Pure Boo > Evil Boo or vice versa?

[Nazi Cola]

Yeah, it's really that simple.
The problem with Super < Pure is that it overcomplicates things, because you have to resort to making up a lot of stuff to justify it.
For example Goku's admission of inferiority is attributed to a lot of made up stuff instead of what he actually says.
It's because he was small, it's because he was handicapped it's because yadda yadda yadda.

Why can't it simply be because he's weaker than this form of Buu and needs fusion or merging to win, which is the only thing that's ever said?

Because South Kaioshin "just couldn't" give Kid Boo that much of a boost in power. It's just not "logical". Herp derp.

[Metrite]

South Kaioshin not being able to significantly increase Buu's power is based on nothing more than fan logic, fact is he did.

And that is a good example of "it just has to be because I just know my side is right". lol A debate about that would probably go like this: "Since Goku was scared of Evil Buu, it means that Pure Buu just has to be way weaker which means that South Kaioshin had to have made Buu way stronger regardless of the evidence". Meanwhile somebody else could just turn that on its head and say, "Goku's line in Buu had to be in reference to their situation because the fact that the Kaioshins were so weak and Buff Buu was stronger than Evil Buu means that Pure Buu is on par with Evil Buu at least". Then the other person says, "Saying Goku was referencing their situation is a real example of making stuff up, South Kaioshin giving Buu a huge power boost isn't". Then the response is, "I think insisting that Buu getting a huge power boost from somebody implied in every way to be so week is a better example of making things up, and there is the fact that Goku's actions outside Buu show he was willing to fight Gotenks Buu under normal circumstances which speaks louder than his words under unusual circumstances". "Well, it is not Goku's actions that should be taken seriously in this case but his words because [insert reasons]". "I disagree because [insert reasons]". "well, I think that's wrong because [insert reasons]". "That's not right because [insert reasons]". "Well you're mistaken because [insert reasons]". And the cycle continues for all eternity... Pretty much everybody already has their mind made up and so will stick with and insist it must be the one and only correct view regardless of the only real fact being that a person's own interpretation of a story will always be up to himself.

[Chou Gohan]

lol It makes me wonder why people have ever made up fake quotes from Toriyama or wondered if he ever really gave an answer when it is obvious that wouldn't make a difference for anybody.
Me: Which of Buu's forms was the strongest?
Toriyama: Buu had multiple forms?
Me: Yeah, there was this one and this one and this one and this one and this one.
Toriyama: Oh yeah. Let's see... They fought this one last, right? So it must have been the strongest form.
Me: What?!?! There's no way that can be right!!! That Buu can't be the strongest because BLABLABLABLABLABLA!!!
Toriyama: Well, it seems clear that you have already made up your mind about which one was the strongest, so why in the world are you asking me?!

[jjgp1112]

When is the South Supreme Kai implied to be so pathetically weak, pray tell? Kibito Kai mentions that South Supreme Kai was the strongest of them all and got absorbed, and nothing more. You can make multiple implications of his strength from that. Maybe he gave Buu a hard time and Buu decided to absorb him? Who knows. But logic and the stuff in the story presented seems to support that the South Supreme Kai gave Kid Buu a pretty big boost. If Super Buu is already stronger than Kid Buu, even with him now having all of the access to Buff Buu's power...then yeah.

I mean, I don't know how else you can interpret Goku saying, "We can't beat Buu like this" without having to make leaps in logic. He insists on fusing with Vegeta. You can't use Goku deciding to rush into battle after being revived as an excuse for that, because it can just be simple hotheadedness given what we see later. And the fact that he's immediately complaint with Old Kai should show you something right there. I mean, the Old Kai TELLS him he doesn't stand a chance right there and Goku's reaction is basically, "Oh yeah, that's right...WE'LL FUSE, THEN!"

Not to mention, Goku basically shits his pants when Super Buu realizes he and Vegeta can't fuse.

[Chou Gohan]

I think the whole point was that that wouldn't matter to you because you already made up your mind, just like Toriyama's answer wouldn't matter to me because I already made up my mind.

[hleV]

I think the whole point was that that wouldn't matter to you because you already made up your mind, just like Toriyama's answer wouldn't matter to me because I already made up my mind.

Why wouldn't you make your mind if it's the most logical explanation? If there are good arguments to be heard, the opinion may very well change.

[Fox666]

When is the South Supreme Kai implied to be so pathetically weak, pray tell? Kibito Kai mentions that South Supreme Kai was the strongest of them all and got absorbed, and nothing more. You can make multiple implications of his strength from that. Maybe he gave Buu a hard time and Buu decided to absorb him? Who knows. But logic and the stuff in the story presented seems to support that the South Supreme Kai gave Kid Buu a pretty big boost. If Super Buu is already stronger than Kid Buu, even with him now having all of the access to Buff Buu's power...then yeah.

It depends on how Boo absorption works.

When Goku asked Gohan to fuse with him, Gotenks-absorbed Evil Boo said it would have no use against him. Of Course Piccolo has never seen the Potara before, so Boo estimated it based on a metamorian fusion.

So Boo absorption should be at least as good as a metamorian fusion. Of course we don't know exactly how the metamorian fusion works.

[Chou Gohan]

Why wouldn't you make your mind if it's the most logical explanation?

Because logic and Dragon Ball don't mix? And it really never does seem to be a matter of logic. It always seems to be a matter of I-already-made-my-mind-up-and-nothing-will-change-that!

[hleV]

Why wouldn't you make your mind if it's the most logical explanation?

Because logic and Dragon Ball don't mix?

Why? It's not like we're applying a real world logic here, we're applying DB logic.

And it really never does seem to be a matter of logic. It always seems to be a matter of I-already-made-my-mind-up-and-nothing-will-change-that!

I disagree. I've changed my mind regarding this matter a few times, and am still open to arguments.

Anyway, there was an argument about Pure Boo's Kamehameha having no effect on Goku's Genki-dama, yet Boo later manages to fight it back with his bare hands. One might think that that's when Pure Boo shown his true power, but this seemed to have gotten dismissed as the Kamehameha didn't seem to be well-charged to be comparable to Boo's physical strength.

[Nazi Cola]

What I find I see a lot is people underestimating the gap between Fat Boo and Super Boo because it was never stated that there was a huge gap between them. My response is to use the implications of Gotenks' strength and then tell me there isn't a large gap, so then they're forced to make Gotenks weak as crap when, personally, I can't see that being the case at all.

SSj Gotenks: 100
Fat Boo: 100
SSj Gotenks (post-RoSaT): 101
SSj3 Goku: 120
SSj3 Gotenks: 202

Even ignoring the "huge" power-up Gotenks got in the RoSaT (as a lot of people arguing for Kid Boo do, at least on a particular forum I frequent) and giving him a miniscule 2x Super Saiyan 3 multiplier, SSj3 Gotenks would end up 68% stronger than SSj3 Goku, and thus, Super Boo would be around 68% stronger than Kid Boo. That's just fan-made numbers and differences, though, so yeah.

I also see those people adamant that both Dai and South Kaioshin weakened Boo, when it's explained in Daizenshuu #7 that only Dai Kaioshin did. This is where the whole "Viz >>>>>>> any other translation" thing comes from, because the Viz translation apparently states that both weakened him somehow, while Herms' translation doesn't? I dunno.

I just agree that it takes quite a few stretches and leaps to make Kid Boo stronger.

[dbgtFO]

Why wouldn't you make your mind if it's the most logical explanation?

Because logic and Dragon Ball don't mix? And it really never does seem to be a matter of logic. It always seems to be a matter of I-already-made-my-mind-up-and-nothing-will-change-that!

Not true. When I came to Daizex I was a Super < Pure supporter. This can be seen in some of my earliest posts.

Anyway, there was an argument about Pure Boo's Kamehameha having no effect on Goku's Genki-dama, yet Boo later manages to fight it back with his bare hands. One might think that that's when Pure Boo shown his true power, but this seemed to have gotten dismissed as the Kamehameha didn't seem to be well-charged to be comparable to Boo's physical strength.

That argument was shot down, because if he really had some extra power that was beyond what Goku and Vegeta had previously witnessed, you'd think they'd talk about it as the reason for why the Genkidama wasn't destroying Buu, instead of the focus being on Goku having diminished strength.

In other words, they didn't underestimate Buu, they underestimated Goku's loss of stamina.

I also see those people adamant that both Dai and South Kaioshin weakened Boo, when it's explained in Daizenshuu #7 that only Dai Kaioshin did. This is where the whole "Viz >>>>>>> any other translation" thing comes from, because the Viz translation apparently states that both weakened him somehow, while Herms' translation doesn't? I dunno.

Yeah, in the original it becomes much clearer; Majin Buu was pure Evil until he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, so Dai Kaioshin was the only one who gave him a heart and thus lowered his power.

But let's assume that Goku really was stronger than Super Buu and that he said those things, because of whatever reason we can come up with.
Everything goes like normal until Goku is getting ready to fight Buu and he lets Vegeta in on a little known fact: He could have beaten Fat Buu, if he wanted to!!..
...Wait what?

He's stronger than Super Buu, but he doesn't feel it's worth mentioning, that he actually could defeat him contrary to, what he told Vegeta(and the audience) earlier meaning that statement still stands and he decides to only mention Fat Buu becauseSHUTUP?

Just one of the many problems I have with the proposition.

[Metrite]

I guess it all comes down to this: Did Goku have any credibility at all during the Buu saga? If so, how do you decide what actions/words were credible and which ones were not? Goku says and does things that contradict each other every other page. Would it be better to just disregard everything related to Goku? It would certainly go much better because then you wouldn't have to deal with any conflicting points at all.Then again, the most awesome thing about this has to be the picking and choosing. One side will pick certain points and try to explain away all the conflicting points claiming, "It is the only logical conclusion and anybody that says otherwise is stretching things far more than us," without just accepting the fact that every last view on this stuff stretches different things and who does the most stretching is a complete matter of opinion. I see people all the time that will do something like use the Daizenshuus to try and claim one thing but will later on dismiss them when a different point is brought up from them that disagrees with something else.

[Nazi Cola]

I also see those people adamant that both Dai and South Kaioshin weakened Boo, when it's explained in Daizenshuu #7 that only Dai Kaioshin did. This is where the whole "Viz >>>>>>> any other translation" thing comes from, because the Viz translation apparently states that both weakened him somehow, while Herms' translation doesn't? I dunno.

Yeah, in the original it becomes much clearer; Majin Buu was pure Evil until he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, so Dai Kaioshin was the only one who gave him a heart and thus lowered his power.

But let's assume that Goku really was stronger than Super Buu and that he said those things, because of whatever reason we can come up with.
Everything goes like normal until Goku is getting ready to fight Buu and he lets Vegeta in on a little known fact: He could have beaten Fat Buu, if he wanted to!!..
...Wait what?

He's stronger than Super Buu, but he doesn't feel it's worth mentioning, that he actually could defeat him contrary to, what he told Vegeta(and the audience) earlier meaning that statement still stands and he decides to only mention Fat Buu becauseSHUTUP?

Just one of the many problems I have with the proposition.

Because Fat Boo was the source of all the problems so he trumps Super Boo in importance. Jokes aside, that's a good point that I'd never thought of.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Remember that vegeta said goku is the only one who can fight with pure boo
goku wanted gohan AND gotenks to fight pure buu
instead of saying "gohan will", goku decided to train to face pure buu again if he has to.
goku even admitted he had underestimated pure buu and that he was toying with them.

[Kaboom]

By that point, Gotenks and Gohan had proven themselves all but unreliable in spite of their power. Especially Gohan.

[Silver Sinspawn]

I think, putting it bluntly, the kai's he absorbed were like ADD meds to Kid Buu. Absorbing them calmed him, and gave him a level head.The same can be said for absorbing Gohan and Piccolo, and Gotenks. I think he remains constantly at the same power, but he becomes more unstable without these restrictors. Then again, the restrictors allowed him to formulate plans and shit, whereas Kid Buu was just raging everywhere, and not restricting it. I think with the restrictors, he knew he might accidentally destroy himself, whereas without, he was just like "fuck it", and went ape shit.

[GreggMays64]

Dai Booshin (Good)
Dai Booshin (Evil)
Super Boo
Bootenks
Boocollo
Boohan
Kid Boo
South Booshin

So when Majin Boo absorbed South Kaioshin, he became weaker due to him well being a Kaioshin. When he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, he well still became weaker as once again, he's a Kaioshin. The difference this time is that the Dai Kaioshin gave him a second personality that was pure. The original personality that is toned down from his absorptions like all of his other absorbtions is hidden within this Boo's body. He came out of his own body as the gray Majin Boo who was most of Dai Booshin (Good)'s power. If their powers combined are less than Kid Boo, than that would mean Dai Booshin (Evil) alone would be weaker.

Kid Boo is based Majin Boo with no absorptions, Super Boo is Majin Boo WITH absorptions. When Dai Booshin (Evil) ate Dai Booshin (Good), he not only got his body back, but got a taller and smarter version of his original form due to the absorptions via Dai Booshin (Good). That all Dai Booshin (Good) was good for was to give him his type of body back. He may be a stronger version of Dai Booshin (Good) + Dai Booshin (Evil), but he still has Kaioshin influences that holds him back. So the Super Boo you see before he absorbs a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo is weaker than Kid Boo. The Super Boo (I am not talking about Boohan) with Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten inside his body is the only time he would have a chance against Kid Boo. But other than that, Bootenks, and Boohan are the only forms stronger than Kid Boo. Boocollo is the only Z-Fighter absorbed Boo who would lose to Kid Boo.

By removing Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten, Super Boo got weaker. By removing Dai Booshin (Good), he got stronger simply because that Majin Boo has Kaioshin influences. When Majin Boo was becoming muscular, that was NOT South Booshin was the South Kaioshin was inside of Dai Booshin (Good) who just got removed. Also, Kid Boo was most likely toying the whole time but the Genki Dama part. Kid Boo had a few hits from Dai Booshin (Good), yet Dai Booshin (Evil) didn't. Goku (SS3) has been stated he could take Dai Booshin (Good) when Dai Booshin (Evil) was still inside of him. Goku (SS3) was barely equal to Kid Boo. Kid Boo hit Mr. Satan to the point that he didn't even kill him.

Boohan > Bootenks > Kid Boo > South Booshin > Boocollo > Super Boo > Dai Booshin (Evil) > Dai Booshin (Good)

As for the heroes.

Goku (SS3) > Gohan > Gotenks (SS3) > Majin Vegeta (SS2) >

Goku was bluffing when he told Dai Booshin (Good) that a stronger fighter would appear. Like the poster of this thread said, Goku was scared he would remain tiny if he left. Super Boo even comments that his attack barely did jack when trying to break out of him.

[FNF]

Dai Booshin (Good)
Dai Booshin (Evil)
Super Boo
Bootenks
Boocollo
Boohan
Kid Boo
South Booshin

So when Majin Boo absorbed South Kaioshin, he became weaker due to him well being a Kaioshin. When he absorbed Dai Kaioshin, he well still became weaker as once again, he's a Kaioshin. The difference this time is that the Dai Kaioshin gave him a second personality that was pure. The original personality that is toned down from his absorptions like all of his other absorbtions is hidden within this Boo's body. He came out of his own body as the gray Majin Boo who was most of Dai Booshin (Good)'s power. If their powers combined are less than Kid Boo, than that would mean Dai Booshin (Evil) alone would be weaker.

Kid Boo is based Majin Boo with no absorptions, Super Boo is Majin Boo WITH absorptions. When Dai Booshin (Evil) ate Dai Booshin (Good), he not only got his body back, but got a taller and smarter version of his original form due to the absorptions via Dai Booshin (Good). That all Dai Booshin (Good) was good for was to give him his type of body back. He may be a stronger version of Dai Booshin (Good) + Dai Booshin (Evil), but he still has Kaioshin influences that holds him back. So the Super Boo you see before he absorbs a Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Piccolo is weaker than Kid Boo. The Super Boo (I am not talking about Boohan) with Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten inside his body is the only time he would have a chance against Kid Boo. But other than that, Bootenks, and Boohan are the only forms stronger than Kid Boo. Boocollo is the only Z-Fighter absorbed Boo who would lose to Kid Boo.

By removing Piccolo, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten, Super Boo got weaker. By removing Dai Booshin (Good), he got stronger simply because that Majin Boo has Kaioshin influences. When Majin Boo was becoming muscular, that was NOT South Booshin was the South Kaioshin was inside of Dai Booshin (Good) who just got removed. Also, Kid Boo was most likely toying the whole time but the Genki Dama part. Kid Boo had a few hits from Dai Booshin (Good), yet Dai Booshin (Evil) didn't. Goku (SS3) has been stated he could take Dai Booshin (Good) when Dai Booshin (Evil) was still inside of him. Goku (SS3) was barely equal to Kid Boo. Kid Boo hit Mr. Satan to the point that he didn't even kill him.

Boohan > Bootenks > Kid Boo > South Booshin > Boocollo > Super Boo > Dai Booshin (Evil) > Dai Booshin (Good)

As for the heroes.

Goku (SS3) > Gohan > Gotenks (SS3) > Majin Vegeta (SS2) >

Goku was bluffing when he told Dai Booshin (Good) that a stronger fighter would appear. Like the poster of this thread said, Goku was scared he would remain tiny if he left. Super Boo even comments that his attack barely did jack when trying to break out of him.

Dude, I don't even want to get into how wrong you are.

Edit: Meh, might as well post this;

I would like to point out a couple of quotes cementing Evil Buu>Goku & Gotenks>Goku;

Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him.
Piccolo: "N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own"

SSjin3 Gotenks is suggested to be levels above SSjin3 Goku ("strong like you")



Context: after Gotenks is absorbed by Evil Buu.
Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Evil Buu remembered SSjin3 Goku and even hinted that he knew that SSjin3 Goku>Fat Buu;

Context: after Goku Kienzans Gotenks-Buu
Boo: “…What, did you plan on coming to save everyone? You idiot…Can’t you tell that I’m in a fundamentally different dimension than the Majin Boo from back then?”

Gotenks-Buu>>SSjin3 Gotenks>Evil Buu>>>SSjin3 Goku.

Not to mention SSjin Gotenks (pre RoSaT) already being stronger/equal to SSjin3 Goku.

Goku can kill Pure Buu at full power with a charged Ki blast, Goku can't do anything against Evil Buu etc.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Based on manga info, I conclude into this:

Majin Boo (Good) < Majin Boo (Pure Evil) < Majin Boo (Innocent) < Majin Boo (Pure) < Majin Boo (Evil) < Majin Boo (Piccolo only) < Majin Boo (Piccolo, Goten, Trunks) < Majin Boo (South Kaioshin) < Majin Boo (Gotenks) < Majin Boo (Gohan)

[GreggMays64]

Not to mention SSjin Gotenks (pre RoSaT) already being stronger/equal to SSjin3 Goku.

Goku can kill Pure Buu at full power with a charged Ki blast, Goku can't do anything against Evil Buu etc.

Where does it mention that SS Gotenks is stronger than SS3 Goku? Goku is referring to his size the whole time.

Kid Boo was overpowering the genki dama that had Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Piccolo, GOHAN, Trunks, Goten as well as all of the namekians, the kai's, just about everyone else's energy. So Kid Boo > Genki Dama (Before Goku's strength was wished back) > Full Powered Ki Blast from Goku. Plus, Goku told Vegeta that he wished he would have fused.

Goku never fought that Majin Boo before. He was merely afraid of remaining tiny. His ki blast in base form couldn't get him free, yet a bullet could penetrate him. Goku was a lot weaker when he became tiny, and so did Vegeta. If Gohan was truly stronger, they would have ripped him out of the cocoon and wait for him to wake up. Becoming Vegetto was their only option, simply because Vegetto is overpowered to the point that he whipped the strongest Boo's ass as a jawbreaker.

Plus, Goku wasn't even going all out on Fat Boo, so Majin Boo never knew what it was like to fight a fully powered SS3 Goku. SS3 Goku told him that a stronger fighter will appear, and Majin Boo in general bought it.