GT and misogyny

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

This thread should be changed to Dragon Ball and misogyny since it seems to encompass more than just GT.

[MozillaVulpix]

Wait, I’m confused. Why should Mr. Satan being concerned over his grandchild be considered sexist?

So I don't think anyone properly answered this: it's not just "him being concerned", it's the fact his role in the plot is to tell Pan that she shouldn't get involved in the boy's club of fighting, and, very crucially, unlike Chi-Chi, he's always proven absolutely right. There is not a single moment after they arrive back on Earth and stay there for the rest of GT where she single-handedly saves one of the important characters from a situation they couldn't have handled on their own. You could argue some of those early Evil Dragons, but Goku doesn't even go Super Saiyan 4 for the ones that Pan contributes in. He was obviously holding back immensely and could probably brute-force win it if worse came to worse.

Heck, even when the gang is captured on M2, and she has to try and save them (in one of the most awfully egregious examples of this), she manages to sneak her way into where Goku and Trunks are held, then some of the robots hit her, and Goku gets so angry from seeing this he breaks out of his imprisonment on his own. Literally, when Goku was held as a Damsel in Distress, he saves himself instead of Pan helping him.

She's absolutely nothing like Gohan, who literally had to be there because his power was impressive enough for him to hold his own compared to some of the other fighters in the cast, and also had the potential to be stronger than anyone else in the cast if they got mad. They...don't do this with Pan. At least Goten and Trunks had one arc of them actually fighting before the manga ended and the cast relevance started getting cycled around depending on what the editorial department felt sounded the most popular.

[super michael]

To very briefly touch on the idea of "nobody was thinking that in 1983" argument, in Ancient Greek mythology there were many relationships that were homosexual, and there was even a god who was non-binary. These ideas didn't spring up out of nowhere in the 1960s, they existed for thousands of years before other cultures came along 2000 years ago and stamped them into the ground.

The point is that continuing on the present course (even through mental muscle memory) is only spreading the wrong ideaologies around, and that is arguably even more true when your story is aimed at boys aged 10-16 because they're most impressionable at that age. It shouldn't really need to be said that Toriyama having sexual assault and a rape joke in a kids comic strip is INCREDIBLY QUESTIONABLE.

I don’t know anything about Ancient Greek mythology, it isn’t something I thought about researching. Maybe when I have more free time I might do some research, doing A Level ICT and Business while working takes a lot of time.

What you said sounds interesting, especially since I had no idea.

[Majin Buu]

Wait, I’m confused. Why should Mr. Satan being concerned over his grandchild be considered sexist?

So I don't think anyone properly answered this: it's not just "him being concerned", it's the fact his role in the plot is to tell Pan that she shouldn't get involved in the boy's club of fighting, and, very crucially, unlike Chi-Chi, he's always proven absolutely right. There is not a single moment after they arrive back on Earth and stay there for the rest of GT where she single-handedly saves one of the important characters from a situation they couldn't have handled on their own. You could argue some of those early Evil Dragons, but Goku doesn't even go Super Saiyan 4 for the ones that Pan contributes in. He was obviously holding back immensely and could probably brute-force win it if worse came to worse.

Heck, even when the gang is captured on M2, and she has to try and save them (in one of the most awfully egregious examples of this), she manages to sneak her way into where Goku and Trunks are held, then some of the robots hit her, and Goku gets so angry from seeing this he breaks out of his imprisonment on his own. Literally, when Goku was held as a Damsel in Distress, he saves himself instead of Pan helping him.

She's absolutely nothing like Gohan, who literally had to be there because his power was impressive enough for him to hold his own compared to some of the other fighters in the cast, and also had the potential to be stronger than anyone else in the cast if they got mad. They...don't do this with Pan. At least Goten and Trunks had one arc of them actually fighting before the manga ended and the cast relevance started getting cycled around depending on what the editorial department felt sounded the most popular.

Agreed. The narrative never actively went out of its way to keep Gohan, Goten, or Trunks out of the fighting the way it does with Pan (and Videl before her).

[DBZAOTA482]

Not to mention in episode 15 of GT, instead of proving to Trunks she's a valuable asset to the team, Pan runs away gets lost and has to be saved by fucking Giru (who ends up finding oasis and the dragonball) but she gets all the credit.

How pathetic.

[PurestEvil]

Not to mention in episode 15 of GT, instead of proving to Trunks she's a valuable asset to the team, Pan runs away gets lost and has to be saved by fucking Giru (who ends up finding oasis and the dragonball) but she gets all the credit.

How pathetic.

The fact that Pan was written like a whiny brat for a good chunk of the series makes matters worse. Her development AND her personality were discriminated against.

[Lightningexpose]

To me what really makes the misogyny unbearable is that at least 80% of the fanbase embrace this misogyny and make videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pFJ-98YHgI

[WittyUsername]

To me what really makes the misogyny unbearable is that at least 80% of the fanbase embrace this misogyny and make videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pFJ-98YHgI

That video is just part of a dumb meme that went around last year.

[Shaddy]

Yeah that's the "I'm about to become RACIST" thing. I think it's pretty values-neutral for the most part, because it's really just going back and forth on different pictures of Goku saying "I'm racist" or "JK guys I'm not racist anymore", without (as far as I have seen) actually having any specific racism in it. Cell there is the same deal.

[ABED]

Wait, I’m confused. Why should Mr. Satan being concerned over his grandchild be considered sexist?

So I don't think anyone properly answered this: it's not just "him being concerned", it's the fact his role in the plot is to tell Pan that she shouldn't get involved in the boy's club of fighting, and, very crucially, unlike Chi-Chi, he's always proven absolutely right. There is not a single moment after they arrive back on Earth and stay there for the rest of GT where she single-handedly saves one of the important characters from a situation they couldn't have handled on their own. You could argue some of those early Evil Dragons, but Goku doesn't even go Super Saiyan 4 for the ones that Pan contributes in. He was obviously holding back immensely and could probably brute-force win it if worse came to worse.

Heck, even when the gang is captured on M2, and she has to try and save them (in one of the most awfully egregious examples of this), she manages to sneak her way into where Goku and Trunks are held, then some of the robots hit her, and Goku gets so angry from seeing this he breaks out of his imprisonment on his own. Literally, when Goku was held as a Damsel in Distress, he saves himself instead of Pan helping him.

She's absolutely nothing like Gohan, who literally had to be there because his power was impressive enough for him to hold his own compared to some of the other fighters in the cast, and also had the potential to be stronger than anyone else in the cast if they got mad. They...don't do this with Pan. At least Goten and Trunks had one arc of them actually fighting before the manga ended and the cast relevance started getting cycled around depending on what the editorial department felt sounded the most popular.

Agreed. The narrative never actively went out of its way to keep Gohan, Goten, or Trunks out of the fighting the way it does with Pan (and Videl before her).

Yes about Pan, but Videl is not a fighter on the level of the main characters or even the B-listers. The story didn't go out of its way to keep her out of the fight.

[Gochu]

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.

[Matches Malone]

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

People nowadays expect everything to cater to everyone and will go on a witch hunt on the creators if it doesn't.

[Planetnamek]

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

People nowadays expect everything to cater to everyone and will go on a witch hunt on the creators if it doesn't.

No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics(who contradict themselves by claiming "x is being cancelled!" one minute and then calling for a boycott of something else the next minute)

I think Julie makes some very good points.

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.

Wow there's so much wrong with this blatantly ill-informed post I don't even know where to start First off nobody is being indoctrinated here so grow up, we're just adults having a discussion and 15 years ago this still would've been a discussion because I remember going on the IMDB forums in 2004 and there was I shit you not an actual debate over whether or not the Spongebob movie was sexist(and I vividly remember one jackass unironically used the dumbass term "feminazi" on that thread so the more things the more they stay the same I guess). I didn't agree that it was, but pretending like these discussions simply didn't exist back then is just plain ignorant and naive.

Nobody believes femininity is wrong just because they dare to criticize this one aspect of your precious show, it's not perfect so don't pretend like DBZ hasn't aged badly in at least some areas(sorry but Roshi creeping up on Bulma isn't remotely funny or cute) it's OK to like something while still acknowledging the problematic aspects of it(see also Harry Potter and pretty much anything by Lovecraft).

Also newsflash, EVERY piece of fictional media is "political", there is simply no avoiding it. Let me guess, by "political propaganda" you mean "anything that challenges the status quo" right? Hollywood has made some damn good movies over the past few years, let me guess you're one of those people that hates any movies that has LGBTQ or BIPOC people as leads that point out that bigotry still exists right? Sorry but Hollywood no longer has to cater exclusively to straight white males, you have plenty of movies still aimed at you, let the rest of the world have their films and stop acting like everyone must cater only to you.

There is anime with political propaganda like Attack on Titan, but i'm guessing that's not what you meant right? I'm guessing you think anything with strong female characters equals "propaganda" somehow.

If you sincerely believe this alt-right garbage, then this forum is definitely not the place for you. We already had someone get banned last year for going off on a deranged pro-Trump rant, so if I were you I wouldn't make such ill-informed posts.

Oh dear Kami I cannot wait for Kunzait to pick apart this post, if you thought I was thorough in debunking every bit of nonsense you said, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Matches Malone]

No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics

When you go after something (or someone) and call for it to either be removed or changed, that's cancel culture. It's not exclusive to the right wing boogeyman you and others are so afraid of, it happens everywhere, regardless of country or political leaning.

[Gochu]

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

People nowadays expect everything to cater to everyone and will go on a witch hunt on the creators if it doesn't.

No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics(who contradict themselves by claiming "x is being cancelled!" one minute and then calling for a boycott of something else the next minute)

I think Julie makes some very good points.

I don't think we should take this thread into non-DBZ related political stuff, as that will be a recipe for disaster. But the idea of their not being cancel culture is simply untrue. Perhaps the term is right-wing created but what it represents is certainly real:

According to wikipedia:

Cancel culture is a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles – whether it be online, on social media, or in person. Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to be "cancelled".[1] Merriam-Webster notes that to "cancel", as used in this context, means "to stop giving support to that person"[2] while Dictionary.com, in its pop-culture dictionary, defines cancel culture as "withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive.

There are innumerable cases of this in today's more than ever politically correct world and polarized America, and it's happening for progressively "less offensive" reasons as people become more and more sensitized. Whether appropriate or not, Roseanne Barr is an immediate example that comes to mind that I'm simply using as an example of "cancel culture" existing.

[Planetnamek]

No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics

When you go after something (or someone) and call for it to either be removed or changed, that's cancel culture. It's not exclusive to the right wing boogeyman you and others are so afraid of, it happens everywhere, regardless of country or political leaning.

Um no it isn't sorry to break it to you.

You seem to be the one afraid of the left-wing cancel culture boogeyman here that does not truly exist.

I'm not "Afraid" of anyone, i'm just annoyed by the hypocrisy of those right-wing clowns, they whine about assholes being "Cancelled" one minute and call for boycotts of Target the next.

[Planetnamek]

People nowadays expect everything to cater to everyone and will go on a witch hunt on the creators if it doesn't.

No that's not remotely true at all. Cancel culture is not a thing that actually exists, it's a bogus term made up by right-wing lunatics(who contradict themselves by claiming "x is being cancelled!" one minute and then calling for a boycott of something else the next minute)

I think Julie makes some very good points.

I don't think we should take this thread into non-DBZ related political stuff, as that will be a recipe for disaster. But the idea of their not being cancel culture is simply untrue. Perhaps the term is right-wing created but what it represents is certainly real:

According to wikipedia:

Cancel culture is a modern form of ostracism in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles – whether it be online, on social media, or in person. Those who are subject to this ostracism are said to be "cancelled".[1] Merriam-Webster notes that to "cancel", as used in this context, means "to stop giving support to that person"[2] while Dictionary.com, in its pop-culture dictionary, defines cancel culture as "withdrawing support for (canceling) public figures and companies after they have done or said something considered objectionable or offensive.

There are innumerable cases of this in today's more than ever politically correct world and polarized America, and it's happening for progressively "less offensive" reasons as people become more and more sensitized. Whether appropriate or not, Roseanne Barr is an immediate example that comes to mind that I'm simply using as an example of "cancel culture" existing.

That seems awfully hypocritical of you to preach considering you were the one that brought up the whole notion of people being 'indoctrinated" and complaining about "Hollywood" and "anime with political propaganda" which really has nothing whatsoever to do with Dragon Ball so i'm not sure why you even brought it up.

Spare me the "politically correct" nonsense , Roseanne is a terrible example considering she was spouting blatantly racist garbage on Twitter, frankly I don't blame ABC for not wanting anything to do with a toxic bigot like that(and i'm saying that as someone who liked the revival and liked her as an actress, I was very let down to see her spout such ignorant vile crap) that's not being "Cancelled" that's a private company firing someone for breaking their rules, she was told repeatedly to stop spouting offensive garbage on social media but no she just couldn't keep her big fat mouth shut, so she got what she deserved. Same deal with Gina Carano, she got several chances to stop spouting anti-masker garbage but she just couldn't keep her awful beliefs to herself and now she's lost out on a lucrative franchise because of it.

Basically when you work for a private company, the number one rule is "don't be a dickhead", it's not that hard. Yet several famous people just cannot stop making asses of themselves.

Cancel culture is not real, deal with it and accept that some people have legitimate problems with how female characters are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

[JulieYBM]

"IT's BiOlOgY!!!111oneone"

Sweetie, I just wanna see a dumb cartoon I like not hate me and teach kids bad things. The horror.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Dragonball is largely about a warrior race of testosterone-overboard monkey men beating each other to death for the thrill of battle. This is a masculine trait and is why it's reserved mostly for men. This doesn't make it misogynistic.

Anyone who disagrees, if biology has no ground here, should ask their mother, girlfriend, female friends, or simply random female strangers their affinity towards physical violence and then run comparison with their father, brother, male friends, or random male strangers. If anyone says that females enjoy the act of consentual physical violence to the same degree as men, they're lying, or are simply asking only their peers from a similar background/ideology (e.g. your entire social circle are devote Jainists, aristocratic, or effeminate). This is why this would be best carried out asking random strangers of both sexes that differ in ideologies/political ideologies.

Since fictional works mimic a lot of concepts from real-world reality, it is perfectly reasonable that virtually all of the fighters are men. And there isn't any reason why there should be more female fighters, and even if there were they would quickly become eclipsed in terms of power by the male fighters in DBZ (making them a pointless addition). Heck, virtually all of the human male fighters were eclipsed by the saiyans in mid-later DBZ.

However, I would argue that DB actually did give female fighters their dues, especially in Dragonball. In Dragonball, we had characters like Launch, Ranfan, and Chi-Chi. If you were to go to a gender non-exclusive World Martial Arts Tournament where people are beating each other half to death, I suspect you would see either no females or a very, very few female outliers willing to fight bare-knuckled against men. In that way, it was very accurate representation. Additionally, I'd say these female characters appropriately became irrelevant in the show when it made sense to do so, because they couldn't keep up with the males. Again the same thing happened with the male human fighters (meaning it's not even gender-specific) in mid-late DBZ, when it made sense to do so.

Also, female characters were part of the saiyan race, and because saiyans are natural fighters that crave battle, they appeared to equally or at least enjoy fighting like their male counter-parts. The reason we do not see these female saiyans is because, of course, they were all wiped out when planet Vegeta died out.

So no, I don't think DB is misogynistic. And I really do not think this thread's premise would even exist in the minds of 98 percent of people here if we, say, were spontaneously transferred into a reality where we were all the exact same age as we are now but in a world that was 15 years ago.

Current world politics has indoctrinated the masses into believing femininity is wrong and that women must act and be perceived as acting/being like men despite hundreds of thousands of years of biology in contrary. Modern day winning-side political virtue signaling should be kept out of everything except politics, especially if we want to have quality anime rather than anime infused with political propaganda which will inevitably make it worse -- we have Hollywood as a perfect current example.

First off this post is super wrong. Girls love action too, and NO, the fact that they do isnt them denying their femeninity. This is BEST EXEMPLIFIED by the Pretty Cure series. No where else can you find so much action involving cute and fluffy femenine girls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuW4gfHJFPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbQIFGF98rM

17 years. Its been on for 17 years. The producer for the series Takashi Washio famously said "Girls like to rampage too!" and none other than Daisuke Nishio, the director of DBZ, agreed.

[Matches Malone]

Accept that some people have legitimate problems with how female characters are portrayed in Dragon Ball.

Does this apply to people who have problems with Kale and Culifla being overpowered and badly written ? I'm asking for a friend.