Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30

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Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:33 pm

Image

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 107 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

I'm caught up again, just in time for KBABZ to suddenly be busy with guide work and unable to write a lot of trivia. So once again I will be presenting you some solo trivia! (Except not really; KBABZ wrote the two entries on the OP/ED change, the two Missed Trivia entries, and gave notes on several of my entries)

Previous thread: Week 106 (GT 21-25)
Next thread: Week 108 (GT 31-35)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 470 - Gohan and Goten… The Worst Brotherly Quarrel?! (GT episode 26)
Ocean dub title: Gohan and Goten: The Worst Brotherly Spat!
Funimation dub title: Saiyan Hunting
Originally aired 30th of October 1996

Written by: Junki Takegami
Episode director: Takahiro Imamura
Animation supervisor: Yūji Hakamada


Vegeta goes shopping.

Trivia:
.

Episode 471 - Ambition Achieved?! Vegeta is Taken Over (GT episode 27)
Ocean dub title: Baby's True Form Is Revealed: Vegeta's Long Awaited Showdown!
Funimation dub title: The Attack on Vegeta
Originally aired 6th of November 1996

Written by: Daisuke Yajima
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Kazuya Hisada


Vegeta gets road rage.

Trivia:
.

Episode 472 - Goku Returns… All of Earth is my Enemy?! (GT episode 28)
Ocean dub title: Goku Returns: Is the Whole World My Enemy?
Funimation dub title: A Worldwide Problem
Originally aired 13th of November 1996

Written by: Daisuke Yajima
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Akira Inagami


Vegeta is a bad dad to Trunks.

Trivia:
.

Episode 473 - This is Super Awful?! Super Saiyan 3 is Defeated!! (GT episode 29)
Ocean dub title: Super-Dangerous?! Super-Saiyan Three Is Defeated!
Funimation dub title: The Fall of the Saiyans
Originally aired 27th of November 1996

Written by: Junki Takegami
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama


Vegeta fails to kill Goku, again.

Trivia:
.

Episode 474 - Goku is Annihilated?! I’m Dead (GT episode 30)
Ocean dub title: I've Died? Goku Plays Parcheesi!
Funimation dub title: The Game After Life
Originally aired 4th of December 1996

Written by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Takahiro Imamura
Animation supervisor: Takeo Ide


Vegeta makes a planet.

Trivia:
.

____

Trivia written by Robo and KBABZ. Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:56 am

This week's episodes continue to be quality entertainment! But also things get really dumb and silly!

The Son family dynamics were very enjoyable. I liked watching Baby attempt to play along with everyone and his interpretation of Earth customs. Chichi was very well-written here. I liked her showing her rustic side, when she refers to the "brotherly quarrel" between Gohan/Goten. Chichi is one of my favorite characters, so it's nice to see GT treat her so well. The Gohan/Goten(Baby) dynamic reminded me of the Jaws movies for some reason...

Piccolo was just embarrassing. To see him get taken out like that is just sad. And he still hasn't removed his cape and turban since the Cell saga, which tells you all you need to know.

- The pacing of these episodes is good. Interesting when compared to how Z would have done things. Here the story keeps moving right along.

Episode 27 is one of my favorites in the series. I used to rewatch the fansub at least once a week back in the day. Vegeta is great here. Really, he's great throughout all of GT. He probably got the best writing out of everyone else. I love his fight with Baby and attitude, and I like how he deals with Goten.

- It looks like Bra was aged up a few years, from around Pan's age to a teenager almost.

I love the flashback sequence of the Tsufuru/Saiya conflict. The score combined with Baby's voiceover makes it an engrossing experience. Seeing Vegeta helpless to Baby's power feels very believable. Great work by all involved. It's also interesting to see the differences between this version of the Tsufuru/Saiya story versus the previous one in the Playdia Lost Movie and the DBZ filler episode. I remember being surprised that FUNimation stuck with the "Tuffle" name from the Saban days. Having been so long and sounding so silly, I probably expected they would change it.

- I think that the writers totally forgot that Trunks had been possessed by Baby earlier, and only came up with the eggs stuff later on. Trunks becoming one of Baby's slaves comes across as an afterthought.

I liked the Son family being so cold-blooded and attacking Goku and Pan! Then things begin to get pretty dumb with Baby-Vegeta and Goku's fight. SSJ3 Goku looks silly. And then that little prayer circle with all of the Saiya characters and Baby in the middle!!! His ultimate form is ridiculous. And then after overpowering Goku, he STILL needs to borrow energy for a final attack?? Lol.

I zoned out on Sugoroku Space. It's a bit much. I wonder if "gambler" might have been a better translated title than "gangster" for Sū Gorō.

I enjoyed that ridiculous spaceship reveal scene at Capsule Corp. It was so over the top with that track playing in the background. It went on forever!

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:53 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:56 am I wonder if "gambler" might have been a better translated title than "gangster" for Sū Gorō.
The line is rendered in the Ocean dub as "I'm just a gambling man named Sugoro"

--

Sidenote: I realised I neglected to fill in the Funimation episode titles and even one Ocean episode title, so I've just fixed that.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:12 am

I remember back in the day seeing episode 29 before several episodes that came before it, and seeing Vegeta with white hair. I remember when the episode thinking maybe it was because he had aged, which confused me given saiyans are meant to retain their youth longer :lol: . Suffice to say, and even before seeing the earlier episodes I quickly caught on.

Something cool about episode 27 was seeing how Vegeta protects Bra from unwanted male attention, tearing the wheel off their car and making them fall into the sea was some way of saying no one messes with his daughter while he's around.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:37 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:12 am .

Something cool about episode 27 was seeing how Vegeta protects Bra from unwanted male attention, tearing the wheel off their car and making them fall into the sea was some way of saying no one messes with his daughter while he's around.
It’s only a little creepy that she’s like 8. Those dudes are at least 18

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:32 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:53 am
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:56 am I wonder if "gambler" might have been a better translated title than "gangster" for Sū Gorō.
The line is rendered in the Ocean dub as "I'm just a gambling man named Sugoro"
Ah I see, thanks. Yakuza can be translated as both "gangster" and "gambler", so it's good to hear what Ocean went with.

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:37 am It’s only a little creepy that she’s like 8. Those dudes are at least 18
Ehh, I think the bigger offense is that they're hitting on her in front of her Dad.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:37 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:32 pm

Ehh, I think the bigger offense is that they're hitting on her in front of her Dad.
No, it’s definitely because she’s 8.

But you’re uhhh not helping your case there buddy on having a track record of saying questionable things 😐

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:35 pm

That scene with those guys hitting on Bra will always be extremely weird, but sadly, I can’t say it’s out of the ordinary for GT. I just wish I could understand the thought process that went behind it. Did the writers genuinely forget that Bra is younger than Pan, or did they just not care?

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:07 am

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:35 pm That scene with those guys hitting on Bra will always be extremely weird, but sadly, I can’t say it’s out of the ordinary for GT. I just wish I could understand the thought process that went behind it. Did the writers genuinely forget that Bra is younger than Pan, or did they just not care?
Like I said I think that they just decided to make her a few years older than Pan for whatever reason. It would be weird if Bra were actually depicted as an 8-10 year old, but I never got that impression.

I doubt that the writers forgot. Maybe they just thought it would be interesting to have Vegeta have a teenage daughter. Or maybe they thought that Toriyama's design for Bra would be more appropriate for an older girl. Who knows.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:36 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:07 amLike I said I think that they just decided to make her a few years older than Pan for whatever reason. It would be weird if Bra were actually depicted as an 8-10 year old, but I never got that impression.

I doubt that the writers forgot. Maybe they just thought it would be interesting to have Vegeta have a teenage daughter. Or maybe they thought that Toriyama's design for Bra would be more appropriate for an older girl. Who knows.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say TOEI never thought fans like us would look into it so much because they merely see Dragon Ball as a toy commercial, not literature, or even a show that people would analyse and try to make sense of. This is the same company who scrapped the original audio masters completely oblivious to how sought after they would be decades later.
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:30 pm

So, I have some thoughts on this week's episodes as a whole, but I mainly wanted to make this post to discuss something spurred on by a line from Baby at the end of episode 30, where he declares he will conquer the universe. This ties well into something I wanted to get into about Baby as a villain, which KBABZ and I have discussed a bit: A lot of people criticise him because he's wasted potential, because he has legitimate beef against the Saiyans for them wiping out his people. But I don't think that's a fair criticism, because at that point it's much like criticising the Androids arc for not being about Dr. Gero wanting revenge for the death of his son; it's not a flaw in the story, it's a totally different story that you wish happened, and you're getting angry at this story for not being that totally different thing.
Baby isn't the story of the last survivor of an unfairly-wiped-out race striking back against his aggressors and being in the right, having legitimate beef. It's the story of someone using a decades-old tragedy as an excuse to commit murder and subjugate an entire planet.

Now, if you really want to see the story of Baby being in the right, go write a fanfic, or go read someone else's. Personally, I really like the non-obvious angle of the Tsufurians actually being somewhat implied to have maybe even been high-tech conquerors who hadn't escaped their own planet (much like the worst parts of human society in our own earth history), who were wiped out by a stronger force of conquerors, and now those stronger conquerors have also been destroyed by yet another, stronger force of conquerors (Freeza and his lot), who were also eventually wiped out, and now the last survivors of the Saiyans are far more mellowed out, they sort of escaped the cycle. Meanwhile Baby is just a madman wanting revenge.
Kaio did describe the Tsufurians as a basically peaceful people, but Vegeta describes the Tsufurians as having a "Wretched ki" in the Simmons subs, and having an "Evil energy" in the Ocean dub, neither suggesting the Tsufurians were especially nice people, at least by the time Vegeta came to know them.

One possibility is that the Tsufurians were originally good people, but their conflict with the Saiyans brought out a darker side of their nature, which Baby is a reflection of, in which case Vegeta's fight with Baby is the consequences of his own heritage coming back to bite him.

Another possibility is that the Tsufurians were always a legitimately good people conquered by the Saiyans, and Baby was a terrible mistake; he's defying everything his creators stood for, and he's exactly the sort of monster he was designed to destroy. Realistically, would a good society want their legacy to be the cold-blooded murder of two well-loved men and the total subjugation of their families, and the entire planet they live on? It's an interesting example of something truly terrible coming from a good people trying to fight something awful by any means necessary, in this way.

Realistically, with the way Baby defies what Kaio said the Tsufurians stood for (he says they were a basically peaceful people), Baby could easily be working under just a Freudian excuse, as KBABZ put it when we talked about it. Just using the atrocities the Saiyans committed against the Tsufurians as an excuse to do the bad things he already wanted to do. Hell (again as KBABZ pointed out to me), he spends 95% of his screentime possessing the body of a Saiyan. He's hypocrasy on a stick!
Besides, Baby himself isn't actually a Tsufurian. He was created by them, and their genetics figure into his physiology, but he's not one of them, he's just a creation of theirs; a truly horrible one. After all, Skynet isn't human, even though it was created by a human (and that human is pretty horrified about it in the second film, when he's told about it).

Basically, I like that Baby's story is a pretty simple one that has some very neat implications and tie-ins to the history of Dragon Ball's lore, and specifically into Goku and Vegeta's heritage, and I think there are a lot of deeper readings of the Baby situation that are as interesting as his backstory as a Tsufurian villain would imply (I've gone into three of them, there are several others I'm sure you can all think about). It's not handled perfectly, nothing in Dragon Ball ever is, but it's a neat take, Baby is a cool villain (better than Cell in my opinion and in KBABZ's), and on the whole I like how this arc turned out, even if it doesn't stand up to the best of the Toriyama run.

TL;DR: Baby is explicitly an evil villain, and it's a choice that works and makes sense. Anyone frustrated that he's not a good-guy revenge-seeker isn't disliking this story, they're wishing they could watch a completely different story, and IMO they need to re-evaluate their ideals if they think revenge can ever be a good act. And yet I see this view all over the place. I simply do not understand this take, and I wish it would die because there are about a hundred million far better criticisms of this arc.

Anyway, with that massively overlong rant done, if any of you are curious to read my thoughts on each of the individual episodes (because apparently you're masochists who'd like to read even more of my drivel), here you go:
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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:04 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:30 pm So, I have some thoughts on this week's episodes as a whole, but I mainly wanted to make this post to discuss something spurred on by a line from Baby at the end of episode 30, where he declares he will conquer the universe. This ties well into something I wanted to get into about Baby as a villain, which KBABZ and I have discussed a bit: A lot of people criticise him because he's wasted potential, because he has legitimate beef against the Saiyans for them wiping out his people. But I don't think that's a fair criticism, because at that point it's much like criticising the Androids arc for not being about Dr. Gero wanting revenge for the death of his son; it's not a flaw in the story, it's a totally different story that you wish happened, and you're getting angry at this story for not being that totally different thing.
Baby isn't the story of the last survivor of an unfairly-wiped-out race striking back against his aggressors and being in the right, having legitimate beef. It's the story of someone using a decades-old tragedy as an excuse to commit murder and subjugate an entire planet.

Now, if you really want to see the story of Baby being in the right, go write a fanfic, or go read someone else's. Personally, I really like the non-obvious angle of the Tsufurians actually being somewhat implied to have maybe even been high-tech conquerors who hadn't escaped their own planet (much like the worst parts of human society in our own earth history), who were wiped out by a stronger force of conquerors, and now those stronger conquerors have also been destroyed by yet another, stronger force of conquerors (Freeza and his lot), who were also eventually wiped out, and now the last survivors of the Saiyans are far more mellowed out, they sort of escaped the cycle. Meanwhile Baby is just a madman wanting revenge.
Kaio did describe the Tsufurians as a basically peaceful people, but Vegeta describes the Tsufurians as having a "Wretched ki" in the Simmons subs, and having an "Evil energy" in the Ocean dub, neither suggesting the Tsufurians were especially nice people, at least by the time Vegeta came to know them.

One possibility is that the Tsufurians were originally good people, but their conflict with the Saiyans brought out a darker side of their nature, which Baby is a reflection of, in which case Vegeta's fight with Baby is the consequences of his own heritage coming back to bite him.

Another possibility is that the Tsufurians were always a legitimately good people conquered by the Saiyans, and Baby was a terrible mistake; he's defying everything his creators stood for, and he's exactly the sort of monster he was designed to destroy. Realistically, would a good society want their legacy to be the cold-blooded murder of two well-loved men and the total subjugation of their families, and the entire planet they live on? It's an interesting example of something truly terrible coming from a good people trying to fight something awful by any means necessary, in this way.

Realistically, with the way Baby defies what Kaio said the Tsufurians stood for (he says they were a basically peaceful people), Baby could easily be working under just a Freudian excuse, as KBABZ put it when we talked about it. Just using the atrocities the Saiyans committed against the Tsufurians as an excuse to do the bad things he already wanted to do. Hell (again as KBABZ pointed out to me), he spends 95% of his screentime possessing the body of a Saiyan. He's hypocrasy on a stick!
Besides, Baby himself isn't actually a Tsufurian. He was created by them, and their genetics figure into his physiology, but he's not one of them, he's just a creation of theirs; a truly horrible one. After all, Skynet isn't human, even though it was created by a human (and that human is pretty horrified about it in the second film, when he's told about it).

Basically, I like that Baby's story is a pretty simple one that has some very neat implications and tie-ins to the history of Dragon Ball's lore, and specifically into Goku and Vegeta's heritage, and I think there are a lot of deeper readings of the Baby situation that are as interesting as his backstory as a Tsufurian villain would imply (I've gone into three of them, there are several others I'm sure you can all think about). It's not handled perfectly, nothing in Dragon Ball ever is, but it's a neat take, Baby is a cool villain (better than Cell in my opinion and in KBABZ's), and on the whole I like how this arc turned out, even if it doesn't stand up to the best of the Toriyama run.

TL;DR: Baby is explicitly an evil villain, and it's a choice that works and makes sense. Anyone frustrated that he's not a good-guy revenge-seeker isn't disliking this story, they're wishing they could watch a completely different story, and IMO they need to re-evaluate their ideals if they think revenge can ever be a good act. And yet I see this view all over the place. I simply do not understand this take, and I wish it would die because there are about a hundred million far better criticisms of this arc.

Anyway, with that massively overlong rant done, if any of you are curious to read my thoughts on each of the individual episodes (because apparently you're masochists who'd like to read even more of my drivel), here you go:
In the case of Dr. Gero, the idea that he has a dead son was never in the original text. It was just something that Toriyama randomly came up with over 20 years later. Plus, Goku wasn’t even the one who killed his son.

Anyway, I actually do agree that Baby doesn’t need to be a sympathetic villain, but I think they could’ve maybe given him more of an actual philosophy. Maybe he tries to justify his actions by arguing that the universe would be better off if free will didn’t exist? Ironically, the FUNimation dub seemed to toy with that idea on a couple of occasions.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:15 am

By "wretched", I think Vegeta is just expressing his contempt towards the Tsufuru, considering they were his arch-nemesis that he looks down upon. I don't see Vegeta referring to someone else as "evil", and if he ever did, he probably wouldn't use the term mijime.

As for Baby, I thought it was made clear that he was an unmistakably evil villain from the start, so I don't understand how anyone could think that he was some kind of avenging good guy. I also don't think that he needed to have any kind of deeper philosophical motivation. DB has always been more about simplicity. Baby wants to conquer the universe in order to ensure that the Tsufuru race is never threatened again. That's enough for me. I can't see any potentially deeper story when it would revolve around characters the likes of Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:55 am

Robo4900 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:30 pm So, I have some thoughts on this week's episodes as a whole, but I mainly wanted to make this post to discuss something spurred on by a line from Baby at the end of episode 30, where he declares he will conquer the universe. This ties well into something I wanted to get into about Baby as a villain, which KBABZ and I have discussed a bit: A lot of people criticise him because he's wasted potential, because he has legitimate beef against the Saiyans for them wiping out his people. But I don't think that's a fair criticism, because at that point it's much like criticising the Androids arc for not being about Dr. Gero wanting revenge for the death of his son; it's not a flaw in the story, it's a totally different story that you wish happened, and you're getting angry at this story for not being that totally different thing.
Baby isn't the story of the last survivor of an unfairly-wiped-out race striking back against his aggressors and being in the right, having legitimate beef. It's the story of someone using a decades-old tragedy as an excuse to commit murder and subjugate an entire planet.

Now, if you really want to see the story of Baby being in the right, go write a fanfic, or go read someone else's. Personally, I really like the non-obvious angle of the Tsufurians actually being somewhat implied to have maybe even been high-tech conquerors who hadn't escaped their own planet (much like the worst parts of human society in our own earth history), who were wiped out by a stronger force of conquerors, and now those stronger conquerors have also been destroyed by yet another, stronger force of conquerors (Freeza and his lot), who were also eventually wiped out, and now the last survivors of the Saiyans are far more mellowed out, they sort of escaped the cycle. Meanwhile Baby is just a madman wanting revenge.
Kaio did describe the Tsufurians as a basically peaceful people, but Vegeta describes the Tsufurians as having a "Wretched ki" in the Simmons subs, and having an "Evil energy" in the Ocean dub, neither suggesting the Tsufurians were especially nice people, at least by the time Vegeta came to know them.

One possibility is that the Tsufurians were originally good people, but their conflict with the Saiyans brought out a darker side of their nature, which Baby is a reflection of, in which case Vegeta's fight with Baby is the consequences of his own heritage coming back to bite him.

Another possibility is that the Tsufurians were always a legitimately good people conquered by the Saiyans, and Baby was a terrible mistake; he's defying everything his creators stood for, and he's exactly the sort of monster he was designed to destroy. Realistically, would a good society want their legacy to be the cold-blooded murder of two well-loved men and the total subjugation of their families, and the entire planet they live on? It's an interesting example of something truly terrible coming from a good people trying to fight something awful by any means necessary, in this way.

Realistically, with the way Baby defies what Kaio said the Tsufurians stood for (he says they were a basically peaceful people), Baby could easily be working under just a Freudian excuse, as KBABZ put it when we talked about it. Just using the atrocities the Saiyans committed against the Tsufurians as an excuse to do the bad things he already wanted to do. Hell (again as KBABZ pointed out to me), he spends 95% of his screentime possessing the body of a Saiyan. He's hypocrasy on a stick!
Besides, Baby himself isn't actually a Tsufurian. He was created by them, and their genetics figure into his physiology, but he's not one of them, he's just a creation of theirs; a truly horrible one. After all, Skynet isn't human, even though it was created by a human (and that human is pretty horrified about it in the second film, when he's told about it).

Basically, I like that Baby's story is a pretty simple one that has some very neat implications and tie-ins to the history of Dragon Ball's lore, and specifically into Goku and Vegeta's heritage, and I think there are a lot of deeper readings of the Baby situation that are as interesting as his backstory as a Tsufurian villain would imply (I've gone into three of them, there are several others I'm sure you can all think about). It's not handled perfectly, nothing in Dragon Ball ever is, but it's a neat take, Baby is a cool villain (better than Cell in my opinion and in KBABZ's), and on the whole I like how this arc turned out, even if it doesn't stand up to the best of the Toriyama run.

TL;DR: Baby is explicitly an evil villain, and it's a choice that works and makes sense. Anyone frustrated that he's not a good-guy revenge-seeker isn't disliking this story, they're wishing they could watch a completely different story, and IMO they need to re-evaluate their ideals if they think revenge can ever be a good act. And yet I see this view all over the place. I simply do not understand this take, and I wish it would die because there are about a hundred million far better criticisms of this arc.

Anyway, with that massively overlong rant done, if any of you are curious to read my thoughts on each of the individual episodes (because apparently you're masochists who'd like to read even more of my drivel), here you go:
That's fair, though it begs the question could a story about Baby being a sympathetic character have been better than the story we got, where he was just another generic super villain? The former would have been more interesting because it would be just the kind of multi-layered antagonist Dragon Ball could have had, that would have been adventurous, refreshing, and inspiring. The latter is not just disappointing because its more of the same, but it's where the flaws of GT as a whole begin to show. It tries a lot of new things (examples include Goku becoming a kid, which limits his potential, the Dragon Balls which have always been our heroes biggest crutch coming back to bite them in the ass, etc) but then plays it safe. And yeah Dragon Ball has always been more about simplicity, but it's good for franchises to evolve, which GT had plenty of golden opportunities for. I'm not saying GT has to become this masterclass in storytelling, but it had the potential to surpass Z at least. I agree Baby is better than Cell, and the connection to the saiyans is rather neat. I would probably need to think on whether I prefer the Baby or Cell arc as the latter isn't anything special when you take out the Father-Son Kamehame Ha, which is more iconic than anything.
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:15 amAs for Baby, I thought it was made clear that he was an unmistakably evil villain from the start, so I don't understand how anyone could think that he was some kind of avenging good guy. I also don't think that he needed to have any kind of deeper philosophical motivation.
Yup. Like Robo4900 I've listened to the criticisms of Baby, but rewatching these episodes, seeing Baby wreck havoc in the city and treat humans like trash just reaffirmed it for me. Baby is not misunderstood, no matter how you slice it he is evil, just like King Piccolo, Freeza, etc. He knows it, hes proud of it, he feels no remorse and there's no excuse for the atrocities he commits. As I said though while he didn't need a more justified philosophical motivation it would have been appreciated.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

Check out my blogs https://dragonballireland.wordpress.com/ and https://dragonballinternational.wordpress.com/

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Re: Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 107 - GT 26-30 (CURRENT WEEK)

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:10 am

Episode 26 - Gohan and Goten… The Worst Brotherly Quarrel?!

The terror of Baby continues to build as we see the battle between himself and Goten underway, and the threat himself and further inhabitants poses to other characters, causing even more tension with Goku, Trunks and Pan still on some faraway planet.

The fight between Goten and Baby is exciting, both because of the showcase of Baby’s powers, and Goten continuously trying to impress Palace. While Goten vs Baby is a short fight it serves as a great reminder of how sly and devious Baby can be. Tokunaga’s music captures both Baby’s surprise antics and his sneakiness as he finds a way to control Goten when he loses focus by focusing on his Kamehame Ha and not his bodily position and awareness. While GT fights often suffer from lackluster choreography Baby’s tactics were clever writing on Junki Takegami’s part. Goten taking a call from Palace and ensuring her he was doing everything he can do to keep her safe was also a sweet and charming moment. The fact Palace was also in denial about Goten not being himself when Baby took over was also bittersweet, as it shows her naivety and is unfortunate to see her being silently rejected.

Interestingly this episode would be without humour in the absence of Mr Satan. The comic relief of Mr Satan hanging by Palace’s waist, showing his fear retains his status as the false prophet that subverts any expectations of allegedly being the strongest martial artist on Earth. Baby Goten shows awareness of Mr Satan being a bumbling fool as he drops Mr Satan without hurting him, likely doing so to put the man out of his misery. To a lesser extent, Goku attempting to find the Dragon Ball was charming in its own right, being a show of Goku’s childlike love of adventure he never lost even when he was physically an adult. The dinosaur crying after being shrunk and he needed a bandage on his stomach was somewhat unsettling though, as it was undeserved and took away from the innocent humour of Goku simply going inside him to get a Dragon Ball.

While Baby’s reign continues to be developed there are also signs of growing awareness alongside the ignorance of those oblivious to what he’s capable of, like Palace. In the midst of the party on Goku, Trunks and Pan’s ship to celebrate gathering six Dragon Balls, Goku begins to ponder what Baby must be doing elsewhere, which shows his awareness, which Pan needed to become more conscious of. Although given Goku’s experience with fighting numerous villains to date its to be expected, but a welcome reminder that being turned into a child didn’t negate everything he learned as an adult. Similarly, the shot of Piccolo sensing something was neat to demonstrate his cognizance, and a great re-introduction to the ever meditating character.

The scenes with Chi-Chi and Bulma are exactly what this episode needs to juxtapose the awareness of characters like Goku and Piccolo with the obliviousness, or perhaps idealism of those that want to live a regular day on Earth. Chi-Chi plays the ever concerned, loving mother taking care of Goten with reassurance from Bulma, like an older sister. Gohan also provides some assurance Goten will be alright, although his presence and Goten’s return soon deprive Chi-Chi and Bulma of any typical day, merely worrying about Goku, Trunks and Pan’s safety, and makes no secret of the fact the danger to the Earth is far greater even before a year has passed since the Dragon Balls being used.

While Baby is typically treated as the generic major villain, having him try to follow Earth’s social cues while looking for Vegeta was a neat storytelling decision, and gives him a challenge in the form of seamlessly blending in to control other human’s bodies when they least expect it. Chi-Chi being slammed in the back of the head and being pushed away were failures for Baby when it comes to proving Goten is still Goten. Although Chi-Chi may not realize her son is being controlled it does raise some flags and alert her to something being up. The conversation with Baby Goten demanding to be told where Vegeta is was appropriately awkward, due to Baby’s anger towards the saiyans he struggles to remain calm, and at the same time it doesn’t help him conceal Goten’s everyday composure. Baby Goten’s screaming out of frustration when he isn’t told where Vegeta is can also be attributed to the bitterness he holds over what the saiyans did to his people.

Following another short fight between Gohan and Goten, Baby also manages to control the former, highlighting his growing dominance on Earth even though he was able to figure out something was different about his brother. Additionally since Gohan had a special bond with Piccolo his Kamehame Ha at Piccolo adds a sense of tragedy to Baby’s reign, and questions regarding his survival.

At this stage what Baby will do next, and whether Goku, Trunks and Pan manage to make it back to Earth in time is anyone’s guess.

Episode 27 - Ambition Achieved?! Vegeta is Taken Over

For the episode that has been built up to as the decisive moment when Baby confronts Vegeta there is some lightheartedness in it, although it helps to add more context to everything that will be at risk as Baby continues to dominate the Earth and its people.

Vegeta and Bra’s return from their shopping trip was nice to see, both in terms of how the saiyan prince handles having a daughter, and to see how settled he has become on Earth. The goofy Tokunaga does a great job at highlighting the simplicity of the father-daughter shopping trip and Vegeta’s embarrassment over shaving cream being one of the items they purchased. Vegeta driving a car made on Earth was also neat for the purpose of telling how much he has adapted to life on Earth, which ironically is far more than his rival Goku has. The scene with the young males trying to chat up Bra was rather unsettling though, given the face she was only a little girl. Vegeta seems aware of this and very willing to protect Bra though, given he bumped into the other car, tore off the steering wheel and sent the boys and their vehicle into the sea. It may have been harsh, but it shows how much Vegeta cares for his family.

Evidently there is still some unawareness of Baby’s growing dominance. Chi-Chi continues to be the loving mother, being the first to look after Goten, although with support from Bulma, Videl and Gohan. Videl was also unaware of Baby controlling Gohan when she notices her husband walking out, which shows that Baby is learning how to blend into life on Earth, adding a little bit of growth to his character. Goten’s sudden awakening may be seen as a source of relief for Chi-Chi, although his eyes turning red makes it harder for even the most naive to not even suspect mind control.

As with Goku, Trunks and Pan’s quest thus far the fact there will always be some obstacles to find the Dragon Balls remains, although funnily enough this time Goku has no one to blame but himself for not bringing a coat on such a freezing planet. Goku caught a cold and fell into a hole, but given he managed to secure the last black star Dragon Ball it was all worth it. The victorious Tokunaga track played as Goku, Trunks and Pan celebrate on their ship gives some reward to their quest, even if with Baby still around it is doomed to be short-lived.

The fight between Vegeta and Baby (currently inhabiting Gohan’s body) was unique given it was Dragon Ball’s first battle at night. While Vegeta also, like Piccolo earlier shows awareness of Baby’s threat it could be argued he senses the tsufurian’s power a little late given the fact he had to jam on his car breaks, causing Bra to hurt her head. Additionally, Vegeta was quick to realize both Gohan and Goten were being controlled, but for a character as experienced and from a civilization as advanced as the saiyans no less could realistically be expected. Regarding the disrupted return from shopping, Vegeta remains a caring and protective father as he escapes Baby’s initial blast managing to carry her down to safety. Its arguable that Vegeta flinging Bra backwards into the car could be considered a bit much, although the fact he allows someone so young to drive indicates that he is not exactly strict either, as long as she can be away from harm. Its possible that Bulma could have taught Bra to drive and earned both herself and Vegeta’s trust, which leaves little reason to expect recklessness on their part.

Vegeta and Baby’s fight, despite being newfound territory for Dragon Ball in terms of setting isn’t that well choreographed. The speaking moments between the two characters when Vegeta comes to realize who Baby’s race were was good, but the fight itself doesn’t offer anything special since it largely focuses on ki blasts, which are fired mid-air and spread in all directions. The one notable tactic in this fight was Baby grabbing Vegeta by the head, dragging it along the ground and later flinging him, which was rather brutal and shows the extent Baby will go to have his revenge. While Vegeta remains confident powering up and showing Baby what he’s up against the sly creature manages to find his way into the saiyans muscle, just as he did with Goten in their fight, though even then he isn’t fully controlled. The silence used during the panning shot of Goten and Gohan lying on the ground captures the horror caused by Baby, further amplified by the shot of Baby appearing on Vegeta’s face assuring the saiyan that he won’t be able to resist any longer.

Baby’s revelations about the tsufurian homeworld and culture, both of which were eliminated by the saiyans was a nice touch for adding some context to what he has endured, and also sets the stage for his plan to resurrect it.

With a wish in mind the threat of danger to the Earth lingers once again, as even Goku, Trunks and Pan’s long awaited return to the planet can no longer guarantee its safety.

Episode 28 - Goku Returns… All of Earth is my Enemy?!

For this episode its good to see some more focus on Goku, Trunks and Pan, especially given the fact that their return to Earth was not all as great as they may have hoped for.

Initially there is some necessary celebration for the gathering of all seven Dragon Balls. The peaceful Tokunaga track played as Goku and Pan see the Earth through the window of their ship, and prepare to land on the heavenly realm was good for giving our heroes a sense of accomplishment while it lasts. With some nice banter between Goku and Pan with the latter trying to get all the credit for being responsible for their success gathering the Dragon Balls was cute, although threatening Dende to be grateful was a little much, and shows Pan still has some growing up to do. Pan giving Giru a cape as a sign of gratitude was nice though, especially given how she treated the robot for many parts of their journey.

Goku and Pan’s return to the Son household has a very sombre feel. Not only are Goku and Pan not greeted, but they are given complete silence when Chi-Chi and Videl do nothing but wash dishes and serve food. Trunks is also surprised when he returns to Capsule Corp to find it has become a complete ghost town, although he finds his father at the top of the stairs and decides to follow him, although, as with Goku and Pan’s experience it wasn’t what he expected from seeing his family again. Trunks’ father who appears to be Vegeta makes no secret of the fact he is Baby however, as his hair turns white and he’s quick to attack Trunks, leading him to warn Giru who was hovering above to get away, only for him to be blasted by Baby.

Luckily Goku had the awareness to know when Goten and Gohan weren’t themselves, while he was initially delighted to see the former it was when the latter arrived and they both transformed he realized both were being controlled. Moreover, Pan shows care for Pan placing his hand on her forehead and ensuring her her father and uncle weren’t themselves.

The bond between Mr Satan and Majin Boo was also great for the comic relief, even if its largely because he is scared of Baby, and is taking advantage of his friend’s ability to sense ki. Mr Satan’s fear shows when he notices something unusual inside Boo’s body, and gets out as soon as he realizes he is a match for everyone around them. When Boo fails to sense Baby, Mr Satan emerges and punches through all the people who were outside their mansion, although they manage to stand back up. Mr Satan also realizes what has happened to Gohan and Goten and arrives with Boo to where Goku is in case he needs support.

As Vegeta arrives it becomes clear that the ultimate battle of the living saiyans, driven by the desire for a tsufruian to undo the damage their race has done is yet to begin.

Episode 29 - This is Super Awful?! Super Saiyan 3 is Defeated!!

An episode filled with tension and drama as Goku is forced to fight his own friends and family and struggle for his own safety as Baby is willing to stop at nothing to enact his revenge.

The lingering music at the beginning of the episode as Mr Satan and Majin Boo look up and Goku looks further at Baby and his inhabitants emphasizes the potential hopelessness of the situation should our hero lose this fight

Mr Satan shows some smarts revealing he saved the remaining Earthlings by having them absorbed inside Boo’s body, although the fact he runs away when Baby Vegeta launches a ki blast is very telling - that he is still the bumbling fool he’s always been. Suffice to say Mr Satan laughs as he escapes, particularly because himself and Pan can both take shelter in Boo’s body, as Baby is distracted by Goku. Specifically, Baby Vegeta stopping Gohan from blasting Boo and insisting that they fight Goku shows his commitment to first taking revenge on the saiyans.

Of course no one is as smart as Baby, not only did he manage to take control of almost all Goku’s friends and family, but in the story he tells he reveals that he planted an egg in Trunks’ body, which ensured that even with his best resistance he would eventually fall under the tsufruian’s control.

The fight between Goku and Baby Vegeta is more entertaining than the other battles in GT, which can be attributed to what’s at stake and it being old rivals. For instance Goku not being able to handle the immense power of super saiyan 3 was great conceptually for once again showing being turned into a kid was detrimental to his fighting ability. The scene where Goku is backed into a corner at the foot of the cliff, only allowing Baby Vegeta to launch an array of air smacks on him further elaborated on this extra vulnerability. In general Baby Vegeta has the upper edge throughout the battle dodging many of Goku’s attacks, blasting him to make him fall, leaving Goku with scratches all over his body, and smacking him down by hitting him on the head.

This sense of doom is alleviated briefly when the ever resillient Goku bites Baby Vegeta’s arm, although there’s no other humour in this episode, which is definitely not a weakness as this is not an episode that needs any wacky moments, although one is fine given its a staple move for Goku.

Baby Vegeta’s transformation, as he gathers energy from Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Bra was appropriately ominous and threatening. As red clouds emerge, lightning strikes and Baby Vegeta speaks the Earth gathering energy from its inhabitants under his control its clear that he is beginning to reach his peak in power, which culminates in the Revenge Death Ball he launches at Goku causing shocks all around the area where they fought.

Since Goku has only died two times in the entirety of the series leaving the episode with the possibility of him being killed once again adds to the seriousness of the battle he just lost, though whether he can quickly come back from it remains to be seen.

Episode 30 - Goku is Annihilated?! I’m Dead

Earth’s fate continuously hangs in the balance as Baby Vegeta receives the seven black star Dragon Balls, and Goku has another chance to live in what can be described as a traditional Dragon Ball adventure with a supernatural twist.

As Baby Vegeta summons the black star dragon the same Tokunaga track plays as the first time the dragon was called out, which is a rather nice touch of continuity, and brings with it an abrupt undoing of Goku, Trunks and Pan’s quest throughout the cosmos to gather them all. Pan witnessing the sight of the dragon adds to the magnitude of failure, and as she still has some growing up to do it is a great lesson not to get too excited, even if she believes she was the one who deserves the credit for gathering all the Dragon Balls. Nonetheless, as Pan breaks down in tears she carries with her an immense feeling of despair, a relatable trait for anyone that would have experienced what she did regardless of their age.

The ethereal sound of Tokunaga’s track played as the tsufurian planet is restored gives the impression that this is a planet that must have endured a lot, and despite being restored to its former state it leaves a lot of mystery. When it comes to all the conflict the saiyans and tsufurian may have had, the revival of the planet without those who were involved in the conflict means a lot is left to the imagination.

The game Goku plays is quite entertaining, particularly as its the one time where having more common sense and general knowledge would be to his benefit, which is refreshing as it means for once having great combat knowledge doesn’t help. Even powering up won’t work in the world Goku currently finds himself in. Initially the game seems easy, although Goku soon learns that Suguro is full of surprises. The quiz questions Goku has to answer, particularly as he sits on the riddle space become quite the obstacle given the hole continues to enlarge and there’s nothing but spikes at the bottom. Funnily enough Goku’s obsession with food saves him from certain death as he lands holding on to some spikes by his arms and others by his teeth. Interestingly similar powers to Majin Boo are found in this strange world, as Suguro manages to change the numbers on the dice. Goku also has to overcome an unlikely challenge, having to not cry, which is something he has consistently avoided doing in his life, although even he struggles when onions fall on him followed by a swarm of knifes. This was a funny scene, like something Toriyama would write and a nod to Goku’s lack of domestic skills.

There are some nice character moments for Goku’s friends and family, particularly Mr Satan, Boo, and the Kais. Mr Satan shows his kind, compassionate grandfatherly side as he comforts Pan reminding her that Trunks is being controlled. The scene with elder Kai finishing only for Kibitoshin to fall into the lake, frustrating him was funny too, but the latter’s revelation that he saved Goku only to fail to hold on to him was nice as it shows him doing his job as a god by taking responsibility for someone of his universe, albeit one that is a friend, and its the second time he has saved Goku from being destroyed.

Nevertheless, even if Goku manages to find his way back to the living world, with Baby Vegeta’s ship that he will bring to the tsufurian planet marks the beginning of a new chapter in this saga, and one that will lead to our heroes greatest battle to date.
Do you have any info about international non-English broadcasts about the Dragon Ball anime or manga translations/editions? Please message me. Researching for a future book with Dragon Ball scholar Derek Padula :thumbup:

Check out my blogs https://dragonballireland.wordpress.com/ and https://dragonballinternational.wordpress.com/

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