Always confused about the forms of Boo

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Darkprince410
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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:21 am

Amuro Ray wrote:I re-read the Manga last night, it never mentioned "superbuu" being stronger than "Fatbuu."
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…
Also remember that Goku was confident that the boys' Fusion would be enough to destroy Fat Buu by itself, and was utterly surprised by them transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 3, meaning that he didn't anticipate them reaching that transformation. As such, he felt that Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, was enough to destroy Fat Buu, and that it took Super Saiya-jin 3 in order to even the playing field with Evil Buu. In short, roughly speaking, Evil Buu is over eight times stronger than Fat Buu.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:49 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Amuro Ray wrote:I re-read the Manga last night, it never mentioned "superbuu" being stronger than "Fatbuu."
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…
Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”
Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…
Also remember that Goku was confident that the boys' Fusion would be enough to destroy Fat Buu by itself, and was utterly surprised by them transforming into a Super Saiya-jin 3, meaning that he didn't anticipate them reaching that transformation. As such, he felt that Super Saiya-jin Gotenks, before entering the Room of Spirit and Time, was enough to destroy Fat Buu, and that it took Super Saiya-jin 3 in order to even the playing field with Evil Buu. In short, roughly speaking, Evil Buu is over eight times stronger than Fat Buu.
I read -
Image
So I guess I can agree to some extent that he is more powerful. I don't agree that Goku knew how strong the boys would be when they fused - how could he? And how do you figure "Fatbuu" was 8 times weaker? We don't have anything to compare his strength too, except the first fight against Gotenks, which he beat

Image
Here it is implied that "Fatbuu" is absolutely stronger than Base Gotenks. Post training, Base Gotenks/SSJ didn't fare much better. I think it's safe to assume to assume that "superbuu" might be a little stronger, but I doubt by any huge margin.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:59 am

Stop using these terrible scanlations, they don't prove anything.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:09 am

Goku has seen the fusion in action when he learned it in the afterlife. He saw that, individually, the two fighters from Metamor weren't very powerful, but fused together they were formidable, and he could easily assess what would happen if Goten and Trunks fused together too.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Besides, it's pretty clear that Goku (and Piccolo thereafter) was planning for Gotenks to fight Buu as a Super Saiya-jin, not in their base form (as indicated by wanting them to get used to equalizing their Ssj battle power when he first had them power up). We see that Piccolo is impressed by Gotenks' Ssj level of power, and if it were below what Goku had indicated it'd be at, Piccolo's the kind of person that wouldn't hesitate to say it. Base Gotenks losing to Buu is one thing, but Goku and Piccolo were expecting him to go in fifty times stronger than he was then.

As for eight times stronger, since we know that Goku and Piccolo felt that Ssj Gotenks would be enough to destroy Fat Buu, and that Evil Buu was pretty much on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (and that the Ssj3 transformation is eight times more powerful than the Ssj transformation), Evil Buu would have to be over eight times more powerful than Fat Buu as well in order to be even with Ssj3 Gotenks's strength.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:18 am

Goku was confident that Goten & Trunks with Fusion would be able to defeat Innocent Boo. Which means that, according to Goku's estimation, SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo. Piccolo didn't seem to doubt about SS Gotenks when he felt his power (except for Gotenks' stupidity), which possibly proves Goku's prediction to be true.

However, when Evil Boo was born, Piccolo believed that Gotenks didn't stand a chance against the new Boo, since everything about Boo became greater according to Piccolo. The kids enter the Room of Spirit and Time for a week, they get stronger, they create new techniques, and finally, they achieve Super Saiyan 3 (all of those for Gotenks). Gotenks believed that base would be strong enough to defeat Evil Boo (deceiving Piccolo for a moment with his overconfidence & increase of his power, making Piccolo thinking for a moment that Gotenks could beat Boo in base), but he was wrong. He tried Super Saiyan, failed again. Then, with his Super Saiyan 3, he was stronger or at least equal with Boo, according to Piccolo.

So, since Super Saiyan makes the base Saiyan 50 times stronger, and Super Saiyan 3 makes a Super Saiyan 8 times stronger, it means that Evil Boo is about 8 times stronger than Innocent Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:13 pm

Fox666 wrote:Stop using these terrible scanlations, they don't prove anything.
Do you have a better source? If not - don't comment, this is the best we have to work with. If you do, please feel free to provide a link. I'm being VERY serious about this.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:16 pm

The japanese translation of the text has just been posted. Which you respond by posting awful scanlations that say something else.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:21 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:Goku has seen the fusion in action when he learned it in the afterlife. He saw that, individually, the two fighters from Metamor weren't very powerful, but fused together they were formidable, and he could easily assess what would happen if Goten and Trunks fused together too.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Besides, it's pretty clear that Goku (and Piccolo thereafter) was planning for Gotenks to fight Buu as a Super Saiya-jin, not in their base form (as indicated by wanting them to get used to equalizing their Ssj battle power when he first had them power up). We see that Piccolo is impressed by Gotenks' Ssj level of power, and if it were below what Goku had indicated it'd be at, Piccolo's the kind of person that wouldn't hesitate to say it. Base Gotenks losing to Buu is one thing, but Goku and Piccolo were expecting him to go in fifty times stronger than he was then.

As for eight times stronger, since we know that Goku and Piccolo felt that Ssj Gotenks would be enough to destroy Fat Buu, and that Evil Buu was pretty much on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (and that the Ssj3 transformation is eight times more powerful than the Ssj transformation), Evil Buu would have to be over eight times more powerful than Fat Buu as well in order to be even with Ssj3 Gotenks's strength.
And Goku was wrong - both in base and SSJ forms, Gotenks was no match for BUU - they didn't even exceed Vegeta's power until after the training.
And where are these multipliers coming from? It's not mentioned or implied, therefore you're making things up. Stick with what is stated in the story, I can agree that Superbuu is stronger (though it doesn't state by how much, as no real comparison shown) but don't try to conjure a story from your own opinion. Next time any of you do it, I will completely ignore that portion of the post.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:23 pm

Fox666 wrote:The japanese translation of the text has just been posted. Which you respond by posting awful scanlations that say something else.
One more time - provide the link to these supposed translations (and a reason why you believe them to be more accurate) Or don't post. What you are saying isn't helpful or constructive, nor have you been able to point out in what way these are inaccurate. At this point, you're jusy trolling around because you haven't added anything meaningful.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:39 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:
Darkprince410 wrote:Goku has seen the fusion in action when he learned it in the afterlife. He saw that, individually, the two fighters from Metamor weren't very powerful, but fused together they were formidable, and he could easily assess what would happen if Goten and Trunks fused together too.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Besides, it's pretty clear that Goku (and Piccolo thereafter) was planning for Gotenks to fight Buu as a Super Saiya-jin, not in their base form (as indicated by wanting them to get used to equalizing their Ssj battle power when he first had them power up). We see that Piccolo is impressed by Gotenks' Ssj level of power, and if it were below what Goku had indicated it'd be at, Piccolo's the kind of person that wouldn't hesitate to say it. Base Gotenks losing to Buu is one thing, but Goku and Piccolo were expecting him to go in fifty times stronger than he was then.

As for eight times stronger, since we know that Goku and Piccolo felt that Ssj Gotenks would be enough to destroy Fat Buu, and that Evil Buu was pretty much on par with Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks (and that the Ssj3 transformation is eight times more powerful than the Ssj transformation), Evil Buu would have to be over eight times more powerful than Fat Buu as well in order to be even with Ssj3 Gotenks's strength.
And Goku was wrong - both in base and SSJ forms, Gotenks was no match for BUU - they didn't even exceed Vegeta's power until after the training.
And where are these multipliers coming from? It's not mentioned or implied, therefore you're making things up. Stick with what is stated in the story, I can agree that Superbuu is stronger (though it doesn't state by how much, as no real comparison shown) but don't try to conjure a story from your own opinion. Next time any of you do it, I will completely ignore that portion of the post.
Gotenks never attempted to fight Fat Buu as a Super Saiya-jin. He only "fought" him in his base form, and we see from the end result that he lost in the fight. As a Super Saiya-jin, he was on his way to go fight Fat Buu, but he was playing around and burned off so much of his time that he de-fused before he could ever touch him. That doesn't change the fact though that Goku knows how powerful Super Saiya-jin Gotenks would have been, and that Piccolo showed no indication that Ssj Gotenks was weaker than Goku had established he should be.

The multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin transformations are given in the Super Exciting Guide, with the base to Ssj transformation already being given by the Daizenshuu. Super Saiya-jin is established as being 50 times stronger than the base, Super Saiya-jin 2 is twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is four times as strong as Super Saiya-jin 2.

As for the translations, they're all found here http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488

These are direct translations by Herms and several other individuals who have a clear understanding of the Japanese language and know how to accurately read and translate it. The scanslations you've been using have been considered inaccurate for years in the wake of the official Viz translation and other official translations in different languages. Some of the dialogue is slightly inaccurate, while other cases it's so far from the actual line that it ends up not being remotely correct. That's one of the reasons why it's been more or less an unwritten rule not to use scanslations in debates on here when it comes to character dialogue.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:39 pm

Check out, I have my own bad scanlations to prove you wrong:

Image

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Fox666 wrote:Check out, I have my own bad scanlations to prove you wrong:

Image
Reported - hopefully you have a fun time in timeout troll.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:54 pm

You know the illegal scanlations you are posting are against the rules of this site, right? :think:

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:55 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:Gotenks never attempted to fight Fat Buu as a Super Saiya-jin. He only "fought" him in his base form, and we see from the end result that he lost in the fight. As a Super Saiya-jin, he was on his way to go fight Fat Buu, but he was playing around and burned off so much of his time that he de-fused before he could ever touch him. That doesn't change the fact though that Goku knows how powerful Super Saiya-jin Gotenks would have been, and that Piccolo showed no indication that Ssj Gotenks was weaker than Goku had established he should be.

The multipliers for the Super Saiya-jin transformations are given in the Super Exciting Guide, with the base to Ssj transformation already being given by the Daizenshuu. Super Saiya-jin is established as being 50 times stronger than the base, Super Saiya-jin 2 is twice as strong as Super Saiya-jin, and Super Saiya-jin 3 is four times as strong as Super Saiya-jin 2.

As for the translations, they're all found here http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488

These are direct translations by Herms and several other individuals who have a clear understanding of the Japanese language and know how to accurately read and translate it. The scanslations you've been using have been considered inaccurate for years in the wake of the official Viz translation and other official translations in different languages. Some of the dialogue is slightly inaccurate, while other cases it's so far from the actual line that it ends up not being remotely correct. That's one of the reasons why it's been more or less an unwritten rule not to use scanslations in debates on here when it comes to character dialogue.
I asked the other guy, apparently he hasn't progressed though middle school reading comprehension or maturity, so I'll ask you - Post a link to the translations so I can read them myself or stop speaking of them. You're welcome to point out the inaccuracies in ANY of the scans I've posted (I'm not claiming they are correct) with both the Japanese and official English translation - you're buddy Herms carries no credibility with me - nor does a bunch of forum post that say "SSJ is a "X" multiplier. Seriously, have a mature discussion about this, or don't bother.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:00 pm

And you think you have credibility? :eh:

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Amuro Ray » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:10 pm

Fox666 wrote:And you think you have credibility? :eh:
What, you want this to descend into a pissing match? You can defend your non position (yes, I fully admit you have nothing to stand on, and I don't respect your opinion as a viable) to the best of your ability, but I don't care for your little snide remarks while you add nothing to the conversation.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Ookalf » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Amuro Ray wrote:I asked the other guy, apparently he hasn't progressed though middle school reading comprehension or maturity, so I'll ask you - Post a link to the translations so I can read them myself or stop speaking of them. You're welcome to point out the inaccuracies in ANY of the scans I've posted (I'm not claiming they are correct) with both the Japanese and official English translation - you're buddy Herms carries no credibility with me - nor does a bunch of forum post that say "SSJ is a "X" multiplier. Seriously, have a mature discussion about this, or don't bother.
...He did post a link to his translations (Herms' Strength Checker). He has been comparing your scans to an accurate translation of the Japanese (Herms'). What more do you want?

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Fox666 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:16 pm

Apparently he dismiss Herms translations, and only trust scanlations made with MS Paint.

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Re: Always confused about the forms of Boo

Post by Kaboom » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:31 pm

Warnings and mercifully short temp bans issued.

Sorry, everyone, but this thread has lost what little value it had to start with. Hopefully, bleed0range got what he needed out of the first page or two.
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