The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

The GT Perfect Files says Vegetto may be even stronger than a Super Saiyan 4.

But SSJ Vegetto ~ SSJ 4 Goku is contradicted by the show

No it's not.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

*Super Baby 1 is formed*

Goku: "That's the greatest ki I ever felt"

Baby-Vegeta: "I now have the greatest saiyan power"

*Super Saiyan 4 Goku is formed*

Old Kaioshin: "That's the greatest ki I ever felt!"

So are these people bad at ki sensing now or something?

[Kamiccolo9]

*Super Baby 1 is formed*

Goku: "That's the greatest ki I ever felt"

Baby-Vegeta: "I now have the greatest saiyan power"

*Super Saiyan 4 Goku is formed*

Old Kaioshin: "That's the greatest ki I ever felt!"

So are these people bad at ki sensing now or what?

Goku says the exact same thing about Fat Janemba's ki, and then proceeds to go SSJ3 and rip him apart. Apparently Goku doesn't include himself in these things. And regardless, Goku never sensed Vegetto, seeing as when Vegetto was present, Goku didn't exist.

Show me where Old Kaioshin sensed Vegetto. Or anyone, for that matter.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Nothing on Super Baby Vegeta saying he has the greatest saiyan power?

Old Kaioshin can't sense ki? But Young Kaioshin can?

[Kamiccolo9]

Nothing on Super Baby Vegeta saying he has the greatest saiyan power?

Old Kaioshin can't sense ki? But Young Kaioshin can?

Why does what Baby says matter? He never met Vegetto.

I'm not saying he can't sense ki. But nothing says that he can, and he was never shown to sense Vegetto.

[RandomGuy96]

Show me where Old Kaioshin sensed Vegetto. Or anyone, for that matter.

SS3+ tier powers can be sensed from the Kaioshin Realm, Elder Kaioshin has zero reason to not be able to sense ki, and it's heavily implied that he can do so, since he's able to make power statements repeatedly.

That statement by Goku doesn't mean much though. He didn't even sense full power Buuhan, to say nothing of Vegetto.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

He has Vegeta's memory, and that guy was once part of Vegetto.

Young Kaioshin and Old Kaioshin are petty much the same people. Young Kaioshin was able to sense Super Saiyan 3 Goku spontaneously without even trying. And now, Old Kaioshin is actually watching/paying attention to Super Vegetto, someone multiple times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and he's not sensing him? How likely is that?

[Kamiccolo9]

He has Vegeta's memory, and that guy was once part of Vegetto.

Young Kaioshin and Old Kaioshin are the same people. Young Kaioshin was able to sense Super Saiyan 3 Goku spontaneously without even trying. And now, Old Kaioshin is actually watching/paying attention to Super Vegetto, someone multiple times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and he's not sensing him? How likely is that?

Vegeta never sensed Vegetto either, because, again, he did not exist at the same time.

Mr. Satan and Tenshinhan are the same species. This doesn't mean they have the same abilities.

And yet nobody sensed Gotenks like they did Goku. Only Buu sensed Gohan. Show me consistency, and I'll admit you have a point. As it stands, Old Kaioshin is never noted as sensing anyone, not just Vegetto.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

1. Proof Goku and Vegeta don't know how strong Vegetto is. They both have memories of being him, and I'm sure a fighter knows how strong he himself is, so I don't see why they couldn't remember that. Goten and Trunks were able to tell how strong Gotenks was even when separate.

2. So a god, who can unlock hidden potential, and feel that Gohan has a lot of hidden energy, can't sense someone who was multiple times stronger than someone else spontaneously sensed chapters before? Yeah there's no direct statement, but all of that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

SS3+ tier powers can be sensed from the Kaioshin Realm, Elder Kaioshin has zero reason to not be able to sense ki, and it's heavily implied that he can do so, since he's able to make power statements repeatedly.

That statement by Goku doesn't mean much though. He didn't even sense full power Buuhan, to say nothing of Vegetto.

Goku didn't sense full power Gohan-Buu?

[Kamiccolo9]

1. Proof Goku and Vegeta don't know how strong Vegetto is. They both have memories of being him, and I'm sure a fighter knows how strong he himself is, so I don't see why they couldn't remember that. Goten and Trunks were able to tell how strong Gotenks was even when separate.

2. So a god, who can unlock hidden potential, and feel that Gohan has a lot of hidden energy, can't sense someone who was multiple times stronger than someone else spontaneously sensed chapters before? Yeah there's no direct statement, but all of that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

You can't expect me to prove a negative. You have to prove that they did know. Especially seeing as Vegetto himself stated that he didn't know how strong he was.

And again, Goku used the exact same line when fighting Janemba, totally ignoring the fact that he himself was stronger than Janemba.

As for Baby's quote, you're assuming that he has total access to all Vegeta's memories (which is odd, especially considering your recent thread concerning Buu's knowledge of his absorbees' memories), which also makes the assumption that Vegeta himself is aware of how strong Vegetto was, which, again, is quite an assumption seeing as Vegetto himself was unaware of this, and was never in a position where he actually had to test his full power to find out.

He didn't feel that Gohan had a bunch of hidden energy, at least not until he started pulling it out.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.4-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”
Elder Kaioshin: “Still…I thought the person who’d pull that sword out and release me would be some Kaioshin…To think that it would be an Earthling…It’s the end of the world!”
Kaioshin: “My…my sincerest apologies…”

Nothing here about him sensing anything inside Gohan. Only that he would have to have a bunch of power if he was able to pull out the sword and swing it around.

So I ask you, prove that he can.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

You can't expect me to prove a negative. You have to prove that they did know. Especially seeing as Vegetto himself stated that he didn't know how strong he was.

So Goten and Trunks can remember how strong Gotenks was, yet Goku and Vegeta can't know how strong Vegetto was? Vegetto didn't say he didn't know how strong he was, he only said he didn't expect himself to be as strong as he was.

As for Baby's quote, you're assuming that he has total access to all Vegeta's memories

He used Vegeta's moves, which you need to remember a move to use it. There's also him calling Trunks by his name (unless he already knew Trunks' name prior to that, which I'm not aware of)

(which is odd, especially considering your recent thread concerning Buu's knowledge of his absorbees' memories)

And Super Buu and Baby Vegeta's cases are now the same case because?

which also makes the assumption that Vegeta himself is aware of how strong Vegetto was, which, again, is quite an assumption seeing as Vegetto himself was unaware of this, and was never in a position where he actually had to test his full power to find out.

He never said he didn't know how strong he was, only that he was surprised at how strong he had come out.

So I ask you, prove that he can.

Him saying Goku is the greatest ki he ever felt, meaning, at least in the GT universe, he can sense ki.
Here's my question: Who was he referring t?. Like you said we never see him sense anyone's ki. So was he talking about no one? Is this the greatest ki he's ever felt since this is his first time ever?

[Kamiccolo9]

You can't expect me to prove a negative. You have to prove that they did know. Especially seeing as Vegetto himself stated that he didn't know how strong he was.

So Goten and Trunks can remember how strong Gotenks was, yet Goku and Vegeta can't know how strong Vegetto was? Vegetto didn't say he didn't know how strong he was, he only said he didn't expect himself to be as strong as he was.

As for Baby's quote, you're assuming that he has total access to all Vegeta's memories

He used Vegeta's moves, which you need to remember a move to use it. There's also him calling Trunks by his name (unless he already knew Trunks' name prior to that, which I'm not aware of)

(which is odd, especially considering your recent thread concerning Buu's knowledge of his absorbees' memories)

And Super Buu and Baby Vegeta's cases are now the same case because?

which also makes the assumption that Vegeta himself is aware of how strong Vegetto was, which, again, is quite an assumption seeing as Vegetto himself was unaware of this, and was never in a position where he actually had to test his full power to find out.

He never said he didn't know how strong he was, only that he was surprised at how strong he had come out.

So I ask you, prove that he can.

Him saying Goku is the greatest ki he ever felt, meaning, at least in the GT universe, he can sense ki.
Here's my question: Who was he referring t?. Like you said we never see him sense anyone's ki. So was he talking about no one? Is this the greatest ki he's ever felt since this is his first time ever?

1. Gotenks and Vegetto are the products of different forms of fusion. You can't compare them, at least as far as this topic is concerned.
2. Note that I said "all." I'm not denying that he has access to some. But can you prove that he has every single bit of knowledge that Vegeta has? I don't think you can.
3. The cases are similar, yes.
4. He said that after he had been fighting. Why would he have been surprised if he had been immediately aware of how powerful he was?
5. Cool. Now prove that he sensed Vegetto. Because he's not noted as doing so. Nor is he shown to have sensed Gohan, Goku, Gotenks, any of the Buus, Vegeta, or anyone else. In the manga, there is nothing.

[Saiga]

Goku knew Vegetto was strong enough to finish Boo in one blow, which is really weird if he had none of Vegetto's memories and didn't know anything of the fight between Boohan and Vegetto.

There are so many different excuses and explanations you'd have to make up to defend Vegetto being on the level of a Super Saiyan 4.

[singsing]

Goku knew Vegetto was strong enough to finish Boo in one blow, which is really weird if he had none of Vegetto's memories and didn't know anything of the fight between Boohan and Vegetto.

There are so many different excuses and explanations you'd have to make up to defend Vegetto being on the level of a Super Saiyan 4.

Vegetto never coming close to using his full power?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Vegetto never coming close to using his full power?

He told Buu to make him use his full power (which could've been referring to SSJ 2 or 3), but he didn't say he wasn't using nowhere close to his full power. And we see him putting in effort against Gohan-Buu, so it's not like the gap is that huge.

[singsing]

Vegetto never coming close to using his full power?

He told Buu to make him use his full power (which could've been referring to SSJ 2 or 3), but he didn't say he wasn't using nowhere close to his full power. And we see him putting in effort against Gohan-Buu, so it's not like the gap is that huge.

Where?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Where?

I'm assuming you're asking where he was putting in effort?

Spoiler:

[Hugo Boss]

I read that entry as "Goku merging with Vegeta is perhaps better than him transforming into a SS4". So, if for some reason Goku intends to fuse with Vegeta via Potara, SS Vegetto could be stronger than SS4 Goku/SS4 Vegeta. Naturally, they can be stronger than they were against Gohan-Boo and it's possible that SS4 Goku from DBGT has surpassed Super Vegetto from DBZ.

About the Bebi-Vegeta's remark, I take it in relation to GT series itself only. Actually, I take every remark in that fashion within the context they are made. Bebi-Vegeta was then the strongest character since Goku had started his journey (grand tour) around the universe.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

It probably means Z Vegetto since he has appeared before in the series, there's no point in talking about a hypothetical character. Unless it's trying to say Potara Boost >= SSJ 4 boost, which could be a possibility. Either way, there is literally no reason for Baby Vegeta's comment to not include Vegetto. He said "greatest saiyan power" not "greatest saiyan power besides Vegetto"

[hleV]

Vegetto never coming close to using his full power?

He told Buu to make him use his full power (which could've been referring to SSJ 2 or 3), but he didn't say he wasn't using nowhere close to his full power. And we see him putting in effort against Gohan-Buu, so it's not like the gap is that huge.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that "putting effort" thing before Vegetto realized that Boo is actually a joke compare to him?

EDIT: Yes, it was. In fact those are the very first panels of Vegetto and Boo fighting. Seconds later we see Vegetto giving a smile and from that point on he knows he doesn't need to put effort. He was only serious at first (which is why he went SS), until he realized he's way (going by SEG, thousands times or so) more powerful than Boo.