GT and misogyny

[ABED]

Are fans really that nostalgic for Videl? Chichi makes more sense than Videl. Hell, she trained Goten.

[KBABZ]

Also, Zarbon showed resentment to his monster form as well because it "ruined his beauty" despite the power boost. Male characters can have a vanity complex too.

Zarbon's a bit different I feel because, while he does have some resentment to his transformed state, it's not his default state and he assumes it on his own accord (of a sense, Vegeta backs him into a corner).

[BWri]

Alright, those were some repetitive metaphors but my point stands. I get the feeling those fans just don't like women they can't control, which is is humorous since they're directing their irritation to women who don't even exist. I guess that just makes the lack of control all the more vexing lolz.

I don’t want to tell fans who hate Caulifa and Kale why these hate those characters but there is probably something to be said that while 18 and Videl were strong female characters they never emasculated their men. 18 may be stronger than Kuririn and “wear the pants” but she is still the stay at home mom and stays behind while Kuririn goes on adventures . Videl may have been a firecracker who was initially aggressive towards Gohan but she still softened way up once a relationship started.

Where as Caulifa is incredibly disrespectful and short with Goku and constantly emasculates Cabba.

This doesn't at all apply to #18 when you consider her treatment of Vegeta. The way she defeated Vegeta was written to specifically show her emasculating him. This is especially evident in the anime which fleshes out the scenes. 18 is just one of the best written female characters in the show along with Bulma. It's not a high compliment, mind you, but in comparison to others its apparent. When she emasculates Vegeta, it's iconic and cool as hell. I think you are both off-base with your analysis of why people dislike Kale and Caulifla, especially when you consider #18's popularity.

Plus, #18 emasculates Krillin all the time, but she also supports him. They have a really cool dynamic because Krillin doesn't give a damn about traditional gender roles. It doesn't bother him in the least that his wife is several hundred thousand times stronger than him. And #18's just like, "whatever".

The paradox of Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla. Something that still makes me question why their haters hate them.

On one hand, in a shonen the most popular characters are the most badass ones, rightfully so. And it can't be denied that they, Kefla especially, are kind of badass. Especially Kefla, who required Ultra Instinct to be defeated

In short, they were simply badly written and executed characters introduced in a poor and slap-dash manner. But there's way more to it.

I believe the hate that these two attracted was caused by a perfect storm. The anime is mainly what did it. They dropped the ball their introduction and even how they handled them in their first few appearances. Caulifla sneezing and getting SSJ2 was an instant "heat" magnet. Heat being a wrestling term to denote a negative reaction for the audience. Heat can be a great thing for a villain or other types of antagonist. Typically in wrestling characters who take shortcuts to win or who don't work hard get massive heat. Dragon Ball's own Frieza is a clear indicator of this, as was Vegeta when he was first introduced as an elite villain. Heat doesn't really work for heroes though. Heat could work for Caulifla and Kefla and may have been the writer's purpose since they are antagonists. If that's the case, then it makes sense that they are hated because that is how they were written to be.

And it wasn't just the fact that they took literary shortcuts that got them that initial heat, but the fact that they were brand new, irreverent, ill-tempered and already in a position to where they were "bad people" since they were leading a gang. With more time and storytelling a good writer could take the reader on a journey to build sympathy for these characters before throwing all sorts of powerups at them. Every other member of the Z cast had this, from Yamcha on forward.

Credit to the writers though, Kale and Caulifla improved drastically over time and were even likeable by the end but at the start they were pretty obnoxious and clearly shoehorned in for the sole purpose of selling merchandise. The viewer could visually feel that Toei was "pushing them" another wrestling term. A push denotes that a wrestling promotion is putting a lot of effort on a specific wrestler in order to "get them over" aka to make them popular with the crowd. This usually helps turn that wrestler into a Mega Star like Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. But if the push is too obvious or not at all natural and organic then it creates a backlash such as what was seen at the mid-point in John Cena and Roman Reigns careers. You can also push a person at the wrong time in their careers to disastrous results like with The Rock's earlier persona Rocky Maivia and the backlash of the "Die, Rocky, die!" chants from the fans. These same fans grew to love The Rock when he came into his own organically and moved his way up the card gradually. All that to say that the thumb of the writer can't be too obvious or fans will likely reject it.

I strongly believe that if they were presented in the anime like they were in the manga that there would be much less hate towards them. They are more sympathetic in the manga and their power growth is still very fast but not nearly as crazy as the anime. Kale is also shown to be a badass in her own right instead of mostly helpless until she transforms. I enjoyed their run in the manga from start to finish but still felt like more could have been down with them.

As far as the anime goes, I personally only started liking them in the anime by the time they had like 3-4 back to back episodes fighting Goku that culminated in the Kefla vs Goku fight. That's when we saw more of a slow build of their power and gradual look into their personalities and I liked how they bounced off of Goku. I think the scenario helped, with Goku building his power which in turn allowed the girls to build and grow their own powers. I wish we coudl've gotten more of this before the tournament then have them entire the actual tournament as more seasoned fighters.

If Caulifla and Kale weren't introduced as "noobs" and were introduced as characters that already knew a thing or two about the Super Saiyan forms, or if they weren't just common bandits and were more established as powerhouses. Or if the the story just used their status as "Super Saiyan newbies" and used that to build great stories instead of rushing them to forms that were so initially hard to get like they later did during those 3-4 episodes I liked then I think they'd enjoy the same love that a character such as #18 gets. To be fair, even though they have a lot of haters, they may be even more popular than #18 due to the fact that they're Saiyans. And though they were botched from the start, they have all the potential in the world to be really awesome characters. Or not. This is Dragon Ball we're talking about.

[ABED]

I find it really silly at this point in the series that anyone is bothered that they got Super Saiyan 2 or 1 with ease like it's a level that has much meaning. That can't be it. Notice how popular Super: Broly was. He was basically isolated for years and there was no one to show him how to transform, but within a few minutes, he's able to exceed Super Saiyan God and Blue. There must be a difference. I'm sure there's a difference... *check notes* yep, he's a dude.

I think they'd enjoy the same love that a character such as #18 gets.

Because the reasons she's so strong makes so much sense? I honestly doubt it. There are a lot of arbitrary justifications people have for not liking certain things, and that's fine. I wish people were upfront about it though. A lot of 18's popularity and lack of resistance towards her is down to her being around for years. Is she really that well written? She's fine and she has a few moments but nothing incredible.She's stronger than Super Saiyan because the plot says so. It's the same reason I think if Bulma had been introduced now, people would hate her but because she's been in the series since the beginning, we have an emotional attachment to a character who is VERY often shallow and superficial. It's the sort of thing that if we didn't know her for years, would get her heat.

[BWri]

Who cares about power? Power is just the flavor of the text, it's has nothing to do whether or not the character arcs were good. The arcs were good, they could also be better and I want to see them better. Let's more clearly define Kale and Caulifla's relationship, let's take a look at what their long-term goals are, let's see them get stronger and closer together.

This is the problem with making characters too strong out of the gate, it limits what can be done with them in the future. Instead of giving them and Cabba Ssj in their introduction, why not wait a bit and let the 3 of them earn it ? It would've been far more rewarding to see them unlock it after properly training and going through some adventures with Goku and Vegeta instead of just handing it to them. This is an issue I have with Goten and Kid Trunks as well, they never got that journey we saw the 4 Saiyans before them went through to unlock it.

To Julie, Dragon Ball is a show about power. Every plot thus far has revolved around it. Kale and Caulifla were made Saiyans so that they could be introduced with a high power, gain power quickly, and have access to transformations that allow them to multiply their power hundreds, thousands, and millions of times over. At this juncture, without writing it yourself, you cannot divorce power from Dragon Ball. That said, I'd love the character focus you're proposing or even a slice of life DB show, but even with that the power of the characters would still be involved in the plots because its impossible to ignore Superman's powers when Superman is the star of your show.

To Matches, they could've taken that approach which would have been great or even just focused on Universe 6 some more before the tournament, maybe give them their own arc since they were pretty popular after their introduction in the Tournament of Destroyers. I'd personally prefer it if they had already known about the Super Saiyan forms and just lacked access to the god forms. That would have made more sense. When you think about it, it's silly for them to still be unlocking forms that were already outdated by the Cell saga.

They could also expand their stories to explain why they are so damn strong. Universe 7 went through hell to get where they got to. How come it doesn't feel like the other universes had similar struggles? Instead of making Caulifla and Kale bandits, how come they couldn't have already been established warlords to up the scale? What about being a simple bandit constrained to one planet requires them to have planet busting post-Buu power? Can all Saiyan military peacekeepers planet bust or something? Cabba's some intergalactic military peacekeeper but how come we don't see or hear about his past battles? Can you imagine the struggles he must have gone through to become as strong as a post RoF base Vegeta?

It's just poor or bare bones storytelling all the way around.

[Matches Malone]

I find it really silly at this point in the series that anyone is bothered that they got Super Saiyan 2 or 1 with ease like it's a level that has much meaning.

Notice how popular Super: Broly was. He was basically isolated for years and there was no one to show him how to transform, but within a few minutes, he's able to exceed Super Saiyan God and Blue.

They and Cabba never should've reached those form as fast as they did. That kind of writing is why those forms have lost their impact over the years, as it continued a bad trend started with Goten and Trunks.

That was terrible writing, which is why I think Broly never should've been reintroduced. SsjG and even more so with Blue should only be challenged by the smallest number of beings in the universe, not basically everyone and their kitchen sink.

[kemuri07]

She's fine and she has a few moments but nothing incredible.She's stronger than Super Saiyan because the plot says so. It's the same reason I think if Bulma had been introduced now, people would hate her but because she's been in the series since the beginning, we have an emotional attachment to a character who is VERY often shallow and superficial. It's the sort of thing that if we didn't know her for years, would get her heat.

To be fair--DB was very different when Bulma made her appearance. And her being shallow and superficial is the point of that character and why she's well regarded even today. Though as DB became less an action comedy and more towards typical shonen action, she became more of a generic team mom kind of character.

I wouldn't say 18 is all that well-written, but the fact that she's a female character who can hold her own among the boys makes her stand out. Especially in a series that is notorious for sidelining their female characters--or in the case of Launch, outright forgetting they exist--the moment they're babied up.

[kemuri07]

I find it really silly at this point in the series that anyone is bothered that they got Super Saiyan 2 or 1 with ease like it's a level that has much meaning.

Notice how popular Super: Broly was. He was basically isolated for years and there was no one to show him how to transform, but within a few minutes, he's able to exceed Super Saiyan God and Blue.

They and Cabba never should've reached those form as fast as they did. That kind of writing is why those forms have lost their impact over the years, as it continued a bad trend started with Goten and Trunks.

That was terrible writing, which is why I think Broly never should've been reintroduced. SsjG and even more so with Blue should only be challenged by the smallest number of beings in the universe, not basically everyone and their kitchen sink.

Toriyama was making this shit up as he went along; his introduction of "S-cells" which are basically just midichloreans, is pretty much representative at that. It's why I no longer really care about power levels, because it's clear the show itself stopped giving a shit about them.

A lot of other shows were able to learn from DB and craft better rule sets that make it a lot harder for the power creep to set in.

[Matches Malone]

I'd personally prefer it if they had already known about the Super Saiyan forms and just lacked access to the god forms. That would have made more sense.

Can you imagine the struggles Cabba must have gone through to become as strong as a post RoF base Vegeta?

Why not take it a step further and have Ssj1 be the base form of those Saiyans ? Show that they're so biologically advanced from U7's saiyans that Ssj is just the norm on their planet, it's not even Super. It'd be better than acting like it's a big deal when they unlock it 10 minutes after their introduction. The writers are trying to recapture what made some of the classic transformations iconic, but they don't understand that part of that came from the build up to them.

The problem is that Super's writers are more interested in rushing everything than building things up naturally.

[Matches Malone]

Toriyama was making this shit up as he went along; his introduction of "S-cells" which are basically just midichloreans, is pretty much representative at that. It's why I no longer really care about power levels, because it's clear the show itself stopped giving a shit about them.

A lot of other shows were able to learn from DB and craft better rule sets that make it a lot harder for the power creep to set in.

No one's asking for detailed power numbers, but there should be basic power scaling that lets you know where character A stands compared to character B. For the most part, the original manga was pretty good at this, you knew where the characters stood compared to one another in any given situation.

This is what annoys me the most, other shows took what the original story did right and improve on it, while Super not only didn't learn from the original's mistakes, it somehow made even more mistakes, far more in fact.

[ABED]

I find it really silly at this point in the series that anyone is bothered that they got Super Saiyan 2 or 1 with ease like it's a level that has much meaning.

Notice how popular Super: Broly was. He was basically isolated for years and there was no one to show him how to transform, but within a few minutes, he's able to exceed Super Saiyan God and Blue.

They and Cabba never should've reached those form as fast as they did. That kind of writing is why those forms have lost their impact over the years, as it continued a bad trend started with Goten and Trunks.

That was terrible writing, which is why I think Broly never should've been reintroduced. SsjG and even more so with Blue should only be challenged by the smallest number of beings in the universe, not basically everyone and their kitchen sink.

Why not? Because of some made up logic about some made up power? The fact that there are numbers are why those forms lost their impact over the years.

They could also expand their stories to explain why they are so damn strong.

Exposition is not the answer. It doesn't matter. What do they want? What are they willing to do to get it? Those two questions are the most important. I don't see how exposition is going to make a damn bit of difference. There's a good reason you enjoyed seeing their battle against Goku - it was dramatizing their story, not just explaining it. If the story had explained why they are so strong people would've still complained about that somehow.

[BWri]

I find it really silly at this point in the series that anyone is bothered that they got Super Saiyan 2 or 1 with ease like it's a level that has much meaning.

Because the plot tells us that they are newbies that have no idea what Super Saiyan even is. If they are introduced with Super Saiyan 1 and 2, boom, problem solved and no one would care. How'd they get it? Well, they fought world ending battles, simple explanation. The writing just constantly defeats itself. The form itself does have meaning otherwise the time we spent investing in these characters and their growth has no meaning.That's why people care.

That can't be it. Notice how popular Super: Broly was. He was basically isolated for years and there was no one to show him how to transform, but within a few minutes, he's able to exceed Super Saiyan God and Blue. There must be a difference. I'm sure there's a difference... *check notes* yep, he's a dude.

Kale and Caulifla are also popular. And I don't think you remember how much hate Broly got before his new movie came out. You can be both popular and reviled. I also dislike that aspect of new Broly, but you are likely correct about why he is more widely accepted. There is a degree of sexism involved and it's undeniable but it isn't near as integral to the hate of Kale and Caulifla as I've seen many try to explain. For a long time in this same fandom, the vast majority of people were legitimately upset that Pan never got Super Saiyan. These same people would be overjoyed if Kale and Caulifla were better written characters.

"I think they'd enjoy the same love that a character such as #18 gets."
Because the reasons she's so strong makes so much sense? I honestly doubt it. There are a lot of arbitrary justifications people have for not liking certain things, and that's fine.

I don't think logical reasons that connect her strength directly to the plot is arbitrary but I notice a lot of people throw that word around. #18 along with #17 are unique life forms, made by a scientist whose goal was to kill an army shattering being who's strength constantly increases by leaps and bounds. Gero created a being with unlimited energy, a feat remarkable in a of itself. He meticulously calculated Goku's insane rate of growth since the RR arc and created beings that murder him and his friends. That alone is more care and attention than was put into bandit Saiyan girl. She's strong cuz she's a Saiyan. "Okay, but Saiyans typically have a baseline of strength and its nowhere close to any of Frieza's forms. Is there a reason she's so strong?" She's a Saiyan and a bandit. "Does she rob space tyrants or something?" No just footsoldiers. "Was she in any major planet ending battles or anything like that?" No. She leads a gang and robs people who carry guns to survive. "Okay."

I wish people were upfront about it though. A lot of 18's popularity and lack of resistance towards her is down to her being around for years. Is she really that well written? She's fine and she has a few moments but nothing incredible.She's stronger than Super Saiyan because the plot says so.

Sure, everyone is so strong because the plot says so, but the difference is in the writing. #18 doesn't seem like she was written to sell toys, though technically she kind of is since a certain editor didn't like "the geezer and the fatso"." But her incorporation into the story came at a logical point and really, when you get right down to it, she could be introduced at any point since her level of power relies on whoever Gero studied prior to her creation.

For Caulifla specifically, we already know too much about Saiyans for her baseline strength to make sense given the escalation of power in the series. And at the point in the series where power has ballooned out of control, she needs a good story to insert her organically into the mix. She simply doesn't have one. She's bandit, gangster Saiyan girl. If the story made sense, she'd probably be as strong as Raditz or Saiyan arc Vegeta at max given that U6 Saiyans seem overall stronger the U7. She's not traveling to planets conquering them. She's just stealing food, fleeing guards, etc. Stuff Yamcha was doing in the first arc of Z. What about that lifestyle should make her stronger than anyone from the Namek, Cell, and Buu arcs?

It's the same reason I think if Bulma had been introduced now, people would hate her but because she's been in the series since the beginning, we have an emotional attachment to a character who is VERY often shallow and superficial. It's the sort of thing that if we didn't know her for years, would get her heat.

Bulma would be fine because she occupies a unique space. She is the tech expert which we don't see enough of in DB. If she was introduced now stronger than most of the cast and swapping blows with Vegeta for fun ... with no explanation for why she's so strong then yes, people would likely throw heaps of hate upon her because "why the hell is this blue haired human stronger than muh Gohan, muh Piccolo, and muh Krillin". You have to explain that stuff and the more the power increases the more you have to provide good explanations for why new strong people exist. Or you can just stop this crazy power escalation. I'm fine with either way.

[Matches Malone]

For a long time in this same fandom, the vast majority of people were legitimately upset that Pan never got Super Saiyan.

Understandable so, as unlike these new saiyans, GT took the time to develop Pan throughout its run. Pan reaching Super Saiyan during the Super 17 or shadow dragons arc would've made a lot of sense, but like a lot of GT, it was a missed opportunity.

[ABED]

Because the plot tells us that they are newbies that have no idea what Super Saiyan even is.

But they meet someone who does know it. They aren't figuring it out on their own. They were taught.

Well, they fought world ending battles, simple explanation.

"What, they just know Super Saiyan? That's bad writing. We didn't see them earn it." It's all made up BS transformations.

The form itself does have meaning otherwise the time we spent investing in these characters and their growth has no meaning.That's why people care.

But they do have meaning. They are learning and growing. Goku is excited because in the short time he knows them, they are growing by leaps and bounds, but still lack refinement. The transformations have meaning for the girls because it shows they are achieving their goals of getting more powerful

Kale and Caulifla are also popular. And I don't think you remember how much hate Broly got before his new movie came out.

On the net by fans, not by general audiences. If he was really as hated as much as you imply, the film wouldn't have made over 100 million.

He meticulously calculated Goku's insane rate of growth since the RR arc and created beings that murder him and his friends.

He didn't. He figured Goku's power would top off well before it did due to his age. he didn't even see Goku on Namek or know about the Super Saiyans. He was surprised about that. His creations are as strong as they are because the plot needs them to be.

[Matches Malone]

Because the plot tells us that they are newbies that have no idea what Super Saiyan even is.

But they meet someone who does know it. They aren't figuring it out on their own. They were taught.

Well, they fought world ending battles, simple explanation.

"What, they just know Super Saiyan? That's bad writing. We didn't see them earn it." It's all made up BS transformations.

It amazes me the amount of excuses people make for modern DB's shortcomings. Any other franchise (and GT) would kill to have such a loyal fan base.

[ABED]

Because the plot tells us that they are newbies that have no idea what Super Saiyan even is.

But they meet someone who does know it. They aren't figuring it out on their own. They were taught.

Well, they fought world ending battles, simple explanation.

"What, they just know Super Saiyan? That's bad writing. We didn't see them earn it." It's all made up BS transformations.

It amazes me the amount of excuses people make for modern DB's shortcomings. Any other franchise (and GT) would kill to have such a loyal fan base.

Yeah that's not condescending at all. Your opinion on what constitutes a shortcoming isn't a fact, Mr. Wayne. The powers and how they should work is arbitrary.

Bulma would be fine because she occupies a unique space. She is the tech expert which we don't see enough of in DB. If she was introduced now stronger than most of the cast and swapping blows with Vegeta for fun ... with no explanation for why she's so strong then yes, people would likely throw heaps of hate upon her because "why the hell is this blue haired human stronger than muh Gohan, muh Piccolo, and muh Krillin". You have to explain that stuff and the more the power increases the more you have to provide good explanations for why new strong people exist. Or you can just stop this crazy power escalation. I'm fine with either way.

They wouldn't care that she was useful to the plot if her personality rubbed them the wrong way. Youall seem to harp on the explanation as mattering and it's not that important. It's the story that matters not exposition of nonsensical fictional BS. I realize that geeks love to turn things into math problems, but stories aren't RPG's, they don't need to be 100% consistent. For most people, you don't need to explain this stuff. It doesn't matter. It's not that important. Personality, the quality of the fights, motivation, characterization, character development are the things that matter to people, not exposition.

[Matches Malone]

Yeah that's not condescending at all.

I'm not trying to be, I'm serious, modern DB gets away with practically everything. I don't know why its fans turn themselves into pretzels to defend it, it'd be easier to just say that if modern DB does it then it's OK.

[ABED]

Yeah that's not condescending at all.

I'm not trying to be, I'm serious, modern DB gets away with practically everything. I don't know why its fans turn themselves into pretzels to defend it, it'd be easier to just say that if modern DB does it then it's OK.

You failed then. It could just be, and hear me out, we don't agree with you. Super isn't great, but it's also not the antichrist. It's enjoyable and that's fine.

[Matches Malone]

It could just be, and hear me out, we don't agree with you.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right, but it's hard not to notice other aspects of the franchise like GT get called out on the same things Super gets defended for doing. For example, a good number of fans, if not the majority dragged episode of Bardock through the mud for Bardock reaching Ssj easily and cheapening it, yet U6's Saiyans are defended for the exact same thing.

[Kinokima]

It could just be, and hear me out, we don't agree with you.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right, but it's hard not to notice other aspects of the franchise like GT get called out on the same things Super gets defended for doing. For example, a good number of fans, if not the majority dragged episode of Bardock through the mud for Bardock reaching Ssj easily and cheapening it, yet U6's Saiyans are defended for the exact same thing.

Kale and Caulifla get a lot of hate as well though

And Bardock is also extremely popular