The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Green_Goblin]

Holding down a non serious Goku in a joke scene isn't enough to prove anything. It's like saying the bullet that scratched pre ToP Goku would kill Frieza. Chiatsu was too weak to even bring to fight Frieza soldier fodder, and to weak to be considered as a ToP member.

LMAO do you even FOLLOW OR LISTEN OR READ WHAT THE CHARACTERS SAID? Chiaotzu was only excluded THAT WAY IN THE MOVIE! In the Resurrection 'F' arc as soon as the Frieza Soldiers get out of the ship Tien appologize he didn't brought Chiaotzu along, and in the manga Tien suggests to bring Chiaotzu for the Tournament of Power when it turns out the 10th spot is open.

This is very rude. He may have missed some dialogue you don't have to chastise him for it

I don't think it is rude to point out Chiaotzu is stronger than Frieza's soldiers, let alone the ones in his last revenge were stated to be B RATE soldiers even weaker than the norm of his army prior to his death.

[dragon boss z]

Jiren flexing didn't ring Roshi out, so that's doubtful.

Jiren was just toying with him. When he got slightly serious he casually knocked him off.

How different? From what i've seen so far in Toyotaro's Super, technique is taking a huge part on fights. Jiren even calls Goku dumb for relying too much in power when he does that pseudo Kaioken.

You just said how it was different the second after you asked. In Super techniques are more imporant and power has become less important.

Boo can scretch any of his limbs and be back on the battlefield, or leave a piece of himself to regenerate if he gets ringed out, so not really. Plus, either way the other examples i gave stand solid to prove numbers don't matter if you're an ant. To quote Freeza:
Freeza: “Naturally…Did you really think that 3 ants could win against a dinosaur?”

If Buu was smart, of course he wouldn't lose. But Fat Buu is dumb enough to get ringed out by multiple ssj2 tier fighters with a plan.

Goku didn't know Piccolo had improved yet though, he as going by status quo. When Piccolo fights Frost he even gets surprised by how good he's performing.

At best he is around good Buu level, and that is being generous. It's only been a few months since RoF where he was clearly weaker than Buu. And if 7 years of training from the cell games to the buu saga couldn't even get him to Cell tier, I highly doubt he got to Buu tier that quickly.

Either way, he still needed SSJ to even get an upperhand against them and he didn't ring out anyone when he went SSJ. Them being weaker than Base Goku is impossible.

It definitely isn't impossible, and I already explained why. Piccolo did just as bad as base Goku did against the pride troopers when he went up against U9 and he went up against less people. He was stronger than all of them individually. Goku was easily beating the pride troopers as ssj, that doesn't mean they were close to his peak ssj level, it just means all together they pushed him beyond base. Now if the pride troopers actually pushed a full power ssj Goku (which they didn't) then what you are saying would make sense, but all they did was have some trouble against base Goku even all together, and then when he went ssj start getting casually beat.

LMAO do you even FOLLOW OR LISTEN OR READ WHAT THE CHARACTERS SAID? Chiaotzu was only excluded THAT WAY IN THE MOVIE! In the Resurrection 'F' arc as soon as the Frieza Soldiers get out of the ship Tien appologize he didn't brought Chiaotzu along, and in the manga Tien suggests to bring Chiaotzu for the Tournament of Power when it turns out the 10th spot is open.

Do you really expect me to have every single line of dialog ever said or written memorized? Chiaotzu clearly isn't supposed to be that strong, there really isn't any way around that. Logically he shouldn't even be close to first form Frieza, let alone 100%.

I don't think it is rude to point out Chiaotzu is stronger than Frieza's soldiers, let alone the ones in his last revenge were stated to be B RATE soldiers even weaker than the norm of his army prior to his death.

I never said Chiaotzu was weaker than Frieza's soldiers... And that's clearly not what you pointed out.

[RandomGuy96]

If it was this easy Jiren would have done it

That is in fact exactly what Jiren did. There's even a nice little series of panels where we get a close-up of Jiren's expression going from blank to slightly annoyed right before he immediately knocks Roshi out, to make it exceedingly clear for the children reading.

[Hugo Boss]

Your argument doesn't explain why Jiren was taking Vegeta's fury of punches later in the fight more seriously than Goku's from the hour special. There was no implied sloppiness from Jiren in that episode. It's like you pull random headcanon out of nowhere.

Jiren powered up right before Goku reuses KKx20 and Vegeta unlocks SSBE for the first time, with Jiren saying I'm gonna need more power against these two. This was before the 2 ganged up on him with bad teamwork.

Hit didn't go all out on Goku when he was in base (he even said it himself), so that argument doesn't work either.

This is not a argument or headcannon. It’s outright told by Vegeta that Jiren is not using the same strength he used against Goku. Jiren never told anything about having to use more power against Goku and Vegeta. And Hit was fighting Base Goku in the same way he fought SSB Vegeta, I don’t know what you are trying to imply here. I suggest again that users actually check the episodes before engaging in circular discussions about them.

Speak for yourself.

1. Vegeta was obviously referring to UI Goku, because Vegeta could easily see and react to the punches Jiren threw at SSB Goku in that same episode. Plus, he was able to create a Final Flash stronger than the Spirit Bomb (which itself was stronger than KKx20). So your wrong here again.

Here's Jiren powering up against Goku and Vegeta in 123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLwx3sjAyY

2. Hit himself stated that he didn't go all out with base Goku (nor did he hit his vitals like he did to SSB Vegeta). You keep denying that.

I’m not sure how Vegeta dodging Jiren’s punches is a power related thing. Just shows that you aren’t paying attention to what the characters say about his feat. Final flash is above any power Vegeta used until then, but none implies it’s stronger than genkidama.

Quote the line in which Jiren says he will need more power, please. Though, I’m pretty sure Jiren is practically silent all the time. He powered-up because he was annoyed at Goku running away. Funny enough the air current of his simple punch on this level scared the blue out of Goku.

By the way, Hit never said that. On contrary, he said that if Goku kept getting hit on his vital points he would die. It was Goku who said Hit would start to get serious after reading his fighting style.

[ahill1]

Trunks is stronger, Piccolo himself admitted that much. But I think he can fool the kid somehow to pull a win. Maybe trick him into taking an amplified attack or letting his guard down.

Does Piccolo saying that the kids are Earth's last hope count as an admittance of inferiority? After all, Piccolo knew about the RoSaT and how the kids, with their horrific potential, could train there and shape themselves into warriors with power enough to deal with Boo. Even if Goten and Trunks were < Piccolo, I can see Piccolo's line fitting the context, as beings with the potential enough to easily leave him in the dust with a proper RoSaT training would be more fitting to fight Boo than Piccolo himself, whom, as far as the manga goes, we can assume is close to maxing out. Btw, the kids weren't strong enough to even touch fat Boo with the powers they had at the moment Piccolo performed that comment, so it's at least clear Piccolo wasn't considering their current powers when saying that.

[RandomGuy96]

Trunks is stronger, Piccolo himself admitted that much. But I think he can fool the kid somehow to pull a win. Maybe trick him into taking an amplified attack or letting his guard down.

Does Piccolo saying that the kids are Earth's last hope count as an admittance of inferiority? After all, Piccolo knew about the RoSaT and how the kids, with their horrific potential, could train there and shape themselves into warriors with power enough to deal with Boo.

He forgot the ROSAT even existed at one point.

Btw, the kids weren't strong enough to even touch fat Boo with the powers they had at the moment Piccolo performed that comment, so it's at least clear Piccolo wasn't considering their current powers when saying that.

He was, which is he nervously says "a very faint hope."

[ahill1]

He forgot the ROSAT even existed at one point.

But couldn't he be considering it when he mentioned Goten and Trunks as their last hope? Also, could you point me out to when he forgot it? You mean when Goku mentioned it to him when they were on the spaceship? If yes, that was 7 years before... I don't think that's enough to discredit him bringing it up 7 years later, when Goku was worried about mastering fusion in time.

He was, which is he nervously says "a very faint hope."

Well, Piccolo also stated that even the three SSJ2-tiers had no chance at Boo if they went at him together, so it's pretty doubtful he'd consider, small though the hope was, a scenario where the wayyy weaker kids would fight Boo.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7
Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…”
Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”

If it 'probably' wouldn't matter how many people went at him, talking about three SSJ2-tiers, then I am not sure if the SSJ kids, who don't scale to even 50% of the adults' power, would even be assigned a chance to fight him.

[ricky84]

This is not a argument or headcannon. It’s outright told by Vegeta that Jiren is not using the same strength he used against Goku. Jiren never told anything about having to use more power against Goku and Vegeta. And Hit was fighting Base Goku in the same way he fought SSB Vegeta, I don’t know what you are trying to imply here. I suggest again that users actually check the episodes before engaging in circular discussions about them.

Speak for yourself.

1. Vegeta was obviously referring to UI Goku, because Vegeta could easily see and react to the punches Jiren threw at SSB Goku in that same episode. Plus, he was able to create a Final Flash stronger than the Spirit Bomb (which itself was stronger than KKx20). So your wrong here again.

Here's Jiren powering up against Goku and Vegeta in 123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLwx3sjAyY

2. Hit himself stated that he didn't go all out with base Goku (nor did he hit his vitals like he did to SSB Vegeta). You keep denying that.

I’m not sure how Vegeta dodging Jiren’s punches is a power related thing. Just shows that you aren’t paying attention to what the characters say about his feat. Final flash is above any power Vegeta used until then, but none implies it’s stronger than genkidama.

Quote the line in which Jiren says he will need more power, please. Though, I’m pretty sure Jiren is practically silent all the time. He powered-up because he was annoyed at Goku running away. Funny enough the air current of his simple punch on this level scared the blue out of Goku.

By the way, Hit never said that. On contrary, he said that if Goku kept getting hit on his vital points he would die. It was Goku who said Hit would start to get serious after reading his fighting style.

1. It obviously is a power related thing, since SSBKK Goku couldn't dodge his punches in the hour special, and the fact that in DB speed an strength go together unless explicitly stated otherwise. And the characters do say Vegeta dodging the punches is do to him breaking his limits, aka getting stronger, so its you who wasn't paying attention.

Jiren put more effort into blocking the Final Flash (and his reaction to it was more serious than the U7 Spirit Bomb) and was knocked to the ground, while with the Spirit Bomb he merely glared at it to deflect it and immediately reflected it when he started using his hands. That obviously shows that the Final Flash>>>>>>Spirit Bomb by simple common sense.

2. If Goku and Vegeta weren't any stronger in 123 than they were in the hour special then Jiren wouldn't have powered up to the extent that he did, nor would Goku and Vegeta perform nearly as good as they did against Jiren. Logic 101

[ZombieVito]

New match:
- Super (manga) Roshi vs. Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo

Roshi kills Freeza and Cell instantly. For Boo he uses Mafuba.

Manga DBS Roshi vs Buu Arc Vegito
TOP SSJG Goku vs U6 Hit
Current Base Goku & Vegeta vs Buuhan

Roshi.
Hit is still a lot stronger, he one shots.
The Saiyans win easily since they are a team.

Piccolo (Buu Saga) vs. Super Saiyan Kid Trunks

Supreme Kai vs Cell Jr

Piccolo is a little weaker but more experienced so he wins.
Shin takes this after a good fight.

MANGA Master ROSHI runs the MANGA Tournament of Power gauntlet
wins by knocking their opponent unconscious
Master Roshi vs
1) Basil
2) Ribrianne
3) Kahseral (well he was wounded when they fought so...)
4) Obuni
5) Bergamo
6) Magetta
7) Frost (Roshi didn't use his moves on frost at the start so....)
Piccolo
9) Goku (Base)

*Its hard to gauge the power level of characters in the manga cause its hinted that all fighters are not on full power in the beginning, Goku, Trio De Dangers and Vegeta said Frost was nuts for going all out form the start.
so if they were to go all out, who would win?

Given the stupidity Toyo pulled last chapter, Roshi solos all of them.

[AvatarReiko]

Piccolo said no matter how many SSJ2s attacked Boo nothing would change, etc.

Do you have a citation for this?

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo said no matter how many SSJ2s attacked Boo nothing would change, etc.

Do you have a citation for this?

Viz:

[dragon boss z]

Trunks is stronger, Piccolo himself admitted that much. But I think he can fool the kid somehow to pull a win. Maybe trick him into taking an amplified attack or letting his guard down.

Does Piccolo saying that the kids are Earth's last hope count as an admittance of inferiority? After all, Piccolo knew about the RoSaT and how the kids, with their horrific potential, could train there and shape themselves into warriors with power enough to deal with Boo. Even if Goten and Trunks were < Piccolo, I can see Piccolo's line fitting the context, as beings with the potential enough to easily leave him in the dust with a proper RoSaT training would be more fitting to fight Boo than Piccolo himself, whom, as far as the manga goes, we can assume is close to maxing out. Btw, the kids weren't strong enough to even touch fat Boo with the powers they had at the moment Piccolo performed that comment, so it's at least clear Piccolo wasn't considering their current powers when saying that.

I completely agree with you. He had to be talking about their potential as their current power gave them a literal 0% chance at winning. An ant wouldn't say a bigger ant is their best chance at taking a full sized human down, both are equally powerless even though one ant is bigger and stronger than the other.
I think people are too generous with Goten and Trunk's power. They have never beaten anyone relevant in 1v1 combat, and they seem to have even been nerfed in Super. Not to mention Trunks has the exact same genes as future Trunks, so should be no stronger than future Trunk's initial appearance when he killed Frieza and King Cold, considering that trunks was older, more experience, trained longer/harder, and had multiple zenkai from real combat.

[ricky84]

Piccolo (Buu Saga) vs. Super Saiyan Kid Trunks

Supreme Kai vs Cell Jr

- Piccolo stomps. Buuccolo's existence proves that Piccolo is way stronger than Present Trunks and Goten.

- Supreme Kai stomps. He is arguably stronger than Percent Cell.

[Bullza]

- Piccolo stomps. Buuccolo's existence proves that Piccolo is way stronger than Present Trunks and Goten.

But those two were in Base form at the time so Piccolo would be dominant no?

Daizenshuu 2 also states that Goten's (presumably base, given the following sentence) battle power is on par with Gohan's.

Was this before or after the Roast training where they supposedly powered up massively? If it was before then going by that shouldn't they be above Gohan?

[RandomGuy96]

- Piccolo stomps. Buuccolo's existence proves that Piccolo is way stronger than Present Trunks and Goten.

But those two were in Base form at the time so Piccolo would be dominant no?

Daizenshuu 2 also states that Goten's (presumably base, given the following sentence) battle power is on par with Gohan's.

Was this before or after the Roast training where they supposedly powered up massively? If it was before then going by that shouldn't they be above Gohan?

Not only that, but there are actually two Buuccolos. One with just the cape, and one with that plus Piccolo's shirt, uglier facial features, a smaller tentacle, and fewer fingers. The kids actually influenced Buu more when you compare them. They morphed his body, Piccolo just added clothing.

It's probably before since by the time they were post ROSAT Gohan's base was stronger than Goku's (by the Z Sword scene). And no, it wouldn't put them above, necessarily. Both because of the Z Sword training and because I don't think they actually gained much battle power in a mere 2 weeks.

[ricky84]

There is no way SSJ Goten and SSJ P.Trunks were stronger than Piccolo in the Buu saga, even after going into the ROSAT. Goten and Trunks were shown to be at best equal to Android 18 in that arc, while Piccolo even before going into the ROSAT and training for 7 years afterwards was equal to Android 17, who is stronger than 18.

[ricky84]

- Piccolo stomps. Buuccolo's existence proves that Piccolo is way stronger than Present Trunks and Goten.

But those two were in Base form at the time so Piccolo would be dominant no?

Daizenshuu 2 also states that Goten's (presumably base, given the following sentence) battle power is on par with Gohan's.

Was this before or after the Roast training where they supposedly powered up massively? If it was before then going by that shouldn't they be above Gohan?

Not only that, but there are actually two Buuccolos. One with just the cape, and one with that plus Piccolo's shirt, uglier facial features, a smaller tentacle, and fewer fingers. The kids actually influenced Buu more when you compare them. They morphed his body, Piccolo just added clothing.

It's probably before since by the time they were post ROSAT Gohan's base was stronger than Goku's (by the Z Sword scene). And no, it wouldn't put them above, necessarily. Both because of the Z Sword training and because I don't think they actually gained much battle power in a mere 2 weeks.

Where do you get that headcanon from? Only one version of Buucollo had ever appeared in the manga and anime. Whenever Buu absorbs people, he takes on the clothes of the strongest victim. The fact that he had Piccolo's clothes after Gotenks defused makes it clear that Piccolo > Goten and Trunks.

[ricky84]

How strong do you guys think Gohan would be if he could stack SSB on top of his Ultimate form after the ToP? Who would be the strongest person he could beat?

[Desassina]

There's actually two Piccolo Boos in the manga. One with Piccolo's full attire without Goten and Trunks absorbed (they were already pulled out) and the other with base Gotenks (or Goten and Trunks) to empower Evil Boo beneath the major smarts of Piccolo. Remember that, even if South Kaioshin Boo was stronger, Dai Kaioshin showed through his nature, and that is just an example.

[RandomGuy96]

Where do you get that headcanon from? Only one version of Buucollo had ever appeared in the manga and anime.

Wrong.

Super Buu with Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo absorbed:

Super Buu with ONLY Piccolo absorbed:

Whenever Buu absorbs people, he takes on the clothes of the strongest victim.

No he doesn't. He took on the Dai Kaioshin's clothes even though South Kaioshin was explicitly stronger.

The fact that he had Piccolo's clothes after Gotenks defused makes it clear that Piccolo > Goten and Trunks.

Nope. At best, Piccolo > BASE Goten, since they were in their base forms inside Buu. But more likely it doesn't actually mean anything since the kids were still influencing Buu more than Piccolo was and nothing says Buu has to be modeled on the strongest absorption.