is. He certainly doesn’t try to change ways when he was brought back to life after supposedly having this moment or clarity.

Anyways other things to talk about, another bit I remember seeing as a kid was Goku tricking Freeza with his underwater torpedoes. In these episodes in general Goku shows that he's not just about brute strength, he actually can be quite clever. I like how he totally ruins Freeza's attempt at being badass (by fighting without using his hands) by biting his tail(one of the funniest bits in the show) and Freeza getting pissed off and breaking his own rule.
We got a lot more of Goku’s showcasing of being clever in battle the original Dragon Ball which seemed less frequent in Z so this was nice.
I can kind of understand how one would get confused in the flashback about those actually being Freeza's men since Freeza vaporizes them alongside Bardock(and Funi's own dub of the Bardock special also goes along with that interpretation with Bardock saying "it's over Freeza, we quit!")and Funi probably figured it wouldn't make sense for Freeza to kill all of his own men like that(or for his own men to just stand there and not attack Bardock) I know I certainly would've been confused as hell by that scene as a kid if it had played out unchanged from the original(which has no dialogue to explain what's going on, so if you haven't seen the Bardock special you'll likely be lost).
I could forgive the mistake for the original dub as they hadn’t dubbed the special yet and Funimation made much worse mistakes before and since (the Android/Cell saga dub is the King of this) but it seemed off they didn’t fix it for the remastered version? I think they had Strait redub Bardock anyways but it was the exact same incorrect dialog. It’s not like they had to write new lines they could have literally just had Sonny Strait record the same lines he had in the Bardock special for consistency.
I do remember being surprised at some of the stuff in Tenchi-Muyo, but I don't recall any flipping of the bird.

They didn’t. Psaros is mistaken. It was pretty heavily censored. ANN actually did a pretty thorough edit list for Tenchi Muyo and Tenchi Universe. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/edit-l ... 2#articles (starts on Dec 2001)


My favorite is Ayeka’s tagline for one next episode “It’s unquestionably sexy!” being changed to “its unquestionably sensational!” even though I 100 percent remember Majin Buu asking that one girl “Do you think Buu is sexy?” being in the edited dub of Z. Not sure if double standard because of Toonami’s favoritism toward Z or because Buu is hard to understand which made it okay.



Cartoon Network was able to get away with a lot more then Saban did with not having to dodge around death and being able to show actual dead bodies onscreen, most of the dialogue changes were likely just a ploy for Funimation to be able to sell more home video releases of the show so that fans would see the "uncut" label and think they were really getting something special when in reality they usually got only a few different lines of dialogue and a few more seconds of footage.
Cartoon Network being cable while Saban was distributing the show to network television probably helped a bit but honestly Saban made sure Funimation censored the show way past what was necessary to get it on air. The BLT dub of Dragon Ball was also made for network syndication and kept some mildly risque moments as well as keep in references to death. Same with the first 65 episodes of the DiC dub of Sailor Moon dub which managed to straight up keep a villain being impaled by thorns as well as at least two instances of blood (granted both were pretty plot important)

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 56 - DBZ 85-89

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:34 pm

Really the word "sexy" was too much for TV airings of Tenchi on CN? FFS i've seen an episode of Fairly Oddparents that used the word "sexy" :lol: .

So they didn't fix the flashback error for the Orange Bricks? Of course they didn't, just yet another sign of them being an ill-conceived cash grab.

Thanks for the link, i've really got to get back into Tenchi at some point, it's been at least 2 decades since i've last seen it.
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