The manga actually skips this bit altogether.
I’m not sure how strong Gogeta ends up being besides weaker than 100% Freeza, but I think he’s probably in the lower end and would end between 16 and Semi Cell with Kaio-Ken.
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The manga actually skips this bit altogether.
I’m not sure how strong Gogeta ends up being besides weaker than 100% Freeza, but I think he’s probably in the lower end and would end between 16 and Semi Cell with Kaio-Ken.
Ah you are right, if this is END of Namek Saga then Gogeta is SS1 level, with KKx20 yeah he can take anyone except maybe a couple of the very biggest Buu's
SSJ1 Vegito (Early Android arc) vs Buuhan: I think this match up easily goes to Buuhan. Vegetto was towering above his opponent during their fight but it's not like he wasn't putting effort in at several points to attack Buu. A fusion from this prior era might see a Vegetto who can defeat the SSJ2 level opponents, perhaps even the weaker SSJ3 standard ones but I wouldn't go much higher than that.
It's an interesting power dynamic when you think about the projections made for Goku and Freeza. One is a quarter amount superior overall to the other. How was Freeza able to muster up such an impressive resistance? I can only speculate that while the Super Saiyan transformation rejuvenated Goku's body and stamina it didn't return him to top physical shape. Perhaps in the midst of the actual fight his power level was something like 130-140 million. Freeza had also probably lost strength in the fighting leading up to that moment, most prominently when besieged by the Spirit Bomb, but it was likely nothing as what Goku was going through.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:50 pm SSJ Goku vs Freeza [100%]. How close do you see the fight? I see it as decently close. Goku was clearly superior and took the status of strongest from Freeza, but it was clearly competitive at some extent until Freeza's stamina began to fall. Goku didn't have an easy time.
1) If we assume base Vegito from the Buu arc was around SS3 Goku, then if he were on SS Vegeta's level from when Android 18 kicked his ass, he is not beating Buuhan with SS.
It was closer than what the official numbers implied, it was also closer in the anime, in the manga while it isn't a stomp, Goku's superiority is clearer.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:50 pm SSJ Goku vs Freeza [100%]. How close do you see the fight? I see it as decently close. Goku was clearly superior and took the status of strongest from Freeza, but it was clearly competitive at some extent until Freeza's stamina began to fall. Goku didn't have an easy time.
Buuhan one shots.
Because not everything on a fight are gaps. There are skill, technique and other things to consider. I'm sure Freeza's OP endurance made up for the gap between him and Goku.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:23 pm Yeah and you guys would agree too that Freeza was more impressive against ssj Goku than handsome Zarbon was to 24k Vegeta, right? Zarbon couldn't land a hand on Vegeta, while Freeza got in a decent few blows. If the Daizenshuu pegs Zarbon at 95% of Vegeta, I don't know why the team of Daiz distanced Goku and Freeza so much. Freeza also stated "he'd lose even more power" right after the sky went dark when he thought he was done with Goku.
It was said in Super that Freeza never trained in his life, so I'm not sure of what skills you're referring to. Freeza seems to have op endurance, but that for itself doesn't explain his performance of landing hits on Goku and having his attack almost stalemate the KMHMH. At the end of the fight Goku even suggested for Freeza, in case of a rematch, for him to polish his skills and better his stamina. Notice he mentions skills and not power... which goes the opposite way of your point. Vegeta could easily catch Zarbon's punch, throw him in mid-air, deflect his attack (albeit using a good deal of effort) and then punch him in the face, dodge easily all his kicks attempts, kick him to the ground and move so fast, speedblitz him and kick him into the mud. Zarbon landed a total of 0 hits. Vegeta didn't even mention Zarbon's skills, he just said it looked like Zarbon was standing still, clearly highlighting a speed deficit. I don't know why I'd interpret that, numerically, as closer than Goku and Freeza. If Zarbon were 90% of Vegeta, which I think it's fair, Freeza could very well be a 94% or so. Goku had the upper hand, but it was clearly closer than many other fights.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Fri Apr 29, 2022 3:15 pmBuuhan one shots.
Toppo finger flicks.
Caulifla. It appears based on Super Hero trailers, Piccolo is no stronger than current SS tier in his base form.
Gohan. At best I would have base Gogeta at SS tier. Edit: With Kaioken, Gogeta can win.
Krillin alone one shots him.
Because not everything on a fight are gaps. There are skill, technique and other things to consider. I'm sure Freeza's OP endurance made up for the gap between him and Goku.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:23 pm Yeah and you guys would agree too that Freeza was more impressive against ssj Goku than handsome Zarbon was to 24k Vegeta, right? Zarbon couldn't land a hand on Vegeta, while Freeza got in a decent few blows. If the Daizenshuu pegs Zarbon at 95% of Vegeta, I don't know why the team of Daiz distanced Goku and Freeza so much. Freeza also stated "he'd lose even more power" right after the sky went dark when he thought he was done with Goku.
I would agree that the 150 vs. 120 gap is far too large. I always viewed it as a 150 vs. 140 gap with Frieza's power eventually dropping to 120 once his stamina tanked completely. Frieza was capable of pushing back Goku's full powered Kamehameha with his Nova Strike and still traded blows back and forth with SSJ Goku even after admitting that his stamina had fallen after using the Nova Strike. Goku still had a clear edge since he withstood Frieza's initial beating with minimal damage, easily countered Frieza's blindside attack, and Frieza questioned if Goku was a zombie after taking a direct hit from his Nova Strike. However, the gap definitely isn't that large. I always thought 140 vs. 150 was appropriate.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:23 pm Yeah and you guys would agree too that Freeza was more impressive against ssj Goku than handsome Zarbon was to 24k Vegeta, right? Zarbon couldn't land a hand on Vegeta, while Freeza got in a decent few blows. If the Daizenshuu pegs Zarbon at 95% of Vegeta, I don't know why the team of Daiz distanced Goku and Freeza so much. Freeza also stated "he'd lose even more power" right after the sky went dark when he thought he was done with Goku.
Chaozu (Buu arc) vs Pui Pui
Majuub (Baby saga; Kaioken x10) vs SSJ4 Goku
Hit (manga U6 Tournament arc) vs #17 (TOP manga)
He keeps getting multiple power ups throughout the arc, but diidn't SS3 Goku get one shot by Saganbo on Namek? Saganbo was also manhandling Gohan and 17 so this one's pretty clear cut.SSJ3 Goku (Moro arc) vs Saganbo (powered up by Moro)
Team A might pull this off since all of them are fighters and got the androids beat on skills and techniques.Lionel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Let me try some more versus match ups.
Super Kaioken Goku (Android arc but healthy; maintainable), Majin Vegeta (Android arc), Piccolo (post Kami fusion), SSJ Trunks (Android arc) and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs #16, #17, and #18
Chaozu (Buu arc) vs Pui Pui
Majuub (Baby saga; Kaioken x10) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
Hit (manga U6 Tournament arc) vs #17 (TOP manga)
SSJ3 Goku (Moro arc) vs Saganbo (powered up by Moro)
Made some clarification edits
The Hit versus #17 match is based on their manga renditions, both of them. About Saganbo, I guess my interpretation must be radically different since it seemed like Goku's blue form was pummelling Saganbo and the red form may have proved too much also.ZombieVito wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:14 pmTeam A might pull this off since all of them are fighters and got the androids beat on skills and techniques.Lionel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Let me try some more versus match ups.
Super Kaioken Goku (Android arc but healthy; maintainable), Majin Vegeta (Android arc), Piccolo (post Kami fusion), SSJ Trunks (Android arc) and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs #16, #17, and #18
Chaozu (Buu arc) vs Pui Pui
Majuub (Baby saga; Kaioken x10) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
Hit (manga U6 Tournament arc) vs #17 (TOP manga)
SSJ3 Goku (Moro arc) vs Saganbo (powered up by Moro)
Made some clarification edits
I actually have them at a comparable level (Below 2nd Form Freeza). I give this to Chaoz because of skill.
Goku.
17 one shots since he's Blue tier. Manga Hit was really pathetic in the U6 arc.
Didn't Sanganbo beat Ultimate Gohan? How can SS3 Goku beat someone at high Blue tier?
Super Kaioken Goku (Android arc but healthy; maintainable), Majin Vegeta (Android arc), Piccolo (post Kami fusion), SSJ Trunks (Android arc) and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs #16, #17, and #18: I would say Team B definitely takes this. I view Android 16 as the strongest competitor in this space. He would be more than capable of battling Goku by himself. Furthermore, Majin Vegeta shouldn't really be that much stronger than how he was in the Android Saga as his strength had already plateau'd. Android 17 should be capable of fighting Piccolo and overcoming him through infinite stamina, Android 16 should be able to overpower Goku, and Android 18 can fight the other Super Saiyans. Tenshinhan is really a nonfactor here.Lionel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Let me try some more versus match ups.
Super Kaioken Goku (Android arc but healthy; maintainable), Majin Vegeta (Android arc), Piccolo (post Kami fusion), SSJ Trunks (Android arc) and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs #16, #17, and #18
Chaozu (Buu arc) vs Pui Pui
Majuub (Baby saga; Kaioken x10) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
Hit (manga U6 Tournament arc) vs #17 (TOP manga)
SSJ3 Goku (Moro arc) vs Saganbo (powered up by Moro)
Made some clarification edits
Gohan-Boo finger clicks. Vegetto might be a giant next to Boo, but the gap is nowhere near as big as that between Boo Saga and Android Saga Goku.
I think it was a pretty even fight. I’ve seen people interpret the official numbers in several ways: Maybe the gaps are inconsistent, maybe Goku held back, maybe the fight was a stomp. I’d disagree with all of these ideas though. The fight is fairly quick, but when they finally get to a straight hand to hand combat Freeza holds his own fairly well, even though he’d already been weakened by the Nova Strike. Goku considered it a good fight too, so I doubt he held back.Mireya wrote: ↑Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:50 pm SSJ Goku vs Freeza [100%]. How close do you see the fight? I see it as decently close. Goku was clearly superior and took the status of strongest from Freeza, but it was clearly competitive at some extent until Freeza's stamina began to fall. Goku didn't have an easy time.
The team wins. I think this ends up being overkill: Goku and Vegeta would easily end up above the Androids (Though Vegeta’s power is unquantifiable since Babidi’s power up is a potential unlock, though he should at the very least rival 18 with it), and Tenshinhan can immobilize the androids and maybe even kill them. The twins would be disposed of fairly quickly, and unless they let their egos guide them 16 should be disposed of with a good team attack.Lionel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:10 pm Let me try some more versus match ups.
Super Kaioken Goku (Android arc but healthy; maintainable), Majin Vegeta (Android arc), Piccolo (post Kami fusion), SSJ Trunks (Android arc) and Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho) vs #16, #17, and #18
Chaozu (Buu arc) vs Pui Pui
Majuub (Baby saga; Kaioken x10) vs SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
Hit (manga U6 Tournament arc) vs #17 (TOP manga)
SSJ3 Goku (Moro arc) vs Saganbo (powered up by Moro)
Made some clarification edits
Yes, I know. 17 is Blue tier in the manga as well. Edit: Wait. 17 is actually perfected Blue tier lmao. He finger flicks U6 Hit.