The Cell Game

[Mr.Piccolo]

I have a few generic, fanboy questions to confirm my knowledge on the Cell Game(s). My first question deals with the strength of the warriors. Now I know a lot of people don’t like discussing power levels, but *how exactly does Goku’s full-power SSj form work? *Wasn't the theme of using RoSaT was to surpass/ascend the SSj? Goku demonstrates these levels to Gohan in the room however, the emerge from the room as SSjs. Now, this is what confuses me (among other things): *Are Goku and Gohan at the strength of SSjs in this relaxed form or are they just suppressing their massive amounts of power? But wait, there’s more (I won’t get into the Korin powerup scene…just yet)!

Goku finally fights Cell and it becomes obvious that he cannot win; Goku claims to have been fighting all out where Cell wasn’t even using his full power. Goku forfeits and calls Gohan to take his place. Not only that, he gives Cell a senzu (ZOMG). *Does Cell get much of a power boost after this? He wasn’t near death or anything but Goku noted that he used up energy regenerating from Goku’s kamehameha. This brings us to Gohan fighting, he powers up and everyone is shocked at his power except Goku. *Was this the level of power that Goku was expecting or was he expecting SSj2 power all along? It was clear that Gohan had surpassed Goku, but was Goku expecting that (SSj2)? Anyway, Cell destroys No.16’s body, takes the senzu(Krillin holds it.. good idea), and unleashes the Cell Jrs. *How strong were the Cell Jrs.? *Better yet, how strong were Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo? *Did their time in RoSaT do them any good? *Was the USSj form still being used?

My last set of questions are fairly simple ones:* 1) Gohan.Goku.No.16. Were they the only warriors who didn’t take a senzu (*Could No.16 even take a senzu)? *2) If Goku was to eat a senzu, would it make a difference? *3) Last but not least, do you think Goku really fought Cell first to show Gohan how Cell fights? I like to see it as Goku being Goku and wanting a good match. Then again, I believe Goku allowed Vegeta to use the room first only because he wanted to see what kind of results would come up..and stuff..

*Wow..this came out weird..uh, I'll leave a note where the questions actually are..This was looked a bit out of place to be in the questions section as well.. ^.^'
-Rick

[Kendamu]

When Goku initially surpassed the Super Saiyan form he went into that whatever-you-are-supposed-to-call-it-SSj form that Trunks had so much trouble fighting Cell with. Goku realized when he achieved that form that even though it's a lot stronger it'll slow him down too much and deemed it useless. So, he changed his focus to making the Super Saiyan feel natural to himself and Gohan. By doing this, the stresses of being in that transformed state no longer really effect them.

I'm not sure about your other questions, though.

[MajinVejitaXV]

how exactly does Goku’s full-power SSj form work?

After reaching the "USSJ" levels, Goku notes their detrimental effects. He makes it his goal to overcome these problems by making SSJ their base state (i.e., become so used to SSJ that the usual drain that it takes to maintain becomes non-existant). I dunno if it's said exactly in the manga or anime, but I believe the whole point was to take that surplus of energy that wasn't being used just to maintain the level and use it in more beneficial ways.

Wasn't the theme of using RoSaT was to surpass/ascend the SSj? Goku demonstrates these levels to Gohan in the room however, the emerge from the room as SSjs. Now, this is what confuses me (among other things)

Already addressed, but yes. Goku realized the form Vejita and Trunks were used was flawed, and took a different approach. Making SSJ one's base would probably take a long time (months), and the RoSaT made it possible to achieve it in a day.

Are Goku and Gohan at the strength of SSjs in this relaxed form or are they just suppressing their massive amounts of power?

Supressing, but not actively (in other words, it can be called up at any point without a massive effort), I believe. This is just speculation though.

Does Cell get much of a power boost after this?

I don't think so, but we're never really told one way or the other.

Was this the level of power that Goku was expecting or was he expecting SSj2 power all along?

The anime makes it blatant that Goku was expecting SSJ2, but I don't think the manga suggests that Goku expects anything specifically save for the expected "Gohan under emotional distress = shit-ton of power" reaction.

How strong were the Cell Jrs.?

Am I remembering things wrong, or did Cell actually say each was as powerful as him? Or was that anime filler? Either way, I'd say pretty strong, since Trunks and Vejita were outmatched despite being able to bury Form 2 Cell.

Better yet, how strong were Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo?

We can only speculate. My real problem is that Vejita and Trunks acknowledge the "Full Power SSJ" form, but don't attempt it themselves.

Did their time in RoSaT do them any good?

Good? Yes. Good enough? No. Then again, it's manga/anime logic. Goku and Gohan are the heroes, hence only they can be powerful enough to save the day

1) Gohan.Goku.No.16. Were they the only warriors who didn’t take a senzu (*Could No.16 even take a senzu)?

Didn't Goku get one after the Cell Jr. attack, or am I remembering wrong? And no, I don't think they'd help No. 16 since he's fully mechnical.

2) If Goku was to eat a senzu, would it make a difference?

No. At this point I think Zenkai powerups would have little if any impact, assuming they could even get them anymore.

3) Last but not least, do you think Goku really fought Cell first to show Gohan how Cell fights?

It's possible. I think his love of fighting wouldn't let him just sit on the sidelines the whole time, and once he had his fun it was time to call in the real hero: Gohan.

Was the USSj form still being used?

I'm pretty sure Vejita and Trunks were using some form of augmented SSJ. Speculation though.

-Corey

[Milton]

My first question deals with the strength of the warriors. Now I know a lot of people don’t like discussing power levels, but *how exactly does Goku’s full-power SSj form work? *Wasn't the theme of using RoSaT was to surpass/ascend the SSj? Goku demonstrates these levels to Gohan in the room however, the emerge from the room as SSjs. Now, this is what confuses me (among other things): *Are Goku and Gohan at the strength of SSjs in this relaxed form or are they just suppressing their massive amounts of power?

I've always interpreted their training as a type of resistance training. Goku knew that turning SSJ required an increase in emotional stability (in this case, pure rage), and what I think he was trying to do with this training was to make it so that he didn't need to be full of rage. He essentially made it that so being a SSJ didn't mean you have to be angry. While I don't know if Goku was suppressing a massive amount of power, I'd be willing to bet that Gohan was...call me crazy.

As far as how strong they are in this state, I don't think it has anything to do with "strength" as much as "stamina." Rage tends to take a lot out of people, putting a certain amount of strain on someone.

[MisterFlashdude]

I'll start at the beginning with the purpose of Goku and Gohan's time in the room of space and time. Yes, Goku had entered with the intent to surpass SSJ. He first comes to where Trunks leaves off, what is usually refered to as USSJ. He then comes to the same point Vegeta managed to come to. (Realizing that USSJ's bulk was more of a hinderance than an advantage.)

But Goku goes beyond Vegeta's conclusions. He decides that the best course of action now is to improve on the basic Super Saiya-jin form. If memory serves, he says he wanted to reach a point where he could be rid of the 'anxious' feeling in the form, so he could fight more smoothly. When he comes out of the room, Vegeta is in awe, remarking to himself how calm Goku seems in a form that, at one point, as all about rage and loss of control.

Now, what did Goku expect from Gohan... is summed up in one of my favorite moments. When Goku confronts Gohan after the match, Gohan was genuinely confused. He assumed that neither Goku or Cell had been fighting at full strength because it just didn't seem that great to him. You can assume that while Goku and Gohan were training in the room, Goku might have actually been pushed to giving Gohan 100%. Gohan would never realize this though, never thinking he could match his dad and Goku doesn't point this out to him.
As we come to the match, Goku knows Gohan had come up to his level almost effortlessly in a most naive way and knows that he still has that special ability of his tap into massive amounts of power when he's under a lot of stress. Goku isn't shocked that Gohan's super saiya-jin powers are so great... he already figured this in their training. I do believe he was still shocked at the sheer increase after SSJ2, as he looks equally shocked with everyone else after his transformation.

The Cell Juniors... were strong enough to give everyone competition. Even Goku seemed to be taking a bit of a beating... so they're probably at the same level as Cell is. Gohan still dispatches each with no effort afterwards, and only leaves Cell himself alive out of bloodlust.
I do believe their time in the room made a difference... but that difference is dwarfed compared to Cell and Gohan.
And no, Goku and Vegeta already knew that USSJ wasn't a good idea, and Trunks had learned that lesson the hard way by now. The form had it's moment and failed.
As for why Goku fought Cell first... he might've wanted to show Gohan his moves, but more than that Goku had to show Gohan his power and literally show Gohan that he had been seeing was his father's best. Had Gohan gone first, he probably would've been nervous and assumed he couldn't match up to Cell or do a good a job as his dad. But because Goku demonstrated that he was giving 100% and Gohan finally accepted that he could be as strong, he entered the battle with confidence in himself.

Hope some of that helped...

[wannywan]

And no, Goku and Vegeta already knew that USSJ wasn't a good idea, and Trunks had learned that lesson the hard way by now. The form had it's moment and failed.

Totally. You can clearly see in the manga when the Cell Jr's fight with Trunks, Vegeta and the rest, that Trunks and Vegeta are not using the USSJ form.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta is stronger than 50% FPSSJ Goku. Recall that Goku powers up to half for Korin, and everybody senses it.

At the Cell Games, Vegeta believes he's surpassed Goku (he thought Goku's 50% was his full power) until Goku powers up completely, then Vegeta's like O_O.

Also, Cell states that Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own against the Cell Jrs. Goku did not get a senzu after his fight with Cell, so he was too drained. Piccolo is down with the humans by this point.

Goku did order Krillin to give him a senzu just before the Cell jrs were created, so he was probably intending to jump back into the fight to prevent Gohan from being killed. Even if he got a Zenkai, I doubt it would've been enough to defeat Cell (if nothing else, because of his regeneration).

[Friezafan120]

"No. At this point I think Zenkai powerups would have little if any impact, assuming they could even get them anymore."

I disagree. Cell recovers after self destructing and his power goes up quite a bit; probably on par with Gohan's SSJ2 form. Wether Goku would recieve one though...I doubt it, maybe a very slight one. He wasn't really that injured besides a few cuts and bruises from his fight with Cell.

[Kaboom]

"No. At this point I think Zenkai powerups would have little if any impact, assuming they could even get them anymore."

I disagree. Cell recovers after self destructing and his power goes up quite a bit; probably on par with Gohan's SSJ2 form. Wether Goku would recieve one though...I doubt it, maybe a very slight one. He wasn't really that injured besides a few cuts and bruises from his fight with Cell.

Right. Cell got such a big zenkai because he was about as close to death as you can get (blowing yourself up and regenerating from a single cell tends to count as such). Goku got worn out, and used up a good amount of his ki, but he wasn't even really injured, so to say. I agree that by this point in the series, zenkai didn't play as much into power boosts as they used to.

[SDHero]

Yeah, Goku's nowhere near the "oh jeez, I'm gonna die!" stage when he forfeits the fight. He acts more like he's had a strenous work-out than a battle to the death.

He (and everyone else) would be more likely to have recieved a powerup after being saved from the Cell Jr.'s, which really do kinda kick everyone's butt. However, given the amount of training Vegeta has to do to get stronger at this point in the series, and the amount of severe ass-whuppings he is handed, I think it's safe to say that zenkai power-ups prolly don't carry beyond the threshold of a Super Saiyan.

[Friezafan120]

"He (and everyone else) would be more likely to have recieved a powerup after being saved from the Cell Jr.'s, which really do kinda kick everyone's butt. However, given the amount of training Vegeta has to do to get stronger at this point in the series, and the amount of severe ass-whuppings he is handed, I think it's safe to say that zenkai power-ups prolly don't carry beyond the threshold of a Super Saiyan."


That's a very good point about Vegeta.

[Rocketman]

Goku got worn out, and used up a good amount of his ki, but he wasn't even really injured, so to say. I agree that by this point in the series, zenkai didn't play as much into power boosts as they used to.

Don't bet on that. That's about how badly Goku was injured when he got that unholy power jump in the Freeza Saga.

[SDHero]

Goku got worn out, and used up a good amount of his ki, but he wasn't even really injured, so to say. I agree that by this point in the series, zenkai didn't play as much into power boosts as they used to.

Don't bet on that. That's about how badly Goku was injured when he got that unholy power jump in the Freeza Saga.

Umm, given he didn't need to regenerate inside a healing tank after fighting Cell, that seems unlikely to me. He couldn't move after fighting Ginyu.

[Kaboom]

Don't bet on that. That's about how badly Goku was injured when he got that unholy power jump in the Freeza Saga.

Umm, given he didn't need to regenerate inside a healing tank after fighting Cell, that seems unlikely to me. He couldn't move after fighting Ginyu.

Yeah. Goku was tired, but he hadn't just had his body beaten all severly like Vegeta had done. He was just worn out, and had a few bumps, scratches, and bruises. Even in addition to using up a lot (if not most) of his ki, he didn't come out of the fight with Cell too bad off.

[Mr.Piccolo]

One thing that really confuses me is this: If Vegeta and Trunks were in a normal SSj form during the Cell Games, was the USSj transformation unnecessary against Cell in his second form? Or was the training in RoSaT enough for them to simply surpass the Nos.17 and 18 at the very least?

Also, the, uh, 'zenkai' powerups are very strange after Goku's in DragonBall. The examples of Namek came up but what about Vegeta actually dying on Namek and against Buu? Do you only get a power boost if you're near death, but not actually dead? Also, Gohan survived two major beatings in the Buu Arc. Was it ever specifically said that he had a major power up afterwards?
-Rick

[Kaboom]

One thing that really confuses me is this: If Vegeta and Trunks were in a normal SSj form during the Cell Games, was the USSj transformation unnecessary against Cell in his second form? Or was the training in RoSaT enough for them to simply surpass the Nos.17 and 18 at the very least?

Um... probably. With USSj, Imperfect Cell was absolutly owned by Vegeta (and Trunks, in the anime). It's not to hard to believe that they could have at least matched him without it. 1st-stage Cell or 17/18... forget it. They'd be toast.

Also, the, uh, 'zenkai' powerups are very strange after Goku's in DragonBall. The examples of Namek came up but what about Vegeta actually dying on Namek and against Buu? Do you only get a power boost if you're near death, but not actually dead? Also, Gohan survived two major beatings in the Buu Arc. Was it ever specifically said that he had a major power up afterwards?
-Rick

No, I don't believe you get a zenkai if you actually die. They work by being healed from injury. The closer you are to death, the bigger the boost. But if you actually die, well, no power boost for you. It's like a game of chicken. The closer you get before pulling away, the more you "win." You don't pull away, then, well... you're f***ed.

I don't think zenkais were ever mentioned in the story past Freeza, save for Cell's after regenerating. Whether they happened or not at any other time, I don't know.

[Mr.Piccolo]

No, I don't believe you get a zenkai if you actually die. They work by being healed from injury. The closer you are to death, the bigger the boost. But if you actually die, well, no power boost for you.

Remember those filler episodes in the Freeza Arc when Vegeta is talking crap? More specificly, when he hopes Freeza and Goku dies so he will be the strongest in the universe? Doesn't Vegeta brag about how much his power has gone up since coming back from the dead?
-Rick

[Kaboom]

No, I don't believe you get a zenkai if you actually die. They work by being healed from injury. The closer you are to death, the bigger the boost. But if you actually die, well, no power boost for you.

Remember those filler episodes in the Freeza Arc when Vegeta is talking crap? More specificly, when he hopes Freeza and Goku dies so he will be the strongest in the universe? Doesn't Vegeta brag about how much his power has gone up since coming back from the dead?
-Rick

Oh, I dunno. That was filler-tastic, I know that much. But what's the point in a zenkai if you die (iDragonBall factor aside?)?

[SDHero]

Once again, the real problem is how Toriyama pretty well forgot about this idea by the time he got into the Cell Arc of the story.

I think it makes the most sense to suggest that once you're a Super Saiyan, you're on a whole 'nother playing field, and the "near-death" powerup might exist, but has a negligible effect on your power once you can increase it so much more exponentially by transforming. This may just be a by-product of the fact that once Goku goes SSJ, Toriyama never mentions the idea again, but hey, if it works, go with it!

[Kaboom]

Once again, the real problem is how Toriyama pretty well forgot about this idea by the time he got into the Cell Arc of the story.

I think it makes the most sense to suggest that once you're a Super Saiyan, you're on a whole 'nother playing field, and the "near-death" powerup might exist, but has a negligible effect on your power once you can increase it so much more exponentially by transforming. This may just be a by-product of the fact that once Goku goes SSJ, Toriyama never mentions the idea again, but hey, if it works, go with it!

But Toriyama-sensei did mention it; Cell got a big boost. But your explanation makes sense. Cell only got a noticable powerup because his near-death experience was so extreme.