Vegeta & Trunks, what the hell have you been doing...

[Hitiro]

No, since they were never meant to be the ones to defeat Cell so fssj or not, so even if they did manage to reach FPSSJ, they still would have been made weaker than Goku and Gohan.
The whole point of that part was to show how much more powerfull Goku and Gohan had become.

What I meant is if anything was going to be clarified, such as Vegeta and Trunks obtaining FPSSJ then AT would have given them a bigger role or more panel time to clarify that they had achieved it. But Vegeta has already admitted it was smart of Goku to make SSJ the most efficient fighting form, so why would Vegeta disregard this when he entered the ROSAT? If we want to talk about clarifying things about characters that were clearly brushed aside to put Goku and Gohan in the spotlight at the Cell Games then what about Piccolo? At the time, if you consider Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta are all in their base forms, he is the strongest Z-Fighter. He also went into the ROSAT and we don't hear any indications of his strength in relation to Vegeta or Trunks, we know the Saiyan's had surpassed him with their SSJ strength after the ROSAT training yet we don't need AT to clarify this because its obvious. Vegeta and Trunks aren't stupid enough to not do something so advantageous as make SSJ their most efficient fighting form. Vegeta can talk about pride till the cows come home but he will do whatever it takes to surpass Goku, even if its to follow the same route of training as he did. Establishing whether Vegeta and Trunks obtained FPSSJ wouldn't have made any impact on the story really, if they did achieve it, which I reckon they did, then that wouldn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things. FPSSJ isn't something that gives you a godly power boost like the Graded forms or the later SSJ forms, if they had achieved it they would have only been given extra stamina. The rest would be down to Vegeta and Trunks actually training to be as powerful as Goku or Gohan, so I don't really see why AT should go pointing out "Hey guys! Vegeta and Trunks have increased their stamina in SSJ! Isn't that something?!"

The thing is, at that point, the focus was all on Goku, so whether or not Vegeta and/or Trunks had become Full-Power Super Saiyans was irrelevant or unimportant to the story. They wouldn't have even fought if Cell hadn't spawned and subsequently set the Cell Juniors loose on them. Goku and Gohan were much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks whether or not they achieved FPSSj. And once the focus on Goku had been taken off, it was immediately shifted to Gohan, who was even stronger than Goku.

There's no "clearing-up" needed in the story because Toriyama probably didn't care about it or it just didn't fit into the story. Hitiro's point about Goku and Vegeta's SSj2 is right because, yes, while it was established that Goku and Vegeta had surpassed Gohan since he'd been slacking off, it was never explicitly stated and only became relatively relevant when they clearly transformed into SSj2s and began fighting. That's when, at that point, the spotlight was on Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. At the Cell Games, for Vegeta and Trunks, not so much.

Kind of cut off Daimao on the other page so I thought I would include his comment which is basically the same point I'm trying to make.

[Michsi]

What I meant is if anything was going to be clarified, such as Vegeta and Trunks obtaining FPSSJ then AT would have given the a bigger role or more panel time to clarify that they had achieved it.

What I'm getting here is that you mean that they DID achieve FPSSJ but AT is keeping it a secret from the fans so as not to have them expect anything from Vegeta and Trunks?

But Vegeta has already admitted it was smart of Goku to make SSJ the most efficient fighting form, so why would Vegeta disregard this when he entered the ROSAT

I already said , that I don't believe he disregarded it but simply that he hadn't managed to achieve that level where he could make use of the ssj form as Goku could.

If we want to talk about clarifying things about characters that were clearly brushed aside to put Goku and Gohan in the spotlight at the Cell Games then what about Piccolo?

No that is another unclear situation. While I don't think he is stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, I doubt he is that much weaker than them too. But that's another debate.

Basically, the only argument here is, that there is nothing to disprove it, so it must be right, while I'm saying it would be better to have genuine proof to claim this.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What I meant is if anything was going to be clarified, such as Vegeta and Trunks obtaining FPSSJ then AT would have given the a bigger role or more panel time to clarify that they had achieved it.

What I'm getting here is that you mean that they DID achieve FPSSJ but AT is keeping it a secret from the fans so as not to have them expect anything from Vegeta and Trunks?

You're twisting his words. Toriyama wouldn't be keeping anything a secret from the fans so as not to have them expect anything from Vegeta and Trunks. It wasn't important or relevant to the plot, therefore it wasn't mentioned. The focus was on Goku and Gohan, with minor background attention being given to Vegeta and Trunks as part of the Z-Warriors who were fighting the Cell Juniors.

And even if Toriyama did mention that they were FPSSjs, where would he fit it in?

"The day of the Cell Games has finally arrived. And oh, btw, Vegeta and Trunks are FPSSjs now, like Goku and Gohan. But they're still useless against Cell anyway."

[Senzu_Bean]

And even if Toriyama did mention that they were FPSSjs, where would he fit it in?

Maybe before Goku fights Cell? It is kinda weird that if Vegeta indeed accomplished what Goku did he doesn't try to boost his superiority over his and actually remains at a corner fully certain that Goku is stronger than him. It would really be the only instance that someone has a technique/transformation/etc. yet isn't stated. Even Piccolo was remarked to be on a whole new level than before. Vegeta & Trunks? Nothing. And in the risk of sound like a broken record the only official word on this says Trunks & Vegeta didn't accomplished what Goku & Gohan did.

[Michsi]

What I meant is if anything was going to be clarified, such as Vegeta and Trunks obtaining FPSSJ then AT would have given the a bigger role or more panel time to clarify that they had achieved it.

What I'm getting here is that you mean that they DID achieve FPSSJ but AT is keeping it a secret from the fans so as not to have them expect anything from Vegeta and Trunks?

You're twisting his words. Toriyama wouldn't be keeping anything a secret from the fans so as not to have them expect anything from Vegeta and Trunks. It wasn't important or relevant to the plot, therefore it wasn't mentioned. The focus was on Goku and Gohan, with minor background attention being given to Vegeta and Trunks as part of the Z-Warriors who were fighting the Cell Juniors.

And even if Toriyama did mention that they were FPSSjs, where would he fit it in?

"The day of the Cell Games has finally arrived. And oh, btw, Vegeta and Trunks are FPSSjs now, like Goku and Gohan. But they're still useless against Cell anyway."

No I'm not, it's what I understood from his statement. That if the author made it clear that the did achieve FPSSJ, they should have been given a bigger role in the Cell Games. But the fact is that he didn't. This was meant as a contra-argument to my oppinion that if Vegeta and Trunks were FPSSJ it would have been made clear.

And even if Toriyama did mention that they were FPSSjs, where would he fit it in?

I could probably find a thousand and one ideas to fit it in the story. Just at the top of my head, have Trunks and Vegeta be in SSJ form while the waiting for the Cell games to start.

[Hitiro]

No I'm not, it's what I understood from his statement. That if the author made it clear that the did achieve FPSSJ, they should have been given a bigger role in the Cell Games. But the fact is that he didn't. This was meant as a contra-argument to my oppinion that if Vegeta and Trunks were FPSSJ it would have been made clear.

Why? Attaining FPSSJ just means that they could fight for longer, but Cell is so strong at this point, what would the extra stamina attain? If they're going to get beaten outright then that stamina is useless because it will be beaten out of them. If Vegeta or Trunks had obtained a new level of strength which is higher than Goku and Gohan then yeah, AT should be mentioning something like that, but FPSSJ wouldn't influence the battle between Vegeta and Cell for instance unless Vegeta and Cell were evenly matched in strength. The giving or not giving of FPSSJ to Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't have made their role bigger or smaller.

[Michsi]

Why? Attaining FPSSJ just means that they could fight for longer, but Cell is so strong at this point, what would the extra stamina attain? If they're going to get beaten outright then that stamina is useless because it will be beaten out of them. If Vegeta or Trunks had obtained a new level of strength which is higher than Goku and Gohan then yeah, AT should be mentioning something like that, but FPSSJ wouldn't influence the battle between Vegeta and Cell for instance unless Vegeta and Cell were evenly matched in strength. The giving or not giving of FPSSJ to Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't have made their role bigger or smaller.

It doesn't matter if they attained it eitherway, but one cannot just claim they can, because they should without an once a evidence in their favour. If that's your oppinion, that's okay, but if others don't believe so, well, there isn't really anything to have them change their mind.
We also know that Vegeta's form against Cell was less effective, but after training in the Rosat, he still powers up in that form. Why didn't he try a different approach, especially since we find out through Trunks, that he even was aware of the faults of that form. He (and Trunks) apparently failed to find a better way to improve their ssj, it can be just as likely they failed to reach FPSSJ.

[Hitiro]

Why didn't he try a different approach, especially since we find out through Trunks, that he even was aware of the faults of that form. He (and Trunks) apparently failed to find a better way to improve their ssj, it can be just as likely they failed to reach FPSSJ.

That is a silly assumption, how could they fail to achieve FPSSJ? There is nothing difficult about obtaining it. All you have to do is stand around for 3 or 4 months keeping up the SSJ transformation. In fact if Vegeta and Trunks were going to find another way then leaving SSJ on while they do such a thing would be killing two birds with one stone. There would be no problem for them to maintain the SSJ transformation in the ROSAT for most of the year while they experimented with different ways to boost their output. Even if they do fail at finding another way of improving their SSJ form by the end of their training they would have achieved FPSSJ by just keeping up the SSJ transformation.

[Michsi]

That is a silly assumption, how could they fail to achieve FPSSJ? There is nothing difficult about obtaining it. All you have to do is stand around for 3 or 4 months keeping up the SSJ transformation. In fact if Vegeta and Trunks were going to find another way then leaving SSJ on while they do such a thing would be killing two birds with one stone. There would be no problem for them to maintain the SSJ transformation in the ROSAT for most of the year while they experimented with different ways to boost their output. Even if they do fail at finding another way of improving their SSJ form by the end of their training they would have achieved FPSSJ by just keeping up the SSJ transformation.

Well I find this assumption way sillier. For all we know, being able to master the SSJ could have been the hardest part of their training. Simply claiming that achieving FPSSJ ist just a little harder than a walk in the park, when knowing what the SSJ form alone represented at that point in the story, how hard it was to achieve it, how hard it was to handle it. Standing around for months as a SSJ doesn't really sound something you can just do and it probably isn't.

[Hitiro]

That is a silly assumption, how could they fail to achieve FPSSJ? There is nothing difficult about obtaining it. All you have to do is stand around for 3 or 4 months keeping up the SSJ transformation. In fact if Vegeta and Trunks were going to find another way then leaving SSJ on while they do such a thing would be killing two birds with one stone. There would be no problem for them to maintain the SSJ transformation in the ROSAT for most of the year while they experimented with different ways to boost their output. Even if they do fail at finding another way of improving their SSJ form by the end of their training they would have achieved FPSSJ by just keeping up the SSJ transformation.

Well I find this assumption way sillier. For all we know, being able to master the SSJ could have been the hardest part of their training. Simply claiming that achieving FPSSJ ist just a little harder than a walk in the park, when knowing what the SSJ form alone represented at that point in the story, how hard it was to achieve it, how hard it was to handle it. Standing around for months as a SSJ doesn't really sound something you can just do and it probably isn't.

So your assuming here that Vegeta who has had 30 years of fighting experience wouldn't be able to master SSJ compared to Gohan who has been fighting for little more than 5 years and had just learnt to go SSJ recently? What would make mastering the SSJ form the hardest part of their training? Considering what was accomplished by Goku and Gohan in the ROSAT, that being, getting Gohan to use SSJ, discovering the graded forms and then mastering SSJ. Even if we split these three tasks up evenly we'd have 4 months for Gohan learning SSJ, 4 months for Goku to obtain the graded forms and then 4 months for mastering SSJ. If Vegeta and Trunks were that ineffective in the ROSAT at most it should have take them twice as long to obtain mastery over the SSJ form. Actually obtaining SSJ and turning it on and off at will seemed to be the most difficult part of the SSJ form, Goku even states that it was very hard to transform at will and it required a lot of practice.

[Fox666]

So you are assuming here that Vegeta who has had 30 years of fighting experience is weaker than Gohan who has been fighting for little more than 5 years and had just learnt to fight recently?

[Michsi]

So your assuming here that Vegeta who has had 30 years of fighting experience wouldn't be able to master SSJ compared to Gohan who has been fighting for little more than 5 years and had just learnt to go SSJ recently? What would make mastering the SSJ form the hardest part of their training? Considering what was accomplished by Goku and Gohan in the ROSAT, that being, getting Gohan to use SSJ, discovering the graded forms and then mastering SSJ. Even if we split these three tasks up evenly we'd have 4 months for Gohan learning SSJ, 4 months for Goku to obtain the graded forms and then 4 months for mastering SSJ. If Vegeta and Trunks were that ineffective in the ROSAT at most it should have take them twice as long to obtain mastery over the SSJ form. Actually obtaining SSJ and turning it on and off at will seemed to be the most difficult part of the SSJ form, Goku even states that it was very hard to transform at will and it required a lot of practice.

Yes since we see that Gohan is able to do it and not Vegeta.
The others weren't just surprised that Goku came up with the idea, but the fact that they could also do it.
Goku and Gohan continued their training after they came out of the Rosat by staying in SSJ form. If Vegeta and Trunks planned to follow their footsteps why don't we see them doing the exact same thing when they're out of the Rosat? his was pretty much a situation where they'd want to practice as much as they could, so there would be no reason for Trunks and Vegeta not to stay permanently in ssj form like Goku and Gohan except if they couldn't.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta and Trunks definetely abandoned the grade 2 form and started focusing on Super Saiyan like Goku and Gohan. But unlike Goku and Gohan they weren't stressless Super Saiyans just yet(at least there's nothing conclusive saying they were) and had definetely not reached the limits of their Super Saiyan forms(SSJFP).
That's what I think.

[Hitiro]

Yes since we see that Gohan is able to do it and not Vegeta.
The others weren't just surprised that Goku came up with the idea, but the fact that they could also do it.
Goku and Gohan continued their training after they came out of the Rosat by staying in SSJ form. If Vegeta and Trunks planned to follow their footsteps why don't we see them doing the exact same thing when they're out of the Rosat? his was pretty much a situation where they'd want to practice as much as they could, so there would be no reason for Trunks and Vegeta not to stay permanently in ssj form like Goku and Gohan except if they couldn't.

I personally felt that the surprise was more from the fact that it was such an easy concept to grasp and come up with so why didn't they think of it sooner. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why Vegeta and Trunks didn't come out as SSJ's and that reason is they went into the ROSAT knowing what they needed to do to get FPSSJ. Goku and Gohan would have obtained it near the end or half way through their ROSAT training so it would make sense to use those last few says before facing Cell to make sure. If Vegeta and Trunks had obtained FPSSJ in the first couple of months, even half way through, they wouldn't need to come out as SSJ because they would have already mastered it to the same extent as Gohan and Goku. Training would also be more effective if they actually turned off SSJ to rest because there is probably still a slight strain on your energy supply. Considering if Goku and Gohan's recovery rates outweigh the SSJ forms energy strain while they aren't doing much then they wouldn't have to worry but training excessively would just impede them as they won't be recovering from the energy strain while they are training. Of course Goku and Gohan obviously did do some training while they were obtaining FPSSJ but if you have completely mastered it then why not just turn it off when you don't need it and continue to get stronger while recovering faster? This is why Vegeta and Trunks have the advantage because they would have the time to master FPSSJ and then train properly from there on. Goku and Gohan came out as SSJ's most probably because they were just coming to the end of mastering SSJ so they thought to leave it on. And we know Goku was pretty confident in Gohan's hidden power which is why they didn't train up until the date of the Cell games. If they decided to train then there's no doubt Goku would have turned off SSJ because after training the SSJ form would impede their recovery rate with the marginal energy strain. So simply Vegeta and Trunks would find it better to master FPSSJ and then turn off SSJ to rest. There is no reason for them to leave the SSJ form on for the whole year, it wouldn't have provided them any benefits and would have put them at a disadvantage by slowing their recovery time between training periods.

[Piccolo Daimao]

And even if Toriyama did mention that they were FPSSjs, where would he fit it in?

Maybe before Goku fights Cell? It is kinda weird that if Vegeta indeed accomplished what Goku did he doesn't try to boost his superiority over his and actually remains at a corner fully certain that Goku is stronger than him. It would really be the only instance that someone has a technique/transformation/etc. yet isn't stated. Even Piccolo was remarked to be on a whole new level than before. Vegeta & Trunks? Nothing. And in the risk of sound like a broken record the only official word on this says Trunks & Vegeta didn't accomplished what Goku & Gohan did.

Well, when Goku says that he'll fight Cell first and asks Vegeta if that's a problem, Vegeta just nonchalantly replies this:

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first
Vegeta: “Do want you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

So it's clear that he thinks he's powered up so much that he can defeat Cell, which Goku won't be able to do. It's only until after Goku powers up that he realizes the extent of his power, as the most Vegeta had felt from Goku before was his less-than-half power, which he didn't know was less-than-half because, obviously, he wasn't there.

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “S-so this is his true power?...”
Trunks: “Am-amazing…Goku really is absolutely amazing…”

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even Kakarot…”

And Cell does mention that Vegeta and Trunks have become stronger, but they're still inferior in power to Goku.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P13.5
Context: after Goku says there’s other people to fight besides him
Cell: “It’s the same thing. Vegeta and Trunks may have raised their power, but they should still be inferior to you…”

So, just like Piccolo, they're mentioned to have become stronger than before. It's only slightly different in Piccolo's case because, straight afterwards, it's used as a point of humour that, no matter how strong Piccolo's become, it still won't do any good against Cell.

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go in the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”
Piccolo: “Hmph…You really were frank…”

What can be concluded from the whole thing is simply that Vegeta and Trunks didn't gain as much power as Goku and Gohan did. That doesn't have to necessarily mean that they didn't achieve Full-Power Super Saiyan.

[Michsi]

I personally felt that the surprise was more from the fact that it was such an easy concept to grasp and come up with so why didn't they think of it sooner.

I think this is hugely undermining the SSJ form and what that leap in power was supposed to represent. The SSJ was the highest regarded and powerfull fighting form and had been glorified left and right ever since it had been introduced. Everybody was amazed that they had managed to reach a level in which they could stay in the SSJ form as easy as in their normal state.

There is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why Vegeta and Trunks didn't come out as SSJ's and that reason is they went into the ROSAT knowing what they needed to do to get FPSSJ. Goku and Gohan would have obtained it near the end or half way through their ROSAT training so it would make sense to use those last few says before facing Cell to make sure. If Vegeta and Trunks had obtained FPSSJ in the first couple of months, even half way through, they wouldn't need to come out as SSJ because they would have already mastered it to the same extent as Gohan and Goku. Training would also be more effective if they actually turned off SSJ to rest because there is probably still a slight strain on your energy supply. Considering if Goku and Gohan's recovery rates outweigh the SSJ forms energy strain while they aren't doing much then they wouldn't have to worry but training excessively would just impede them as they won't be recovering from the energy strain while they are training. Of course Goku and Gohan obviously did do some training while they were obtaining FPSSJ but if you have completely mastered it then why not just turn it off when you don't need it and continue to get stronger while recovering faster? This is why Vegeta and Trunks have the advantage because they would have the time to master FPSSJ and then train properly from there on. Goku and Gohan came out as SSJ's most probably because they were just coming to the end of mastering SSJ so they thought to leave it on. And we know Goku was pretty confident in Gohan's hidden power which is why they didn't train up until the date of the Cell games. If they decided to train then there's no doubt Goku would have turned off SSJ because after training the SSJ form would impede their recovery rate with the marginal energy strain. So simply Vegeta and Trunks would find it better to master FPSSJ and then turn off SSJ to rest. There is no reason for them to leave the SSJ form on for the whole year, it wouldn't have provided them any benefits and would have put them at a disadvantage by slowing their recovery time between training periods.

You can try to find reasons and try rationalize your oppinion as much as you want, you are entitled to it, but at most, it still falls under the category of "maybe" since there is no proof to back up this claim as if it were a fact. Arguments like that Goku and Gohan attained FPSSJ at the end of their training have also nothing to back them up. I highly doubt that they would have gotten so much more powerfull than the others otherwise.
And Goku plainly states that they needed to rest but they still stay in SSJ form. They had come to a level were they could completely relax and recover as SSJs, because it no longer represented a strain. If Vegeta and Trunks aren't shown to be able to do the same thing, then to me it simply means they couldn't.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Michsi, there's no real proof to back up your opinion either. No-one is right nor wrong.

Anyway, I think we should end this here. I sense this discussion going round in circles.

[Hitiro]

You can try to find reasons and try rationalize your oppinion as much as you want, you are entitled to it, but at most, it still falls under the category of "maybe" since there is no proof to back up this claim as if it were a fact. Arguments like that Goku and Gohan attained FPSSJ at the end of their training have also nothing to back them up. I highly doubt that they would have gotten so much more powerfull than the others otherwise.
And Goku plainly states that they needed to rest but they still stay in SSJ form. They had come to a level were they could completely relax and recover as SSJs, because it no longer represented a strain. If Vegeta and Trunks aren't shown to be able to do the same thing, then to me it simply means they couldn't.

When I say "end of their training" I don't necessarily mean a couple of days. I mean the last few months, your forgetting that Gohan still had to learn how to become a SSJ, that isn't going to happen over night of them being there. We also don't know when Goku had realised about the graded forms, Gohan was still training to get used to maintaining the SSJ form and turning it on with ease at the time but we don't know how long it took Goku, Trunks or Vegeta to get to their stability when they demonstrated it. I agree they had come to a level where they could relax and recover as SSJ's but I don't believe they removed the energy strain completely. The form will have an energy consumption to it no matter how well it's trained, it's a transformation. And while they can probably overcome the energy consumption and strain from resting it won't be as effective as using their base form. And do we really have any proof Vegeta and Trunks didn't achieve it? Just because they aren't SSJ at the Cell Games doesn't mean that they didn't, it could just mean that they didn't want to be in their SSJ forms. There's no advantage to them having it on while they aren't fighting and they can go SSJ whenever they want.

But this is just going to keep bouncing back and forth because there isn't any true proof of either arguments, we'll just have to agree on disagreeing.

[Michsi]

But Michsi, there's no real proof to back up your opinion either. No-one is right nor wrong.

I know that , I already said once that one can chose to see it that way but those who don't believe it aren't wrong either .

For me it's simple-We do not see Vegeta and Trunks being able to stay in SSJ form like Goku and Gohan, when it was obvious that is was the optimum way to improve.

This to me seems just like claiming Tenshinhan or Yamcha should be able to use the Kaioken because they stayed long enough with King Kai, but simply chose not to because it wouldn' make a difference either way.

[hleV]

We do not see Vegeta and Trunks being able to stay in SSJ form like Goku and Gohan, when it was obvious that is was the optimum way to improve.

Vegeta and Trunks had plenty of time to stay as SSJs in the ROSAT. For Goku and Gohan, first Gohan had to achieve SSJ, then Goku came up with a perfect training plan. Vegeta and Trunks had that training plan from the very start, so they simply had more time to master SSJ, unlike Goku and Gohan who not only started that kind of training later, but also went out of ROSAT after less than a year spent in it.
Plus, after coming out of ROSAT, Goku mentioned that they will still train a bit before the Cell Games, so staying as SSJs was a part of their still ongoing training, which Vegeta and Trunks most likely didn't do after leaving ROSAT.