Is Gotenks on par with Gohan?

[SaiyanZ]

Alright. Now that you believe SSJ Gotenks>SSJ Goku, Then logically Gotenks's SSJ3 has to also be stronger due to them both having the same multiplication factor with SSJ3. To even take the gamble. Goku has to believe Gotenks would be stronger then Vegeta who was equal to SSJ2 Goku. If SSJ Gotenks was not stronger then Majin Vegeta, Gotenks would be beaten easily. Goku knew he would have a chance at winning. That means he would believe SSJ Gotenks>Majin Vegeta. That puts SSJ Gotenks higher then SSJ2 tier but below SSJ3. Now factor in his SSJ3 form and he is easily stronger then Goku.

I don't think that's correct. A SSJ3's strength is dependent on where he is and what status his body is in from my POV. Gotenks is only shown as a living SSJ3 on Earth. So if you want to go ahead and say that SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (alive, on Earth) then yeah, I agree with that. However, I believe that that doesn't apply for a dead Goku in Other World/afterlife. Even if SSJ3 Gotenks is dead, in Other World, that doesn't make him > Dead SSJ3 Goku, in afterlife/Other World. As strange as that sounds given what I said before, here's my reasoning: Gotenks is a fusion of two youthful hybrid Saiyans. Having the stamina of two hybrid Saiyans, with hybrids having the potential to be > their parent, and stamina being somewhat corollary with energy/ki manipulation and power level, we see that the limits that hold a SSJ3 don't apply to Gotenks. Living bodies can't sustain the form and it uses up too much energy in the mortal realm. Gotenks has never shown to be exhausted from using the form at all. Those limits are superseded, though his lifespan is shortened to 5 min. And because they are superseded, it doesn't really matter where Gotenks fights and/or the status his body is in when fighting. He can be at full power whenever, wherever.

Goku can't. His fight with Kid Buu is more than enough evidence to show this. And because Goku was allegedly able to one-shot Kid Buu with those limits still attahed to him, and because of my reasoning that Kid Buu > Super Buu, a dead SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.
I might've glossed over some points since I'm getting tired here, so sorry about that

[dbzfan7]

Alright. Now that you believe SSJ Gotenks>SSJ Goku, Then logically Gotenks's SSJ3 has to also be stronger due to them both having the same multiplication factor with SSJ3. To even take the gamble. Goku has to believe Gotenks would be stronger then Vegeta who was equal to SSJ2 Goku. If SSJ Gotenks was not stronger then Majin Vegeta, Gotenks would be beaten easily. Goku knew he would have a chance at winning. That means he would believe SSJ Gotenks>Majin Vegeta. That puts SSJ Gotenks higher then SSJ2 tier but below SSJ3. Now factor in his SSJ3 form and he is easily stronger then Goku.

I don't think that's correct. A SSJ3's strength is dependent on where he is and what status his body is in from my POV. Gotenks is only shown as a living SSJ3 on Earth. So if you want to go ahead and say that SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (alive, on Earth) then yeah, I agree with that. However, I believe that that doesn't apply for a dead Goku in Other World/afterlife. Even if SSJ3 Gotenks is dead, in Other World, that doesn't make him > Dead SSJ3 Goku, in afterlife/Other World. As strange as that sounds given what I said before, here's my reasoning: Gotenks is a fusion of two youthful hybrid Saiyans. Having the stamina of two hybrid Saiyans, with hybrids having the potential to be > their parent, and stamina being somewhat corollary with energy/ki manipulation and power level, we see that the limits that hold a SSJ3 don't apply to Gotenks. Living bodies can't sustain the form and it uses up too much energy in the mortal realm. Gotenks has never shown to be exhausted from using the form at all. Those limits are superseded, though his lifespan is shortened to 5 min. And because they are superseded, it doesn't really matter where Gotenks fights and/or the status his body is in when fighting. He can be at full power whenever, wherever.

Goku can't. His fight with Kid Buu is more than enough evidence to show this. And because Goku was allegedly able to one-shot Kid Buu with those limits still attahed to him, and because of my reasoning that Kid Buu > Super Buu, a dead SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.
I might've glossed over some points since I'm getting tired here, so sorry about that

I really don't understand that reasoning at all. SSJ3 has the same boost for everyone. Dead Goku is as Strong as alive Goku. Dead Goku can use SSJ3 more efficient though. All SSJ forms are multipliers, no change for anyone. SSJ3 Goku can't be stronger then SSJ3 Gotenks when he is on a whole other level. Fusion is a ridiculous boost of power. Also I suggest looking at the quote again as to why Super Boo>Kid Boo. There is also a thread on page 2 of the in-universe forum to help explain as well. SSJ Gotenks is already above SSJ2 tier. SSJ3 Gotenks is high end SSJ3 tier While Goku is in regular SSJ3 tier. There really is no reasoning for Goku to be stronger.

[hleV]

Goku didn't know that Vegeta would knock him out. That's not a matter of miscalculation.

It is on Goku. To think that Vegeta would help him in a different fight, let alone any fight, when the match he's wanted for years is still going on? Clear miscalculation

It was Vegeta's trick. There was no trick when Goku calculated Gotenks' power.

The throw was accurate, it's not his fault that Gohan is a failure. The calculation was fine.

The Potara landed on the rock behind Gohan. Poor throw no matter how you look at it.

Not that an inaccurate throw has anything to do with Goku's ability to calculate someone's power, but Gohan was lagging for a whole panel after Goku threw the Potara and didn't fully extend his right arm in time to catch it. Gohan's failure, not Goku's miscalculation.

Why wouldn't he be confident when his SSJ3 is supposedly capable of destroying Pure Boo? He didn't know that things would fuck up because of SSJ3's usage in an alive body. Again, not a matter of miscalculation because Goku didn't know about SSJ3 conditions.

Chap. 508, he and Vegeta are all smiles when Kid Buu first appears.

Yes, because Boo's power has dropped. They then claim that now they can manage something (so not a guaranteed victory).

Chap. 510 Goku regrets not using the Potara. He also says "But I thought things would go a little better than this".

Goku was trying to build the needed energy for the whole time. He said "I thought things would go a little better than this…!" AFTER he couldn't build the energy on his own, while fighting. That's why shortly after the fight between him and Pure Boo had started, Vegeta interferred to ask what was going on - he had expected SSJ3 to destroy Boo.

Vegeta even admits that Kid Buu is stronger than both Goku and himself initially thought. And this is all before Goku discovered the negative effect of using a living body.

No, it was only Vegeta who underestimated Pure Boo. And the negative effect, like I mentioned before, resulted in Goku not being able to gather enough energy to destroy Boo. He just didn't realize that at first and decided that he needs one minute to do that.

[SaiyanZ]

I really don't understand that reasoning at all. SSJ3 has the same boost for everyone. Dead Goku is as Strong as alive Goku. Dead Goku can use SSJ3 more efficient though. All SSJ forms are multipliers, no change for anyone. SSJ3 Goku can't be stronger then SSJ3 Gotenks when he is on a whole other level. Fusion is a ridiculous boost of power. Also I suggest looking at the quote again as to why Super Boo>Kid Boo. There is also a thread on page 2 of the in-universe forum to help explain as well. SSJ Gotenks is already above SSJ2 tier. SSJ3 Gotenks is high end SSJ3 tier While Goku is in regular SSJ3 tier. There really is no reasoning for Goku to be stronger.

It is the same boost for everyone, yet is not. Not trying to make it sound philosophical but think about it like this: Because Gotenks as a SSJ3 has never been impeded by the effects of being on Earth or being alive, his power can be controlled very easily like Piccolo, SSJ Vegeta or any other character who has shown up.

Goku on the other hand, IS impeded by those effects. He needs 1 min of just charging up to reach his full power in a living body; any other time where he is punching, kicking, firing ki blasts or anything that makes him lose stamina, can't possibly increase his power level. He doesn't have a set ki reservoir from the start like the rest of the characters (this only applies when he uses SSJ3). That's actually the whole deal with the form, since you can't possibly reach the upper limits of your ki with a living body using up all that energy in the first place. The only reason Goku could come close to this is because he was in the World of the Kais, in the afterlife. And if we go back to his conversation with Piccolo, he says something along the lines of it not being used in this "world of time" when he's on Earth. So if he's on Earth, he's losing energy right from the start; all the ki that is lost is not used whatsoever (figuratively speaking since it is being used to maintain the form). Basically, I'm just trying to say that the limiters have more of a severe effect on Goku than they do on Gotenks. And its because of this that Goku's power level in SSJ3 can vary depending on the status of his body or where he's at. Gotenks doesn't have to worry about that since he isn't affected at all. And like I said, my reasoning for Goku > Gotenks is based on the Buus as well.

It was Vegeta's trick. There was no trick when Goku calculated Gotenks' power.

So? It's still poor judgment on Goku's part. If he fell for a trick during a fight which he KNEW his rival had been aching for, Goku has no one to blame but himself.

Not that an inaccurate throw has anything to do with Goku's ability to calculate someone's power, but Gohan was lagging for a whole panel after Goku threw the Potara and didn't fully extend his right arm in time to catch it. Gohan's failure, not Goku's miscalculation.

That would be like me talking to my mom, with my dad some feet away, and out of no where I throw something with little forewarning and not towards him at all. It's not my dad's fault that he never caught it, its mine because I initiated the throw. I've been yelled at too many times on my basketball teams for throwing passes like this when I was little. The Potara was overthrown since it landed behind him. It's just that simple, it was a terrible throw with little direction towards Gohan.

Yes, because Boo's power has dropped. They then claim that now they can manage something (so not a guaranteed victory).

Still bad judgment since later this smiling reaction is totally off when Vegeta says he's stronger than we thought. And I for one don't think Buu's power dropped b/c of my 3 aforementioned reasons and because this was Vegeta's same reaction to Cell's Perfect Form. Also, since specifically him being mentioned as a midget was mentioned, I don't think his ki was being talked about at all.

Goku was trying to build the needed energy for the whole time. He said "I thought things would go a little better than this…!" AFTER he couldn't build the energy on his own, while fighting. That's why shortly after the fight between him and Pure Boo had started, Vegeta interferred to ask what was going on - he had expected SSJ3 to destroy Boo.

The keyword here is "but". He says this after he tells Vegeta that he's been trying to finish it all this time. So even though he's been trying to do it, he "thought things would go a little better" by fighting himself. Even after considering full power, he "thought things would go a little better". That's why he mentions his regret of not using the Potara, which leads me to believe that he overestimated himself, which means it was another account of poor judgment on his part.

No, it was only Vegeta who underestimated Pure Boo. And the negative effect, like I mentioned before, resulted in Goku not being able to gather enough energy to destroy Boo. He just didn't realize that at first and decided that he needs one minute to do that.

Goku did underestimate him. Vegeta says '"That goes for you too" when talking about Kid Buu's strength. And if Goku saying he "thought things would go a little better" is not underestimating Kid Buu, then I don't know what is. This is all before the negative effect is discovered.

[dbzfan7]

It is the same boost for everyone, yet is not. Not trying to make it sound philosophical but think about it like this: Because Gotenks as a SSJ3 has never been impeded by the effects of being on Earth or being alive, his power can be controlled very easily like Piccolo, SSJ Vegeta or any other character who has shown up.

Gotenks is impeded for using SSJ3. His Fusion time is cut from 30 minutes to 5 minutes. Goku even with his drawbacks can probably last more then 5 minutes.

Goku on the other hand, IS impeded by those effects. He needs 1 min of just charging up to reach his full power in a living body; any other time where he is punching, kicking, firing ki blasts or anything that makes him lose stamina, can't possibly increase his power level. He doesn't have a set ki reservoir from the start like the rest of the characters (this only applies when he uses SSJ3). That's actually the whole deal with the form, since you can't possibly reach the upper limits of your ki with a living body using up all that energy in the first place. The only reason Goku could come close to this is because he was in the World of the Kais, in the afterlife. And if we go back to his conversation with Piccolo, he says something along the lines of it not being used in this "world of time" when he's on Earth. So if he's on Earth, he's losing energy right from the start; all the ki that is lost is not used whatsoever (figuratively speaking since it is being used to maintain the form). Basically, I'm just trying to say that the limiters have more of a severe effect on Goku than they do on Gotenks. And its because of this that Goku's power level in SSJ3 can vary depending on the status of his body or where he's at. Gotenks doesn't have to worry about that since he isn't affected at all. And like I said, my reasoning for Goku > Gotenks is based on the Buus as well.

I really don't understand how that makes Goku>Gotenks. How can Goku's SSJ3 be stronger then Gotenks, when Gotenks in SSJ is already established as stronger then Goku's initial SSJ3 level. Now that I look back at the manga, Gotenks is even stronger then I thought. If Gotenks was going to win, he would have to put up a better fight then SSJ3 Goku did in his SSJ form. Goku was of course holding back, but Goku knew he would have to go all out if he was going to kill Boo. If Goku kept fighting Boo at SSJ3 without going all out, the fight would have been a stand still until his time on earth ran out. Fat Boo had no trouble keeping up and fighting Goku at SSJ3. Fat Boo was never even harmed or threatened. Gotenks would have to put up a better fight then SSJ3 Goku (holding back) to even harm Boo. When Goku was fighting Fat Boo, nothing actually harmed Boo, he enjoyed the whole fight. Gotenks would have to be stronger then the level of power Goku was using against Fat Boo or else he would lose and be killed. Goku suspected a Super Saiyan fusion would be enough. I am going by performance wise, and it is impossible for Goku to be stronger then Gotenks when Gotenks's required power to kill Fat Boo would have to be Stronger then SSJ3 Goku's level he used against Fat Boo if he was going to have a chance at killing Boo.

Still bad judgment since later this smiling reaction is totally off when Vegeta says he's stronger than we thought. And I for one don't think Buu's power dropped b/c of my 3 aforementioned reasons and because this was Vegeta's same reaction to Cell's Perfect Form. Also, since specifically him being mentioned as a midget was mentioned, I don't think his ki was being talked about at all.

If you haven't noticed, Boo's power always changes every time he takes a new form. Buff Boo was the form he took after he absorbed South Kaioshin. Kid Boo was his original form. There is no way Boo's power level didn't change since on record, every time he changes forms, he gets stronger or weaker. Once he transformed from Buff Boo to Kid Boo he lost power and his influences from the Kaioshin. It would also make sense why Goku and Vegeta would all of the sudden be so calm and believe they could handle him. Which they could have without the SSJ3 drawback.

[SaiyanZ]

Gotenks is impeded for using SSJ3. His Fusion time is cut from 30 minutes to 5 minutes. Goku even with his drawbacks can probably last more then 5 minutes.

You are correct, but I'm specifically talking about his power. Also, he was already fused before he turned SSJ3 (meaning time had already passed while fused), so I take his 5 min with a grain of salt.

I really don't understand how that makes Goku>Gotenks. How can Goku's SSJ3 be stronger then Gotenks, when Gotenks in SSJ is already established as stronger then his initial SSJ3.....I am going by performance wise, and it is impossible for Goku to be stronger then Gotenks when what Gotenks required power to kill Fat Boo has to be Stronger then SSJ3 Goku(level against Boo) if he was going to have a chance at winning.

Its the limiters. They restrict Goku's power. It is because SSJ3 isn't like SSJ1 or SSJ2 in terms of multiplication. SSJ1 and SSJ2 multiply the power regardless of location and whether one is alive/dead. SSJ3 has to depend on those 2 things, given my explanation earlier. And like I said, I don't think SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu given Goku's judgment in the series. I think Saiga might've said something earlier in the thread about not knowing for sure.

If you haven't noticed, Boo's power always changes every time he takes a new form. Buff Boo was the form he took after he absorbed South Kaioshin. Kid Boo was his original form. There is no way Boo's power level didn't change since on record, every time he changes forms, he gets stronger or weaker. Once he transformed from Buff Boo to Kid Boo he lost power and his influences from the Kaioshin. It would also make sense why Goku and Vegeta would all of the sudden be so calm and believe they could handle him. Which they could have without the SSJ3 drawback.

I did notice. And I'm not saying his power level didn't change. I'm just saying its not mentioned between Vegeta and Goku. And like I said, before this was Vegeta's same reaction to Final Form Frieza and Perfect Form Cell. That's why I dismiss it. And I think Kid Buu was stronger in a similar fashion. I believe both the Kais weakened him, again due to my 3 reasons.

[hleV]

It's pretty funny how, according to you, all those trivial things lead to Goku having miscalculated Gotenks' power, when those things are not even remotely relevant.

Vegeta knocking out Goku?
Goku throwing Potara at Gohan?
Goku having his SSJ3 fuck him up?

None of those things have anything to do with Goku's ability to tell how strong someone can become by fusing. How can you not see that you have no valid arguments... Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but your opinion obviously uses some really weird logic.

And SSJ3 Goku has the same power whether he's alive or dead. Just that its negative effects don't apply when dead.

[dbzfan7]

You are correct, but I'm specifically talking about his power. Also, he was already fused before he turned SSJ3 (meaning time had already passed while fused), so I take his 5 min with a grain of salt.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”

Its the limiters. They restrict Goku's power. It is because SSJ3 isn't like SSJ1 or SSJ2 in terms of multiplication. SSJ1 and SSJ2 multiply the power regardless of location and whether one is alive/dead. SSJ3 has to depend on those 2 things, given my explanation earlier. And like I said, I don't think SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu given Goku's judgment in the series. I think Saiga might've said something earlier in the thread about not knowing for sure.

That really makes no sense to me considering that Goku would have been sending his son to his death. Goku wouldn't send his son to his death if he couldn't win. By your logic, Goku is an idiot who is sending his son to die in a fight he never stood a chance to begin with. SSJ Gotenks HAS to be stronger then first appearance SSJ3 Goku or else Goku wasted his time. Goku suspected they would be stronger because fusion is just that ridiculously powerful, like when he told Piccolo how to weak metamorese became a fierce warrior after fusion. I don't see Goku taking a gamble on odds of zero

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

He seems positive they will win.

I did notice. And I'm not saying his power level didn't change. I'm just saying its not mentioned between Vegeta and Goku. And like I said, before this was Vegeta's same reaction to Final Form Freeza and Perfect Form Cell. That's why I dismiss it. And I think Kid Buu was stronger in a similar fashion. I believe both the Kais weakened him, again due to my 3 reasons.

Personally absorption can only weaken him if the subject is weaker then he is. South Kaioshin was his equal or stronger since Kid Boo was forced to absorb him. Daikaioshin was weaker though, but was a much more powerful with Kaioshin magic then physical abilities, kinda like the East Kaioshin. How come the Kai's weaken him while he gets stronger absorbing everyone else. The loopwhole in my theory though is Piccolo. I douhgt if Kid Boo was stronger then his last change they would act so calm. It would seem very random. Though not for Vegeta as you already pointed out. But for Goku, it really makes no sense. This is the same guy who feared Boo even before he showed his power. He told Vegeta not to underestimate Fat Boo early on when Fat Boo was reborn as well. It seems out of character ow that he would underestimate his ability against Boo when earlier on he was more careful about it. I personally blame it on his SSJ3 weakness. I don't even see Kid Boo above Super Boo when in the Manga Goku said he had no chance against him, while with Kid Boo he said he could win.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Goku thought things would go better if he didn't show off. He may have been able to reach full power if he started fresh instead of waiting.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

They were mocking his size. But as herms says here, it doesn't mean his ki didn't shrink. If it didn't, then the whole situation makes no sense if they say so many times they can handle him. Kid Boo had to have lost some ki to have the scene make any sense. Even after they underestimated him, they still say they can handle him. They probably overestimated how much ki he lost.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Here it is referenced that Buff Boo and Kid Boo are 2 different forms. It is also mentioned only Daikaioshin weakened Boo, not South Kaioshin. Though the last part could be said as a contradiction.

[SaiyanZ]

It's pretty funny how, according to you, all those trivial things lead to Goku having miscalculated Gotenks' power, when those things are not even remotely relevant.

Vegeta knocking out Goku?
Goku throwing Potara at Gohan?
Goku having his SSJ3 fuck him up?

None of those things have anything to do with Goku's ability to tell how strong someone can become by fusing. How can you not see that you have no valid arguments... Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but your opinion obviously uses some really weird logic.

And SSJ3 Goku has the same power whether he's alive or dead. Just that its negative effects don't apply when dead.

They're relevant since it takes into account Goku's judgment on all fronts. His judgment was used to guesstimate Gotenks's power, not get it calculated. If it was calculated, there would be no need for him to consider it a "chance/gamble", as said by him.

And no he doesn't, at least the way I see it. You can read my response to dbzfan7 to see why I think this way.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”

Yeah I'm an idiot

That really makes no sense to me considering that Goku would have been sending his son to his death. Goku wouldn't send his son to his death if he couldn't win. By your logic, Goku is an idiot who is sending his son to die in a fight he never stood a chance to begin with. SSJ Gotenks HAS to be stronger then first appearance SSJ3 Goku or else Goku wasted his time. Goku suspected they would be stronger because fusion is just that ridiculously powerful, like when he told Piccolo how to weak metamorese became a fierce warrior after fusion. I don't see Goku taking a gamble on odds of zero

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

He seems positive they will win.

Again, that's not enough for me. If I initially read it, then yeah, I'd believe him. But his judgment is too off later in the series for me to believe him here. Btw, I don't think he's gambling on zero, him believing Gotenks > Buu is worth something, just not a whole lot as people make it out to be.

Personally absorption can only weaken him if the subject is weaker then he is. South Kaioshin was his equal or stronger since Kid Boo was forced to absorb him. Daikaioshin was weaker though, but was a much more powerful with Kaioshin magic then physical abilities, kinda like the East Kaioshin. How come the Kai's weaken him while he gets stronger absorbing everyone else. The loopwhole in my theory though is Piccolo. I douhgt if Kid Boo was stronger then his last change they would act so calm. It would seem very random. Though not for Vegeta as you already pointed out. But for Goku, it really makes no sense. This is the same guy who feared Boo even before he showed his power. He told Vegeta not to underestimate Fat Boo early on when Fat Boo was reborn as well. It seems out of character ow that he would underestimate his ability against Boo when earlier on he was more careful about it. I personally blame it on his SSJ3 weakness. I don't even see Kid Boo above Super Boo when in the Manga Goku said he had no chance against him, while with Kid Boo he said he could win.

You bring up really good points, but as you said, why absorb Piccolo? He did gain something. He might've gained something from South Kaio (I can't believe it was strength due to my 3 reasons, but something like a better fighting body is plausible to me) since the manga kinda went out of its way to mention his burliness. As far as Goku goes, he was correct to fear Buu, but I think it was more a heat of the moment thing than anything. He just rescued Gohan and the others, plus he had shrunk in size. As for Goku's statement against Super buu, I look at it based on my SSJ3 theory. Since he already knew about using it on Earth, he didn't want to fight. Thus why he chose Fusion over needlessly wasting his own ki. My POV at least.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Goku thought things would go better if he didn't show off. He may have been able to reach full power if he started fresh instead of waiting.

Actually Goku told Vegeta he had been trying to do it but he hasn't had a chance.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

They were mocking his size. But as herms says here, it doesn't mean his ki didn't shrink. If it didn't, then the whole situation makes no sense if they say so many times they can handle him. Kid Boo had to have lost some ki to have the scene make any sense. Even after they underestimated him, they still say they can handle him. They probably overestimated how much ki he lost.

I guess you could be correct about his ki shrinking, but I can't believe that due to (I know you're tired of this) my 3 reasons. And to be fair to Kid Buu, it doesn't seem like he really went full power or took them serious. He was sleeping before his fight with Goku and then dancing around for no reason before Vegeta stepped in. I actually think Kid Buu could be > SSJ3 Goku.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Here it is referenced that Buff Boo and Kid Boo are 2 different forms. It is also mentioned only Daikaioshin weakened Boo, not South Kaioshin. Though the last part could be said as a contradiction.

To keep it short, I always thought the absorption part meant both of them. Given the 3 reasons, I don't see why South Kaio shouldn't apply as well, but like you said, Buu most likely gained something from absorbing South Kaio.

[SaiyanZ]

It's pretty funny how, according to you, all those trivial things lead to Goku having miscalculated Gotenks' power, when those things are not even remotely relevant.

Vegeta knocking out Goku?
Goku throwing Potara at Gohan?
Goku having his SSJ3 fuck him up?

None of those things have anything to do with Goku's ability to tell how strong someone can become by fusing. How can you not see that you have no valid arguments... Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but your opinion obviously uses some really weird logic.

And SSJ3 Goku has the same power whether he's alive or dead. Just that its negative effects don't apply when dead.

They're relevant since it takes into account Goku's judgment on all fronts. His judgment was used to guesstimate Gotenks's power, not get it calculated. If it was calculated, there would be no need for him to consider it a "chance/gamble", as said by him.

And no he doesn't, at least the way I see it. You can read my response to dbzfan7 to see why I think this way.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.1-3
Context: after they reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “Haah…haah…Hey…! We did it!”
Goten: “Y-yeah! Haah, haah…Amazing! To think that there’s something above Super Saiyan…!”
Trunks: “We can definitely win like this…! Hihihi…Everyone will flip their lids…!”
Goten: “…But that tires you out…I feel like we used aa~~aall our power up at once…”
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become the way we were right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”

Yeah I'm an idiot

That really makes no sense to me considering that Goku would have been sending his son to his death. Goku wouldn't send his son to his death if he couldn't win. By your logic, Goku is an idiot who is sending his son to die in a fight he never stood a chance to begin with. SSJ Gotenks HAS to be stronger then first appearance SSJ3 Goku or else Goku wasted his time. Goku suspected they would be stronger because fusion is just that ridiculously powerful, like when he told Piccolo how to weak metamorese became a fierce warrior after fusion. I don't see Goku taking a gamble on odds of zero

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

He seems positive they will win.

Again, that's not enough for me. If I initially read it, then yeah, I'd believe him. But his judgment is too off later in the series for me to believe him here. Btw, I don't think he's gambling on zero, him believing Gotenks > Buu is worth something, just not a whole lot as people make it out to be.

Personally absorption can only weaken him if the subject is weaker then he is. South Kaioshin was his equal or stronger since Kid Boo was forced to absorb him. Daikaioshin was weaker though, but was a much more powerful with Kaioshin magic then physical abilities, kinda like the East Kaioshin. How come the Kai's weaken him while he gets stronger absorbing everyone else. The loopwhole in my theory though is Piccolo. I douhgt if Kid Boo was stronger then his last change they would act so calm. It would seem very random. Though not for Vegeta as you already pointed out. But for Goku, it really makes no sense. This is the same guy who feared Boo even before he showed his power. He told Vegeta not to underestimate Fat Boo early on when Fat Boo was reborn as well. It seems out of character ow that he would underestimate his ability against Boo when earlier on he was more careful about it. I personally blame it on his SSJ3 weakness. I don't even see Kid Boo above Super Boo when in the Manga Goku said he had no chance against him, while with Kid Boo he said he could win.

You bring up really good points, but as you said, why absorb Piccolo? He did gain something. He might've gained something from South Kaio (I can't believe it was strength due to my 3 reasons, but something like a better fighting body is plausible to me) since the manga kinda went out of its way to mention his burliness. As far as Goku goes, he was correct to fear Buu, but I think it was more a heat of the moment thing than anything. He just rescued Gohan and the others, plus he had shrunk in size. As for Goku's statement against Super buu, I look at it based on my SSJ3 theory. Since he already knew about using it on Earth, he didn't want to fight. Thus why he chose Fusion over needlessly wasting his own ki. My POV at least.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.5
Context: after Super Saiyan 3 Goku explains he needs to gather ki for 1 minute to defeat pure Boo
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Goku thought things would go better if he didn't show off. He may have been able to reach full power if he started fresh instead of waiting.

Actually Goku told Vegeta he had been trying to do it but he hasn't had a chance.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

They were mocking his size. But as herms says here, it doesn't mean his ki didn't shrink. If it didn't, then the whole situation makes no sense if they say so many times they can handle him. Kid Boo had to have lost some ki to have the scene make any sense. Even after they underestimated him, they still say they can handle him. They probably overestimated how much ki he lost.

I guess you could be correct about his ki shrinking, but I can't believe that due to (I know you're tired of this) my 3 reasons. And to be fair to Kid Buu, it doesn't seem like he really went full power or took them serious. He was sleeping before his fight with Goku and then dancing around for no reason before Vegeta stepped in. I actually think Kid Buu could be > SSJ3 Goku.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Here it is referenced that Buff Boo and Kid Boo are 2 different forms. It is also mentioned only Daikaioshin weakened Boo, not South Kaioshin. Though the last part could be said as a contradiction.

To keep it short, I always thought the absorption part meant both of them. Given the 3 reasons, I don't see why South Kaio shouldn't apply as well, but like you said, Buu most likely gained something from absorbing South Kaio.

[dbzfan7]

Again, that's not enough for me. If I initially read it, then yeah, I'd believe him. But his judgment is too off later in the series for me to believe him here. Btw, I don't think he's gambling on zero, him believing Gotenks > Buu is worth something, just not a whole lot as people make it out to be.

I would think it's worth more then you might think. I have never seen Goku risk anyone else life in a gamble unless they can do something. Granted Gohan may be the best and only example. Goku gambled on him getting angry and releasing his hidden power. He knew from the start even before seeing Cells true power he would win if he got angry. Even after SPC, he still believed he could win. If he was right about that, why would he be wrong now about Gotenks and Boo. I would think he would be right now. I also think he would be right do to Toriyama's original intent to have his sons (mainly Gohan) be the hero.

I guess you could be correct about his ki shrinking, but I can't believe that due to (I know you're tired of this) my 3 reasons. And to be fair to Kid Buu, it doesn't seem like he really went full power or took them serious. He was sleeping before his fight with Goku and then dancing around for no reason before Vegeta stepped in. I actually think Kid Buu could be > SSJ3 Goku.

I originally thought that too. But, people here say its because that is his fighting style, and he is insane, so it may just look like that. I flip flop on the subject myself.

You bring up really good points, but as you said, why absorb Piccolo? He did gain something. He might've gained something from South Kaio (I can't believe it was strength due to my 3 reasons, but something like a better fighting body is plausible to me) since the manga kinda went out of its way to mention his burliness. As far as Goku goes, he was correct to fear Buu, but I think it was more a heat of the moment thing than anything. He just rescued Gohan and the others, plus he had shrunk in size. As for Goku's statement against Super buu, I look at it based on my SSJ3 theory. Since he already knew about using it on Earth, he didn't want to fight. Thus why he chose Fusion over needlessly wasting his own ki. My POV at least.

I would say he definitely got stronger when absorbing South Kaioshin. Knowing dbz track record of bigger muscles equals getting stronger, I douhgt things would change now. When in dbz did bigger muscles not mean getting stronger. I believe Super Boo's comment was due to the fact they were no longer Vegetto, not their size. He used SSJ3 once on earth before and didn't notice (albeit very briefly). Goku didn't know about the drawback on SSJ3 in body form until Kid Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

I'm pretty sure that sums it up. Personally I don't believe it has anything to do with size. If they were tiny Vegetto it would change nothing. Boo knew either way he could beat them.

Actually Goku told Vegeta he had been trying to do it but he hasn't had a chance.

Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”

He said he was thinking of doing it. He could have gone full power right of the bat. But he choose not to. Then when he wanted to it was too late

I suggest you look at this thread for the Super Boo vs Kid Boo debate. It should clear things up.

[hleV]

They're relevant since it takes into account Goku's judgment on all fronts. His judgment was used to guesstimate Gotenks's power, not get it calculated. If it was calculated, there would be no need for him to consider it a "chance/gamble", as said by him.

They're irrelevant because:

• Goku had witnessed Fusion in the afterlife -- he knew the power of two Metamorians (weak) and the power of their Fusion (amazing).
• Goku knew the power of Goten & Trunks.

Thus he should have made a fairly accurate estimation of Gotenks' power. NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT, so no reason to think up theories for why Goku could've been wrong about something like that. Here you go.

And no he doesn't, at least the way I see it. You can read my response to dbzfan7 to see why I think this way.

Again you're thinking up theories about things never ever even implied. Usually the simpliest explanation is the correct one.

[Fox666]

Thus he should have made a fairly accurate estimation of Gotenks' power. NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT, so no reason to think up theories for why Goku could've been wrong about something like that. Here you go.

The problem is that this is not exactly a good reference, it's only the best we have among vague mentions.

[Xyex]

It's clear that Goku expected Gotenks' power to fall somewhere between that of his own SSJ2 and SSJ3 powers. If pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks is, at worst, equal to SSJ2 Goku, then at no point in the Buu saga can SSJ3 Goku be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Alive or dead, because being alive doesn't reduce SSJ3's power, it just eats up the energy faster. It's like haiving a pinhole in your swiming pool letting out water, or a basketball sized hole. Same pool, same amount of water, it just goes away faster.

[Mystic Gohan]

@SaiyanZ: The "gamble" as Goku called it was the kids getting the fusion down. It took Goku 7 days, and they only have like 2. Notice that he says that once they get the fusion down, they'll win for sure.

[SaiyanZ]

I would think it's worth more then you might think. I have never seen Goku risk anyone else life in a gamble unless they can do something. Granted Gohan may be the best and only example. Goku gambled on him getting angry and releasing his hidden power. He knew from the start even before seeing Cells true power he would win if he got angry. Even after SPC, he still believed he could win. If he was right about that, why would he be wrong now about Gotenks and Boo. I would think he would be right now. I also think he would be right do to Toriyama's original intent to have his sons (mainly Gohan) be the hero.

Actually Gohan would've lost if not for Vegeta intervening. Though Goku said he had the power in him, Piccolo had commented that Gohan was getting pushed back. Plus, Cell was getting ready to finish it. It is kinda hard for me to believe that Cell > Gohan, but we never see that final surge from Cell. Its kinda up in the air to me between who is the stronger of the two. Additionally, he never really got to see Goten's or Trunks's power (before he made that claim) besides at the World Tournament. After that, he hadn't seen either of their maximums till they went SSJ when trying to learn Fusion. I have to admit, the claim would hold value here. But when he tells Chi-Chi this, I interpret it as more of having faith in them. I can certainly see why you and others believe it though, so don't get me wrong.

I would say he definitely got stronger when absorbing South Kaioshin. Knowing dbz track record of bigger muscles equals getting stronger, I douhgt things would change now. When in dbz did bigger muscles not mean getting stronger. I believe Super Boo's comment was due to the fact they were no longer Vegetto, not their size. He used SSJ3 once on earth before and didn't notice (albeit very briefly). Goku didn't know about the drawback on SSJ3 in body form until Kid Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

I'm pretty sure that sums it up. Personally I don't believe it has anything to do with size. If they were tiny Vegetto it would change nothing. Boo knew either way he could beat them.

Your "muscles" theory doesn't apply for Frieza after his 2nd form though. Same goes for FPSSJ Goku. In regards to the SSJ3 comment, I'm referring to what Goku said to Piccolo at Kami's Lookout after fighting Fat Buu. It wasn't dealing with him being alive or dead, the comment was referring to him using the form on Earth rather than Other World/the afterlife.

I'm not one who thinks size was the determining factor here, but after Super Buu said Goku's blast tickled because he was the size of a flea, it kinda got me thinking that maybe its important in Super Buu's body.

He said he was thinking of doing it. He could have gone full power right of the bat. But he choose not to. Then when he wanted to it was too late

Before the fight with Kid Buu started, Goku said he was going all-out from the start (before he said he could beat Fat Buu). This could mean he didn't underestimate Kid Buu, but his later comment after mentioning Potara where he thought he could do better just makes it seem that he was wrong about Kid Buu initially.

They're irrelevant because:

• Goku had witnessed Fusion in the afterlife -- he knew the power of two Metamorians (weak) and the power of their Fusion (amazing).
• Goku knew the power of Goten & Trunks.

Thus he should have made a fairly accurate estimation of Gotenks' power. NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT, so no reason to think up theories for why Goku could've been wrong about something like that. Here you go.

Yet he admitted that he never did it himself. He can't possibly KNOW its going to work, he can have faith in the technique given what he's seen. All I'm trying to say in the end was that it was pure faith, nothing else. No calculations, no numbers, no thing. Just pure faith. Him saying it was a chance and a gamble can't mean anything else.

Again you're thinking up theories about things never ever even implied. Usually the simpliest explanation is the correct one.

Actually it is implied. Because those were direct statements from the manga.

@SaiyanZ: The "gamble" as Goku called it was the kids getting the fusion down. It took Goku 7 days, and they only have like 2. Notice that he says that once they get the fusion down, they'll win for sure.

When Piccolo asks him if he could've beaten Buu at SSJ3, he responds, saying that he decided to chance it based on the "potential" of Goten and Trunks. He also he shouldn't be here to constantly protect Earth, heavily implying that he is referring to strength when comparing himself and this new generation. If you can believe that "potential" was referring to them getting the Fusion down, go right ahead. I can't.

[Mystic Gohan]

^^ He wants to give the new generation a chance, because he won't always be there. Again, why would the gamble be about power if he is going around raving about how good Gotenks will be. The context is clearly about them getting the fusion right.

[hleV]

They're irrelevant because:

• Goku had witnessed Fusion in the afterlife -- he knew the power of two Metamorians (weak) and the power of their Fusion (amazing).
• Goku knew the power of Goten & Trunks.

Thus he should have made a fairly accurate estimation of Gotenks' power. NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT, so no reason to think up theories for why Goku could've been wrong about something like that. Here you go.

Yet he admitted that he never did it himself. He can't possibly KNOW its going to work, he can have faith in the technique given what he's seen. All I'm trying to say in the end was that it was pure faith, nothing else. No calculations, no numbers, no thing. Just pure faith. Him saying it was a chance and a gamble can't mean anything else.

Did you even read what I wrote? For a second forget your opinion of how Goku's power relates to Gotenks and rethink this through.

Goku has seen how A fused with B became C.
Now Goku knows the other instance of A and B, which is Goten & Trunks, and thus he knows what will C be.

[Fox666]

Did you even read what I wrote?

He is allowed to disagree with you, and that doesn't mean he doesn't read what you wrote.

[SaiyanZ]

They're irrelevant because:

• Goku had witnessed Fusion in the afterlife -- he knew the power of two Metamorians (weak) and the power of their Fusion (amazing).
• Goku knew the power of Goten & Trunks.

Thus he should have made a fairly accurate estimation of Gotenks' power. NOTHING CONTRADICTS IT, so no reason to think up theories for why Goku could've been wrong about something like that. Here you go.

Yet he admitted that he never did it himself. He can't possibly KNOW its going to work, he can have faith in the technique given what he's seen. All I'm trying to say in the end was that it was pure faith, nothing else. No calculations, no numbers, no thing. Just pure faith. Him saying it was a chance and a gamble can't mean anything else.

Did you even read what I wrote? For a second forget your opinion of how Goku's power relates to Gotenks and rethink this through.

Goku has seen how A fused with B became C.
Now Goku knows the other instance of A and B, which is Goten & Trunks, and thus he knows what will C be.

And if you read what I wrote, you would know I'm primarily focusing on Goku's perception and not his strength in comparison to Gotenks. It doesn't matter that he's seen Fusion before, or who's done it. He just cannot know Gotenks's power when it finally happens. He just has faith in the technique. If he had absolutely knew that Gotenks > Fat Buu, there would've been no reason from him to chance/gamble it. You only risk something when you think you CAN win. If you can SURELY win, there is no risk involved, at least in literal terms.

^^ He wants to give the new generation a chance, because he won't always be there. Again, why would the gamble be about power if he is going around raving about how good Gotenks will be. The context is clearly about them getting the fusion right.

When talking to Piccolo, he says "I shouldn't be the one to do it. It'd be better if the kids did it". It meaning beating Buu. Not getting the Fusion right. How could "potential of the kids" be possibly referring to their potential to get a dance right? Where previously in the series did we see potential for them to act out some weird and funny movements? The kids weren't even recommended till Popo said their names. THEN, Goku was all gung-ho about it. It has to be their power, with Goku having obviously seen it at the World Tournament, much prior to those events.