What is the best power level list? [and other questions]

[johnboy1]

Hello, all! Especially you, Ex! Great site! Forgive me for using dub names, but the dub was how I was "raised" on DB/Z/GT, and it is hard for me to forget my roots.

Anywho, we all know that the official power levels we have are relatively few in the big picture of things. We have, basically:

A few odds and ends from the Dragon Ball era
Quite a few from the Saiyan Saga
A fair amount from the Frieza Saga
A single (supressed) level from the VERY early Android Saga

From the Buu Saga, we have measurements from the infamous punching machine, but most of these are inaccurate because of how much everyone (except Hercule) held back. Of course, whether or not these are "power levels" as we know them is debatable. We also have Yakon's and SS Goku's strength on Babidi's kili meter, but we know for a fact that these are not traditional power levels, so they're only good for the proportions between those two's actual levels.

For years, fans have tried to fill in the blanks, and fiery debate after fiery debate has ensued. Toei, the company that we are grateful to for bringing that fantastic manga to life, has actually mucked the process up by creating the pointless and inconsistent, yet sadly necessary, filler episodes.

The release of the (pure evil) Dragon Ball Guide Book by a third party in 1996, which had a disgustingly inaccurate power level list, and it's introduction to the internet via the (almost as evil) Saiyan'z Pride website did not help matters in the least.

The widest area of extreme disagreement is anything past Trunks' decimation of Frieza and King Cold. Why? Because guesses for the DB or early DBZ sagas have to be kept within certain numerical boundaries to capiche with later given levels. After Frieza and Cold bite the big one, there are no more levels given (besides other measurements from the Buu saga), so, quite frankly, the sky is the limit.

I can, with a fairly clear conscience, say that this message board has about as intellectual a community as any DB/Z/GT website out there. So I ask you, is there any general concensus among you on what the best "filled-in" list out there is? By filled-in, I mean any list that tries to cover everything not given.

I also have a couple other questions, but they are (thankfully) not as long as the above.

The first question is actually directed at those who run this wonderful site: In your movie guide, you neglect to include the live-action DB movie. No, not the one that might (or might not) be made a bajillion years from now (okay, it's three, but that's still a lot), but the (very poor) adaptation made sometime in the 90's. Did you neglect to include it because it was not anime, or because it's pure, unadulterated ****tiness would burn your eyes out of their sockets? [Wow, that's a lot of parenteses.]

The second is directed to everyone: Of the movies and TV specials, the only ones that actually fit in with the timeline presented in the anime are the Bardock, Trunks, and Goku Jr. TV specials (that last one depends on whether or not you count all of GT as a big plothole). The only actual movie that comes close is DBZ movie number 9, with the only inconsistency being Trunks' hair length. As minor as that is, do you think we should consider the events of DBZ movie 9 as canon or throw it into the huge pile of "what-if's" that comprises the rest of the movies?

Oh, oh, oh! One more! Is Dragon Ball one word or two words? I've wondered that for ages and have never gotten a straight answer!

[SpaceKappa]

Regardless of how well anything fits in with the storyline, anything anime-only isn't canon. While Movie 9 could be considered part of the storyline, it isn't canon as it wasn't part of the original manga.

Dragon Ball or Dragonball really just depends on preference. Neither way is more right than the other.

As far as Power Levels go, I still cannot understand everyone's fascination with them. I find placing a number on someone's strength is very limiting and takes away most of the excitement from a fight.

[*PINHEAD*]

Well....eh...

Power levels are wierd things. As you said, they were only a few from early Dragon Ball, a lot from the Saiyan story arc, and some in the Freeza story arc. When Trunks arrived supressing his ki, that was the last time anyone used the power level system thing. The best source would be the Daizenshuu guides, although I'm not sure which one has the power levels in them. There are a handful of reliable sites that give levels from the Daizenshuus, but I'm not sure if I can post them here.

Move 9, in my opinion, could have taken place somewhere in one of the other timelines that Trunks (and Cell, because he intervened with the original two timelines and messed everything up for us inferior, less intelligent folk) created. Remember, movies aren't really supposed to take place in the main story line. It's like how the Spider-Man movies are based on the real storyline (the comics, that is), but still wouldn't fit in the comics' storyline. All the movies are just retellings of the current DB story, just with original enemies.

And, uh, DB is two words. In all the original Dragon Ball Weekly Jump issues, whenever it's spelled in English, its "Dragon Ball." Even the tankoubon say DRAGON BALL on them. But, whats confusing, is the Kanzenban, meaning Perfect, or Complete Edition, has it spelled in English as Dragonball (one word). Daizex calls it DragonBall, so it's like a compromise between the two...I guess.

[Sun_Wukong]

I think movie 9 couldve taken place sometime after Trunks defeats the androids and Cell in his time. Doesnt he mention that he planned on going back to Goku's time?

Does anyone other than me think movie 13 couldve taken place during the 10 years after Buu was killed?

*PINHEAD*, dont even compare the Spiderman movies to the DB movies. they're far off from what you were saying. The Spiderman movies were never meant to fit into the comics timeline. I honestly think Toei was trying to fit the movies into the DB timeline though.

[B-kun]

Ya, I think mvoie 13 was definitely intended to take place in the 10 year gap, most likely a few months after Buu's defeat, if even that. There really isn't anything to clash, considering the sword Trunks gets at the end is present in GT.

However, most of the movies (with the exception of 1,5, and 9) can't fit, no matter what. There's another thread about this, but it's rather inccorect (I don't think Mike's bothered updating it).

Oh, and movie 9 is officially slated to have taken place after Trunks killed the Artificial Humans in his time. Bulma noted it.

And Dayspring, if you bring up the hair even after That Other Topic, I will kill you.

[johnboy1]

Mizugi, I completely understand what you mean. If I could be so bold as to guess, I would assume you're a free spirit, right? You don't like power levels because you feel it limits creativity. Well, to be frank, that's why I like them.

You see, I'm an avid conformist that likes to live a monotonous daily routine. No, I'm dead serious. Having a show that pins numbers on people's strengths lets me rest at ease, because I don't have to worry about who will win. That's how I like it. Let the artists dream, the architects build, and the scientists speculate. All I ask of in my future is a middle-class job with steady income, a wife and 2.5 kids (it's an expression).

In my opinion, Majin Buu is the perfect villain. Why? Because his lack of defined physical form, inconsistent and paradoxical transformations, and utter lack of conformity to any law of physics DBZ leaves intact makes him the personification of evil to me. So, to me, the perfect villain is one that makes no sense. The perfect hero is one that does. Goku is a well-meaning idiot that will fight to the death for the well-being of those he loves. This description can apply to him at any point in the series, making him consistent in my mind. Therefore, he is good.

Wow, I went a bit pseudo-philosophical on you for a second. Sorry.

[SpaceKappa]

I don't feel they limit creativity, they exterminate suspense.

Two warriors, both wearing Scouters, approach each other
WARRIOR 1: Hm. He's got a Power Level of 756.
WARRIOR 2: Oh crap, he's got a Power Level of 1200!

You already know who's going to win, and the fight's not even going to be close. What's the point in even watching the fight take place anymore? The only saving grace for the Freeza saga was that the Z Senshi learned to supress their ki so you never knew quite how strong they were.

[James R. Cadwell]

I don't feel they limit creativity, they exterminate suspense.

Then why would you have any issue with power levels created retroactively? The series has been over for years, so it's not like saying "SSJ2 Gohan = 900 trillion, Perfect Cell = 25 trillion" ruins the conclusion of the Cell Games.

You already know who's going to win, and the fight's not even going to be close. What's the point in even watching the fight take place anymore?

So Radditz beat Goku and Piccolo?

Anyway, I agree that the series would have lacked any suspense if we were given the exact power levels of each character during the episode/manga chapter. That's not what happened, though, and it didn't really adversely affect the plot the few times that we were given that information.

[B-kun]

So Radditz beat Goku and Piccolo?

Uhm, no. But Nappa literally massacred the Z Senshi. By then, they hadn't learned how to control their power levels, and he was able to find out exactly how strong they were and murdered them with ridiculous ease (though I'll admit a couple killed themselves, though it was trying to stop Nappa, to no avail).

[James R. Cadwell]

Uhm, no. But Nappa literally massacred the Z Senshi. By then, they hadn't learned how to control their power levels, and he was able to find out exactly how strong they were and murdered them with ridiculous ease (though I'll admit a couple killed themselves, though it was trying to stop Nappa, to no avail).

Yeah, but knowing their power levels didn't affect the plot in any meaningful way. We knew Nappa was stronger and he won. We also knew that Radditz was stronger, and he was killed. Trunks didn't seem to have a large power level when he first appeared, and he slaughtered Freeza. Scouter readings didn't always give away the conclusion to every battle.

[Xyex]

Anyway, I agree that the series would have lacked any suspense if we were given the exact power levels of each character during the episode/manga chapter. That's not what happened, though, and it didn't really adversely affect the plot the few times that we were given that information.

Yeah, noting powers now and then in the series was good to give an indication of what was going on. But if it had been constant, and constantly accurate, then that would have been bad.

But in the long run, from a Fanfic writing stand-point especially, I love PLs. They give me refrence for strength's in the story so I know how close a battle should be. And for my stories I post all the PLs to a message board I set up, but only after they're seen in the story so that you don't go "Oh, she's at 45 million and Vegeta's only at 30 million. Well, looks like she'll win." before you even see the fight. Cause that would suck.

[B-kun]

Trunks didn't seem to have a large power level when he first appeared, and he slaughtered Freeza. Scouter readings didn't always give away the conclusion to every battle.

Ya, but by THEN, everyone and their grandmother knew how to conceal their battle power. It no longer mattered by then.