Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 114 - GT 59-63

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 114 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

The Evil Dragons arc ends, but GT isn't over just yet...

Previous thread: Week 113 (GT 54-58)
Next thread: Week 115 (GT 64, Path to Power)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 503 - Friend or Foe… Oozaru Vegeta’s Great Rampage (GT episode 59)
Ocean dub title: Vegeta Goes on a Rampage!
Funimation dub title: Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta
Originally aired 17th of September 1997
Scenario by: Shinobu Ōito
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Tadayoshi Yamamuro

Vegeta shows off his giant golden monkey... form.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• This is the final Yamamuro episode of the original run of Dragon Ball. He would return as the animation supervisor of Battle of Gods in 2013, and would continue in this capacity in the following film and many episodes of the Super series, as well as serving as the character designer for Super as a whole.
• The first Dragon Ball we see found in the TV anime is the One-Star Ball (which Pilaf finds in DB episode 1, though we don't see its stars until later on). The final villain fought in GT is the One-Star Dragon.
  • The first Dragon Ball Goku and Bulma find in the 10th anniversary movie is also the One-Star Ball.
• Goku is frozen a FOURTH time in GT.
• Weirdly, Vegeta as an Oozaru is brown for a while, then only goes golden when he's gained control of his mind again, and only after that does he go Super Saiyan 4.
• Just as Goku kept his yellow trousers and blue sash when he went Super Saiyan 4, Vegeta kept his black leather trousers and belt, giving him a pretty different look as a Super Saiyan 4.

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Episode 504 - Fusion!! The Ultimate Super Gogeta (GT episode 60)
Ocean dub title: Super Gogeta! Goku and Vegeta Become One!
Funimation dub title: Super Saiyan 4 Fusion
Originally aired 22nd of October 1997
Scenario by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Yūji Hakamada

A fan-favourite character returns and increases his total screentime sevenfold... to about 15 minutes total.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• Bulma's strategy of firing Bruits Waves at the One-Star Dragon seems suspect at best, since those waves seem to have no effect on non-Saiyans, and on Saiyans it gives a positive effect.
• This marks the second ever animated appearance of Gogeta, the first being in Z movie 12. He would appear for a third time in Dragon Ball Super: Broly.
• As with Vegetto, the Japanese and Funimation dubbed versions had the voices of Goku and Vegeta record the same lines and overlay them to voice Gogeta, while the Ocean dub had one actor voice the character.
• As in DBZ movie 12, Gogeta has a sparkly, shiny aura.
• This episode shows that Dragon World has a statue of liberty, implying that Dragon World also has a New York and a France.

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Episode 505 - I Will Win!! Goku Swallows the Four-Star Ball (GT episode 61)
Ocean dub title: Goku Swallows the Four-Starred Dragon Ball!
Funimation dub title: The Limits of Power
Originally aired 29th of October 1997
Scenario by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Jun’ichi Fujise
Animation supervisor: Kōzō Morishita

Goku and Vegeta fail to fuse for longer than Gogeta's total screentime across Z movie 12 and GT episode 60.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• Remember, kids, do not try to swallow large, magical glass orbs. They're not good for you!
• This episode's Ocean dub may feature the first English dub usage of the term "Scumbag" on TV in Dragon Ball. Chris Sabat explained in an interview with Geekdom101 that Funimation wasn't allowed to use the term because the censors claimed the term refers to a used condom and therefore isn't safe for TV.
  • Going through every edited episode of DBZ's Saban, early Funimation, and Westwood dubs, as well as both TV versions of the GT dub (the Funimation one not actually being possible to get ahold of nowadays) is not feasible enough for either KBABZ or Robo to do to research this entry, but Robo contests that even if this isn't the very first usage of this word, this is still relevant trivia. So, basically,
• After the eyecatch in this episode, Old Kaioshin is listening to the instrumental of the TV-size version of Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku. Toei seems to have lost this instrumental in its high-quality form at some point in the past 20 years, since while Ocean received this instrumental to lay vocals over for their OP, Funimation had to record their own when they recorded their cover for the Season DVDs. A very low-quality version was included with a textless OP/ED bonus feature on one of the DVD releases of GT, but it sounds like it may have been sourced from an optical film soundtrack. (Here is an attempt someone made to make the best of that poor-quality instrumental and combine it with the Funimation cover's vocals, for anyone curious)
• The fact the afterimage technique fooled Yi Xing Long suggests he can't clearly track Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta by their Ki. Either he can't sense it precisely enough to locate them, or they're able to disguise it, or they're moving too fast for him to track, or perhaps they're just so low on energy he wasn't able to sense them.

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Episode 506 - Rescue Goku! The Final Ally Appears (GT episode 62)
Ocean dub title: Rescue Goku! The Last Ally Appears.
Funimation dub title: Rescue Goku
Originally aired 5th of November 1997
Scenario by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

The final fucking Uchiyama episode, thank christ. (It's actually a rather good episode, though!)

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• In a way, you could say Goku's purification of the Four-Star Dragon was set up by Gogeta inverting the power ball into positive energy.
• The One-Star Dragon jumping into the Four-Star Dragon's body may be him using the Seven-Star Dragon's body-jacking technique.
• You could say that the Four-Star Dragon telling the One-Star Dragon his body would survive the explosion is the exact moment that the fight with the One-Star Dragon became a loss for the Dragon Team.

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Episode 507 - The Miraculous Turnaround Victory!! Goku Saves the Galaxy (GT episode 63)
Ocean dub title: Goku Saves the Universe!
Funimation dub title: Universal Allies
Originally aired 12th of November 1997
Scenario by: Atsushi Maekawa
Episode director: Hidehiko Kadota
Animation supervisor: Kazuya Hisada

No joke here, this is just a really damn good episode of Dragon Ball. Possibly GT's best, if it wasn't for the very next one.

Trivia:

Spoiler:

• According to one interpretation, Yi Xing Long's power ball killed Goku, meaning he died trying to save the earth, after saving Vegeta's life one last time.
• The destruction of the king's palace is probably a nod to when the same thing happened in the Piccolo arc; shortly after, we see a city explosion that's somewhat similar to the mushroomcloud explosion that Piccolo caused in the same arc.
• Donors to the Genki-Dama are Namekians, the Para-Para Brothers, the people of Imegga, the giant whose tooth had a Dragon Ball stuck in it, the village that was terrorised by Zunama, Zunama himself, the hospital staff and kid who was found in space on that wrecked ship both of whom Baby had possessed, and Pan mentions the worshippers of Lord Lood (possibly they're the ones the Para-Para Brothers were coaching).
  • The Namekians are the only donors shown in the montage who had donated to a previous one, being the one used on Boo. All of the donors in said montage all come from space, to contrast the Boo Genki-Dama gathering its energy from Earth.
  • As well, both these Genki-Dama show that there isn't a limit on how far away somebody has to be in order to donate to one.
• It's unusual that Goku is able to take all of Yi Xing Long's attacks while holding up the Genki-Dama; a big deal is made in the Namek Arc of Goku struggling to hold the Genki-Dama together while being attacked like that. This is one of the many hints at something mysterious going on with Goku.
• Another is the fact Shen Long wasn't summoned by anyone. While one could argue that he's appearing because the current calamaty involves him, this sort of independance has not been previously displayed by the Dragon Gods.
• Goku notes in the preview at the end of this episode that the next one is the final episode of GT. A sizeable portion of the footage in this preview is actually from flashbacks in that episode, rather than new events.

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____

Trivia written by Robo and KBABZ. Episode airdates and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide.

[WittyUsername]

I’m pretty sure the idea in episode 63 is that Goku is indeed killed by Yi Xi Long, but that through some sort of divine intervention from Shenlong, Goku’s spirit is able to live on long enough to destroy him for good. The final episode pretty heavily leans towards this interpretation, without stating it outright.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Watching these episodes as a kid it never occurred to me that Goku died in the final fight against Yi Xing Long only to gain some sort of last chance, but if that is what happened I think it is kinda neat as it makes his sacrifice that much more noble. Not in the sense of Goku being Superman, but in him doing what he feels is right, which is what he has always done for better or for worse. I do like that it's left ambiguous though, it's yet another reason no one can say GT wasn't experimental.

[Robo4900]

I’m pretty sure the idea in episode 63 is that Goku is indeed killed by Yi Xi Long, but that through some sort of divine intervention from Shenlong, Goku’s spirit is able to live on long enough to destroy him for good. The final episode pretty heavily leans towards this interpretation, without stating it outright.

Yeah.

I think this is probably the interpretation closest to the artists' intention; or if not, it seems to be the clearest read on what happened. It's a very cool way to end Dragon Ball.

Watching this fight as a kid it never ocurred to me that Goku died in the final fight against Yi Xing Long only to gain some sort of last chance, but if that is what happened I think it is kinda neat as it makes his sacrifice that much more noble. Not in the sense of Goku being Superman, but in him doing what he feels is right, which is what he has always done for better or for worse. I do like that it's left ambiguous though, it's yet another reason no one can say GT wasn't experimental.

Indeed.

GT did a lot of odd and interesting things, and I wish it had lasted a lot longer, but it is what it is. And what it is, is IMO the best (and most interesting) of the post-manga Dragon Ball content, though granted that isn't a Super high bar to clear.
Comparisons to other works aside, it's a fun ride, and I really like how dark and desperate episode 63 becomes. It feels like Dragon Ball's darkest hour; the Dragon Team LOSE. They lose HARD. They only get to win in the end because of, basically, divine intervention, which comes at a heavy price.

Man, I love these final episodes.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I've seen it for a long time as Toei's writers were setting this up ambiguously, as it's not suppose to be clear what goes on with Goku here and in ep 64. He didn't explicitly die as seen all other previous times he'd done so like back in DBZ eps 5 and 188 (plus if Trunks's future dystopian timeline where he didn't survive the heart virus is counted) so my thinking is that something mysterious happened and Goku was given some kind of otherworldly/ethereal power bestowed unto him by Shen Long and ascended to some unknown higher state of existence beyond comprehension. A sort of middle ground between living and dead so to speak, and as to him flying off with the dragon maybe that also had to do with it. I'm not making a definitive call on that, though it's possible that the writers could've also hinted at that too but not outright said it to be so. It's open to interpretation, and there's been debate on this ever since these eps first aired back in 1997.

Also we see him absorb the Dragon Balls as he's laying on the dragon, so maybe he became some living vessel for them and perhaps this gave him that unusual state of being.

[Koitsukai]

I was really put off by Gogeta's personality in GT. I was expecting a more serious Gogeta like against Janemba, or at least a more balanced playful-serious thing like Vegito. I could never enjoy Toei's in-battle comedy style. I was always a fan of Vegito being more playful and Gogeta more serious, even if the context was the cause.

I didn't buy the excuse for not going all out, and ending up wasting the fusion, either. But it's still entertaining and cool to see Gogeta again, I just didn't enjoy his personality.

Don't have much to say about what transpired after the fusion, although the guys trying to fuse among buildings was pretty neat,
and while Uchiyama's last episode wasn't that bad, I still don't see what MyVisionity sees in that art style. I still cannot enjoy those episodes, specially with this muscular dragon with legs that make him look like a fat grandma wearing a dress.
Suu Shinron setting Omega up was really good, if he just didn't pull a DBS Goku on Omega by telling him everything, he would've killed him. But can't hold that against him, it was nice to see Omega freak out a bit.
Also, how Omega comes out of his body is so raw.

Episode 63 is amazing, the fight is lost, the sky is dark, people are panicking, there's a Namek vibe from when they were getting everybody out of the planet. Best part for me is when Vegeta tells Trunks and the Son kids what to do: to escape, survive, train and avenge them. You are Kakarotto no muzuko I think he also tells them.
While nobody ever came out and said yes, Goku died bla bla, I don't think there's any other interpretation possible. If that didn't happen, any other scenario doesn't make much sense to me. Goku's never been that durable.

In Broly's second coming, the DBs are summoned automatically too by Goten-ish, without Shenron ever showing up. Although, totally different context.

[MyVisionity]

Wonder why they excluded Bra completely?

These episodes are very silly. But I guess that's what GT does best, alternating between the serious and silly. I get the feeling however that they were really stalling for time until they reached the final episode. Things just kept going around in circles until episode 63 rolled around, and then they were like ok yeah let's wrap this shit up now.

How many different times did the gang get blown away by 1-Star's attacks? I liked how he even attacked Satan with that kick to the gut lol.

Episode 63 is appropriately dark and moving. I like what they did with Vegeta. He's really the MVP of GT, and got all the best writing.

For some interesting thoughts on what happened to Goku in the end, including comments from production, check out the Dragon Ball GT Ending Analysis page on the Kanzenshuu website: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/drag ... -analysis/

[MasenkoHA]

though granted that isn't a Super high bar to clear.

I see what you did there

[Lukmendes]

I can only wonder what the hell is up with Goku when he uses that Spirit Bomb, he's tanking all of Omega's attacks without even flinching.

I think he's being helped by Shenlong somehow, the episode shows Omega covering the Earth in negative energy again, only for Spirit Bomb to clear it all up while it's being formed, not after Omega is killed like it happened with the other dragons.

I think maybe by clearing up the negative energy, that makes it easier for Shenlong to help Goku further, might even be how Goku is tanking everything that much, or maybe the Spirit Bomb, by managing to clear up the negative energy surrounding the Earth that easily, could also be weakening all of Omega's attacks as they approache, though I doubt that's the case, since it doesn't look like they attacks are becoming weaker as they get closer, and Omega seeing Goku tanking all of those attacks is as baffled as anyone would be, and when Pan sees Goku, she says "Grandpa, you're like a god", this could be just a random commentary, but it could also be a hint of what's going on.

As the Kazenshuu analysis posted above points out, there seems to be an understanding between Goku and Shenlong in the next episode, as if they talked before and made a deal, Goku is even suddenly aware that the dragon balls are the reason why the doors between Hell and Earth were suddenly opened (As far as I remember, the only hint of this was during Super 17 saga itself, where the characters wonder how that's happening, and we get a shot of a cracked dragon ball), Vegeta, Krillin, Roshi and Piccolo all ask "Goku, are you...?", and Roshi is somehow aware that Shenlong is leaving Earth with Goku, before all of this, the characters point out the oddity that Shenlong was summoned without being asked, and how the skies didn't darken when he was summoned, not to mention how he granted a wish without being asked... Yeah, the only thing I can say is that Shenlong might've helped out Goku in some way, but what he did, or could even do, I don't know, and Goku might not be exactly alive afterwards.

Overall, it's weird and honestly can feel like an asspull, it's one of those story moments that's carried more by the emotion of it, and/or sense of wonder, than logic, because logically it can be hard to imagine how exactly Shenlong could be helping out Goku at any point or have talked to him at all, since right before Omega had all of the dragon balls, even if Goku is dead when he's using Spirit Bomb, that doesn't explain why he's not being killed again, and if he died when he fell, but Shenlong resurrected him once more, then the question is "How?", since Omega had all of the dragon balls, this lack of explanations can look pretty annoying if one doesn't care about random mysticism.

[Koitsukai]

Overall, it's weird and honestly can feel like an asspull, it's one of those story moments that's carried more by the emotion of it, and/or sense of wonder, than logic, because logically it can be hard to imagine how exactly Shenlong could be helping out Goku at any point or have talked to him at all, since right before Omega had all of the dragon balls, even if Goku is dead when he's using Spirit Bomb, that doesn't explain why he's not being killed again, and if he died when he fell, but Shenlong resurrected him once more, then the question is "How?", since Omega had all of the dragon balls, this lack of explanations can look pretty annoying if one doesn't care about random mysticism.

Having eaten the 4-star dragon ball might've played a part. Although, IIRC, that's when they "planned" the set up to get Omega inside that fire attack. But whatever deal was made between Goku and Shenron could've only happened when he had one of the DBs inside of him, and also after that cleansed DB came back to the main dragon.
While it's understood that Suu Shinron died and all, maybe Goku's influence over the 4-star DB remained long enough to get this wish granted.

Maybe it was their back up plan, in case Suu Shinron's ultimate attack failed.

[Lukmendes]

Having eaten the 4-star dragon ball might've played a part. Although, IIRC, that's when they "planned" the set up to get Omega inside that fire attack. But whatever deal was made between Goku and Shenron could've only happened when he had one of the DBs inside of him, and also after that cleansed DB came back to the main dragon.
While it's understood that Suu Shinron died and all, maybe Goku's influence over the 4-star DB remained long enough to get this wish granted.

Maybe it was their back up plan, in case Suu Shinron's ultimate attack failed.

I think Goku and Nova just planned to work together but not the exact details, Nova used an attack that Goku thought was going to kill him if his reaction is any hint, and the four star dragon ball being inside of Goku is what connected him with Shenlong is a possibility, and wouldn't make the events before it so, pointless.

A problem I have with the final battle is how after Omega gets all the dragon balls, the random shit that happens don't actually move the battle forward, Vegeta turns SS4, but he does nothing and is just fusion fodder, Gogeta shows up, and for absolutely no reason he decides to manipulate Omega to remove the negative energy surrounding the Earth, when just killing him would do the same thing, Omega loses most dragon balls, gets most of them back but can't get Nova, then Nova does an attack that could kill Omega, but he suddenly becomes an idiot and lets Omega go, which leads to Nova losing, so now Omega has all his powers back anyways, and then he just surrounds Earth with negative energy again, making Gogeta even more pointless.

Basically all of those events amounted to nothing, since in the end Omega gets all of his powers back and everyone is outclassed again, compare this with Super Boo, Gotenks was used to make Boo strong enough to defeat Gohan, then Gohan was used to make Super Boo so overpowered for Goku and Vegeta to fuse, and then Vegetto is absorbed and Goku and Vegeta free everyone else, and that leads to Fat Boo being freed, which essentially kills Super Boo and brings back the "original" Kid Boo, who acts very differently compared to the others, and that also leads to Earth being destroyed, and Fat Boo being spat out.

With Super Boo, one event led to another, and that led to another, it felt like a story that keeps progressing, while Omega just made everything return to "point A".

However, your theory changes everything, and it gives actual progression, because while Vegeta is still just fusion fodder, Gogeta has an use, since making Omega lose most of his dragon balls led to Goku eating the four star dragon ball, and if that established a connection between Goku and Shenlong, and if Shenlong is what helped out Goku during the Spirit Bomb, and that is what led to Goku making that deal with Shenlong, then there was actual progression there, so yeah, I like that, it improves the story progression in the final episodes by a lot, even if there are still issues here and there lol.

[Robo4900]

though granted that isn't a Super high bar to clear.

I see what you did there

I hoped someone would.

Overall, it's weird and honestly can feel like an asspull, it's one of those story moments that's carried more by the emotion of it, and/or sense of wonder, than logic, because logically it can be hard to imagine how exactly Shenlong could be helping out Goku at any point or have talked to him at all, since right before Omega had all of the dragon balls, even if Goku is dead when he's using Spirit Bomb, that doesn't explain why he's not being killed again, and if he died when he fell, but Shenlong resurrected him once more, then the question is "How?", since Omega had all of the dragon balls, this lack of explanations can look pretty annoying if one doesn't care about random mysticism.

My personal theory is Shen Long and Goku had a chat inside Goku's head while he was dying in that ditch, and made a deal of some sort.

That aside, it's worth noting that there's an old writers' trick that, as long as a story emotionally works, people will forgive the logic not really working out. The Cell Games makes no sense logically, from any angle really, but it emotionally WORKS, so you just don't give a shit.

[MyVisionity]

How does the Cell Games not make sense logically?

As for the GT ending, I don't think that it's a case of the logic not working so much as it's that the logic is vague or missing pieces. It's ambiguous, and intentionally so. I think that the cryptic nature of the ending actually serves to amplify the emotional aspect of story.

[Robo4900]

How does the Cell Games not make sense logically?

So, Cell decides to hold a tournament rather than just kill everyone. Why? Well, that's his character at this point; he's a showman, he wants spectacle, he wants the whole world to know that he's won and they've lost and they're doomed. Okay... so why does Cell immediately just fight Goku? That's the grand finale as far as he's concerned, that's how the story he's telling ends. Why does he do that? If he was happy to do that, he should have just told Goku they'll fight in X days and not bothered inviting anyone else. As I recall, Goku is the one who steps up to fight first, but Cell is in charge here, he has no reason not to say "No, you fight me last. First I'm going to demoralise you and kill everyone else."

Goku gives up, Gohan steps in. Why does Cell humour this turn? He's trying to prove he's the biggest shit in the world, why does he let Goku take charge at this point and completely subvert the entire tournament (though Cell already subverted it anyway by fighting Goku immediately).

Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 when he sees Cell kill someone he met a week ago, who at first seemed to be a big bad villain and was working with people trying to kill his dad.
Gohan is the smartest member of the Dragon Team, arguably, and yet he's totally stupid in his strategy when fighting Cell, he does the old thing of not finishing Cell off, when even GOKU is saying to just finish him.
Goku teleports Cell to Kaio's planet to let him die harmlessly, and then Goku doesn't just teleport back immediately to save himself, Kaio, Bubbles, and Gregory (because he's fucking fast and could absolutely do that in the time it takes him to say "okay, I guess I'm doing this," teleport to Cell, say goodbye to everyone, teleport away, say hi to Kaio, apologise for choosing here, and have a little argument about it).

How does Cell suddenly learn to teleport? Why does Goku appear briefly next to Gohan during the beam struggle? Why is that Kamehameha enough to destroy every atom of Cell's being, but Cell detonating himself wasn't enough? How does Piccolo's ability to regrow an arm turn into Cell being able to regenerate his entire body if even a tiny part of it remains? Why is everyone so okay with the idea of Goku deciding "Y'know what, Freeza coming to earth and Dr. Gero wanting revenge are my fault, so how about I stay dead?" Gohan is losing his father, Chichi is losing her husband, and realistically those consequences for Goku being around are consequences for whatever person would have stopped the awful things Freeza and Red Ribbon were doing; Goku deciding to stay dead because of these things coming back to bite him is ridiculous, is he saying he regrets doing the things that inspired Freeza and Dr. Gero's revenge? Of course not, the Red Ribbon Army and Freeza were terrible, and what he did to them was correct, and it's a good thing he was still around when they decided to try to take revenge on him.

Logically, these things don't make sense. But you accept them, because the story works emotionally. They're plotholes, the kinds of things CinemaSins parades around as criticism; it's fun to poke these holes, but the story isn't bad because of these logical holes, the story just works.

[Koitsukai]

How does the Cell Games not make sense logically?

snip so we don't clog this

He fights Goku because he wants to show off against the strongest, which is Goku, and show that to the world as well, that’s why he gets a worldwide audience and invites everyone, so they can see he is stronger than the strongest. He's been waiting for Goku for a long time, too, why fight weakass Trunks again?
He doesn’t care that much about going all Freeza on them, he is beyond that, he is in love with himself, he is more than enough to demoralise them, he doesn’t need anything else, his power suffices.

True, Gohan has no story with Cell, but that is besides the point, it's not about Cell, it's about Gohan, who is drunk with power, that is, now, his character trait and will happen again against Super Buu. The power makes him feel in control of everything, so why get this over with so soon? He enjoys trashing him, the power went up his head, he's playing with him. That’s why he is not doing the most obvious thing.
And 16 "dying" isn't the reason why he went SS2, that's the trigger, the straw that broke the camel, the reason goes beyond just one android. He knew he had the power, he knew he didn't want to go there, and his friends were being tortured because of his inaction, those are the reasons.

Cell regenerating himself after his head blew up, learning shunkanido out of the blue, yeah makes no sense.

Goku’s image next to Gohan is for us, the audience, nobody else can see him, and Gohan can only hear him in his heart.

And SS2 Gohan’s Super KHH, should be much more powerful than whatever 2nd form Cell could output even when self-exploding, so I don’t see a problem there. Cell was pretty close to dying before, so the KHH being a little more powerful than the previous explosion should be enough.

I also don’t see a problem in Goku deciding he’s had enough after being the reason the saiyans came to Earth, why Freeza came to Earth and why all these androids were created. He died for the second time, also, he got his second chance a long time ago and it just ended. I don’t see a logical problem here, there’s somebody even stronger than himself to take care of those kind of threats that were actually after him to begin with. It's not outta the blue either, Bulma hinted at that earlier on.

I can see people not liking all these stuff, but it does make sense.

[WittyUsername]

Goku’s reasoning for staying dead in the Cell saga is definitely faulty. The world would be safer without him? He’s the one who stopped bad guys like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao. Those people were doing bad things regardless of Goku’s existence. You can’t argue that it’s his fault that Dr. Gero wanted revenge on him, because Gero hated Goku specifically for thwarting the Red Ribbon Army’s evil plans. It’s also ridiculous to blame him for Freeza coming to Earth for this exact reason.

If there’s anything you can blame Goku for, it’s for not listening to Bulma’s proposal of using the Dragon Balls to find Dr. Gero, but even then, he wasn’t the only person guilty of that.

[MyVisionity]

The Cell Saga logic may be flimsy at times, but it is always there. They make sure to provide logical explanations for *everything* that happens during that arc.

Goku’s reasoning for staying dead in the Cell saga is definitely faulty. The world would be safer without him? He’s the one who stopped bad guys like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao. Those people were doing bad things regardless of Goku’s existence. You can’t argue that it’s his fault that Dr. Gero wanted revenge on him, because Gero hated Goku specifically for thwarting the Red Ribbon Army’s evil plans. It’s also ridiculous to blame him for Freeza coming to Earth for this exact reason.

He was talking about the Z-villains, not Daimao or RRA. The Saiyans, Freeza, and Androids/Cell were all because of Goku. Regardless of their reasons.

[WittyUsername]

He was talking about the Z-villains, not Daimao or RRA. The Saiyans, Freeza, and Androids/Cell were all because of Goku. Regardless of their reasons.

Goku doesn’t have a distinction between Z-villains and pre-Z villains. Blaming him for the artificial humans existing doesn’t make any sense, unless the idea is that it was wrong of him to stop the RRA in the first place.

[Xeogran]

The Saiyans, Freeza, and Androids/Cell were all because of Goku. Regardless of their reasons.

To be honest because of Goku these all have been successfully stopped.

Imagine if Raditz didn't come to Earth, the Saiyans would still continue conquering planets, same with Frieza's army. Who knows maybe they'd stumble upon Earth one day and then nobody would be able to stop them.

[MyVisionity]

Blaming him for the artificial humans existing doesn’t make any sense, unless the idea is that it was wrong of him to stop the RRA in the first place.

It does make sense, because the only reason they exist in the first place is due to Goku. It doesn't really matter what Goku's intentions were. Right or wrong, his actions are what led to Gero creating the Androids.

The world would be safer without him? He’s the one who stopped bad guys like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao. Those people were doing bad things regardless of Goku’s existence.

They would be doing bad things without Goku, yes, but *with* Goku they end up doing even worse things. Because of Goku, the RRA led to Gero and Cell. Because of Goku, Piccolo Daimao led to Ma Junior. And so on. The point is that Goku just attracts bad guys. His pure heart and unique abilities are what makes him a target and puts the Earth into jeopardy time and time again.

The Saiyans, Freeza, and Androids/Cell were all because of Goku. Regardless of their reasons.

To be honest because of Goku these all have been successfully stopped.

Imagine if Raditz didn't come to Earth, the Saiyans would still continue conquering planets, same with Frieza's army. Who knows maybe they'd stumble upon Earth one day and then nobody would be able to stop them.

It's really a double-edged sword with Goku. His strength and character are what allows him to overcome his enemies and defeat evil, but it's also what draws in villains in the first place.