We've seen an attack from a more powerful Vegeta do nothing to Freeza when he wasn't even expecting it. He didn't even care enough to dodge it. Freeza made it a point to dodge all of the kienzans coming his way. Proof implying the opposite? Doesn't look like you have any.
Again, I don't need any proof. You're the one that's saying that the Kienzan works differently from every other ki attack. You're the one who needs proof that such a thing is the case.
Vegeta was winded, meaning he was still weaker than Freeza. Freeza doesn't even know how strong Gohan and Krillin is, so that's an assumption. Before Freeza attacked, Vegeta said he was getting close to reaching Super Saiyan, which prompted the attack to begin with. It not being a "complete lie" doesn't all of a sudden mean they can beat him. Hell, even Krillin says Freeza is pretty calm.
Yes, and? He was weaker, but he clearly wasn't less than half his strong, or one-shot material, or anything. Unless Vegeta lied about them having a chance for no reason, Gohan lied in his own mind for no reason, and Freeza chose to hold back the majority of his power in his blood-thirsty rage for some reason.
Because that'd be dumb considering Piccolo and the others were all shown to be far weaker than Freeza. He was dodging to show off his speed. Terrible example. Krillin's kienzan, however, sliced his tail clean off after he saw it coming. Freeza's so pissed at Krillin that he makes it a point to dodge the other ones as well. So you still haven't proved anything.
Yet it was never shown that final form Freeza could tank Piccolo, so clearly Piccolo's punch > Freeza.
It sliced a noted weak spot when he caught Freeza off-guard. This isn't a huge accomplishment. Him moving out of the way of the other Kienzans, again, is not proof of anything. We see characters dodge attacks all the time that they don't even really need to dodge. Like Freeza himself.
It could, based on what we see
We see it cut through the torso of an on-guard, full power 2nd form Freeza? I could have sworn we just saw it cut a weak spot on an off-guard, suppressed 2nd form Freeza.
Proof of the difference being far bigger?
You mean proof that base Goten is stronger than suppressed 2nd form Freeza?
What matters is second form Freeza had a pretty sizable advantage over Krillin, and Goten had a significant advantage over a more powerful Krillin many yrs later. The main takeaway is the kienzan had the potential to cut Freeza in pieces while the same Freeza made no effort to dodge a more powerful Vegeta's attack. Saying it wouldn't do the same to Goten is an assumption
No, it's not. It's an assumption to say that it would, since one, we never saw it cut through full power, on-guard 2nd form Freeza, and two, base Goten is way, way, WAY stronger than that Freeza.
A no limits fallacy isn't proof. Now provide some actual proof that Krillin's Kienzan can cut through someone as strong as Goten, when it's just a regular ki attack shaped in a specific way.
The Super Saiyans kid were far more powerful than #18, but that kienzan would've sliced through them as well. Proof? They were trying their absolute hardest to get the fuck outta the way.
Or maybe it would have just hurt a bit. And the gap between base Goten and Krillin is still far larger than the gap between 18 and the SS kids.
Which is unfounded.
Oh, so you're saying it IS magical one-hit kill wonder move, and that Krillin could one-shot Super Vegetto if he wanted to? I'd like to see some proof of that claim.
You're the one who's claiming it wouldn't work on Goten. Burden of proof, man. Find an example of the kienzan evaporating upon touching someone vastly more powerful, or admit you have no proof.
You don't know how burden of proof works, do you?
It was only used once, and the person that tanked it underestimated its power. It also never nearly killed Cell--merely destroyed a nice portion of his body. Besides all that, it was a really strong Chi attack, like a Kamehameha. Not comparable to the kienzan at all because the properties of the attack differ.
Yes, and?
Bullshit. It tore off half his body. He would have died if he hadn't jumped out of the way at the last second. That's far better than anything Krillin's Kienzan ever managed.
No, they're completely comparable. The Kienzan isn't magic. It's just a ki attack. A ki attack shaped into a sharp edge, like the SBC, but still just a ki attack.
Oh, the Raditz is 1,500 stuff again? Not touching that. I'll just say 1,330 was enough to wipe him out and 1,307 was enough to leave him all but powerless. However much stronger Raditz was didn't matter because Piccolo's attack was clearly greater than his actual power. Yep.
Except, no, it wasn't. His attack was 1,330, Raditz's battle power as given in every official source is 1,500.
Cutting Freeza's tail off and putting Freeza in a position where he doesn't want to come close to touching a kienzan is unimpressive, even though there's a vast difference in power between the two. Whatever you say.
Destroying his tail is apparently really easy (the Genki-Dama destroyed his tail and only put a few scratches on the rest of him). As is making him dodge. He dodges attacks that he doesn't even need to dodge. He's not the only one. Goku dodged one of Nappa's punches, and looked a bit worried as he did so, despite the fact that he was twice Nappa's strength.
And this changes things, how? The force of the attack is enough to keep Cell down long enough for the Androids to escape. Meanwhile, #16's punch doesn't even move Cell slightly. The Neo Kikoho is shown to be a more powerful technique than anything #16 can do at that point.
No, it's shown to be a kiai attack which can push people. Nothing is ever shown indicating that it has significant power, and in fact Ten and Piccolo explicitly state that Ten can't do shit against the androids and Cell, meaning that the attack really isn't that great.
Cell couldn't even get out of it, or he would've once he saw #18 fleeing. The fact is he was unable to get around it, which means it'd be more effective when used against someone weaker with even less resistance. Cell also looked at Tenshinhan and saw him readying up the attack. Not exactly what I'd call off-guard, but even if you go with that, he still couldn't stop it. No damage to Cell doesn't somehow mean every single person would take no damage. That's just silly.
I think it's much more silly to think that Ten repeatedly lied about his ability to one-shot every villain before Semi-Cell, and instead chose to look like a weak retard by charging in to fight 17, when he supposedly could've fired this one-hit-kill wonder move to instantly win. Again, you can push someone with a kiai without actually hurting them the tiniest bit. Are you going to claim that base Trunks' kiai can one-shot the future androids, because it pushed around Imperfect Cell?
No. What's obvious is he's only willing to do the attack when he's extremely desperate. He just attacked #17 during the spur of the moment and was knocked out pretty quickly.
So, his first response was to run in to certain death, rather than to use his magic one-hit-kill wonder move that he can use repeatedly at little significant risk to himself to instantly solve the plot. Right, that makes total sense.
The attack not damaging Nappa doesn't mean the attack was weak, though. It was obviously powerful if Piccolo was questioning if Nappa was immortal. It just wasn't enough to harm Nappa. The fact that Tenshinhan is pretty damaged also doesn't help.
Right, but the thing is, it still did nothing to Nappa. If it was so overwhelmingly powerful as you're saying it is (enough to let Buu arc Tenshinhan, who's probably around Ginyu's level, kill base Goten, who is in the tens of millions), Nappa would be dead. Instead, he was completely unharmed (his clothes can't say the same). A kick to the face from an angry Gohan did far more.
Doesn't change the fact that it's an attack associated with great risks. This is stated quite a few times, which is why the technique isn't used all that much.
So? Ten uses it casually at the Budokai to blow up the arena, and he's fine afterwards. He does it again later at the 23rd Budokai. He fires ten of the things at Semi-Cell, and until the last few he seems fine (even after he fires the last one, he's just exhausted). There's no real reason for him not to use it against every main villain if it was really so powerful. Daimao wouldn't a threat. Nor would Piccolo Jr, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, King Cold, Mecha Freeza, Gero, 17-18, and Imperfect Cell.
I was talking about Goku going to recruit Tenshinhan for the Raditz battle. Their Chi-sensing sorta sucked back then, which is why Goku needed Bulma's radar to get a precise read on Raditz
Okay.
Looking for Tenshinhan at that point would've been really stupid--and I doubt Piccolo would've been eager to do it. I already explained why Tenshinhan didn't use it against the Androids. Piccolo would've just dodged it.
Yet he had no problem using the Mafuba, a supposedly much riskier technique that Piccolo would also logically be able to dodge. I also have a hard time seeing a half-dead Piccolo dodge it, especially if he's already being restrained by Kami and the others. And, of course, there's no reason he couldn't have used it against Cell or the androids, unless he secretly gets off pain (both feeling pain and seeing other people in pain), and so charged in to let himself get beaten up rather than one-shot the androids, and then sat there and watched Piccolo get tortured to death while lying about not being able to do anything.
Once again, Piccolo saying none of them can handle Gero means Gero is simply too powerful for them to fight. Nothing more. What's laughable is the idea of Tenshinhan risking himself when both Vegeta and Piccolo are readily available to take the initiative. Come on, now.
That, again, doesn't actually match the statement that was made. He said Ten and the others couldn't handle Gero. Which, if Ten could actually one-shot Gero, wouldn't be true. And Ten would be sure to let Piccolo know it.
Android 14 VS 100% Final Form Freeza
Lord Yao VS 21st WMAT Goku
5th Form Cooler VS SSJ Goku (First transformation on Namek)
Karin VS 22nd WMAT Jackie Chun
14 stomps. He was able to put up a decent fight against Android arc SS Trunks, who is stronger than Mecha arc SS Trunks, who one-shotted Freeza. Yeah, he one-shotted a suppressed Mecha Freeza rather than 100% Freeza himself, but considering Mecha Freeza was supposed to be about as strong as if not a little stronger than SS Namek Goku, and Freeza could jump to 70% power in the blink of an eye (meaning Mecha Freeza would be about 105 million when he got one-shotted), I don't think the difference matters that much. Plus, 14 has stamina on his side. 100% Mecha Freeza would put up a fight but would get worn down really quickly.
Goku stomps. I don't see any reason to put Yao above, say, that bear bandit.
Cooler stomps. He shrugged off blows from a version of Goku who was officially stronger than Yardrat SS Goku, and nearly killed him in their beam struggle.
I'll say Karin. Official power levels put him slightly stronger, and he's probably more experienced and skilled.
