When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

[dbzfan7]

Wasn't Goku vs Majin Vegeta done along side Gohan and Dabura (meeting around Boo's egg). Seems odd why lightning couldn't be added for Gohan while it is for the SSJ2 fight.

People claim it was to show that Gohan was weaker or rusty so his ki wasn't sparking. Don't see how rage or power have to do with sparks but ok. People also claimed it was to show Gohan being weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

I guess?...I'd think the statements would be enough..but maybe not

[KentalSSJ6]

Man this has been a bitch to figure out hasn't it? We got evidence supporting both claims.

Screw it, if the manga had sparks then I'm on the side that says he was SSJ2.

[Reading Rainbow]

Their was a thread like this on DBZF not too long ago.

It's pretty clear that Gohan was only an SSJ2 at the Budokai (M10 as well if you include non-canon material). Ths is clearly shown because Gohan only had the sparks at the Budokai and not anywhere else in the Saga. Toriyama wouldn't point blank forget to put sparks on Gohan while he was fighting Dabura and Buu for no reason, he's a forgetful person but not to that degree lol.

Have you seen Gohan as an SSJ 1 before the 25th World Martial Arts tournament? I have, and when comparing THAT to SSJ 2 you can see subtle differences. SSJ 2 is not always represented as having eletricity - not even in the anime.

Also you're speaking as if you know Toriyama personally.

Only anime barely had sparks. Manga always had sparks. Gogeta8001 isn't speaking as if he know Toriyama. He speaking with logic. Any other time a ssj2 is there. SPARKS. This fight has no sparks the entire time. Yet people debate this.

Once again my first question: Have you seen Gohan as an SSJ 1 before the 25th World Martial Arts tournament? I'm referring to the manga here.

That's why you shouldn't take the Anime at face value. Gohan was an SSJ2 in M10 and he had no sparks. Goku and Vegeta were SSJ2's in M12 & M13 yet they still have no sparks.

No, I don't know Toriyama personally (wish I did though lol). What I do know is that based off the Manga, we can clearly see when SSJ2 is used or not regardless of the hairstyle. Every SSJ2 shown in the Manga is shown with Sparks and Gohan only had it during the Budokai. I don't think Toriyama would forget to put the sparks on Gohan during the Dabura and Buu fight if he intended for him to be SSJ2. And besides, Gohan already had the lead as an SSJ against Dabura since Goku states that Dabura is around the same level as Cell (this is debated a lot but it would make sense for Goku to be referring to the Supressed Cell that he actually got to fight VS the Cell he only saw and observed).

If you need any more proof on this, just look at the start of the Goku VS Majin Vegeta fight. Toriyama only draws Goku with sparks and not Vegeta being that he's the only SSJ2 and Vegeta hasn't transformed. Toriyama is very careful when differenting SSJ and SSJ2.

My first question: Have you seen Gohan as an SSJ 1 before the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament? I'm referring to the manga.

Their was a thread like this on DBZF not too long ago.

It's pretty clear that Gohan was only an SSJ2 at the Budokai (M10 as well if you include non-canon material). Ths is clearly shown because Gohan only had the sparks at the Budokai and not anywhere else in the Saga. Toriyama wouldn't point blank forget to put sparks on Gohan while he was fighting Dabura and Buu for no reason, he's a forgetful person but not to that degree lol.

Have you seen Gohan as an SSJ 1 before the 25th World Martial Arts tournament? I have, and when comparing THAT to SSJ 2 you can see subtle differences. SSJ 2 is not always represented as having eletricity - not even in the anime.

Also you're speaking as if you know Toriyama personally.

Only anime barely had sparks. Manga always had sparks. Gogeta8001 isn't speaking as if he know Toriyama. He speaking with logic. Any other time a ssj2 is there. SPARKS. This fight has no sparks the entire time. Yet people debate this.

Anime and movies barely had sparks and in the manga there isn't ALWAYS sparks - always means in every panel there are sparks no matter what, this is not the case. Also once again referring to my initial question: Have you seen Gohan as an SSJ 1 before the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament? I'm referring to the manga.

I understand the sparks vs non-sparks debate, but everyone seems to omit the training Gohan does with Goten before the Tournament, he's looks different than he does in SSJ 2. I've already posted this on in my previous comment and it got marked as spoiler and was most likely over looked:

Spoiler:

[Kaboom]

The thing is that between that training period and the next time we saw Gohan transform (to either SSJ1 or SSJ2), there was about a month of in-universe time and likely several times as much out-of-universe time, after which Gohan looks the same regardless of what form he's in. Evidently Gohan's hair simply grew out and changed in that time, or Toriyama decided to stop drawing that extra little bang while Gohan was transformed.

And when we've got one instance where Gohan was explicitly said to be a Super Saiyan 2 and showed specific traits (aura sparks) and a handful of other instances where he's NOT said to be at Super Saiyan 2 and does NOT show those traits, then...

[dbzfan7]

The manga also gives SSJ2's a different aura than SSJ. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta have a different aura from Gohan. SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament had sparks and the same aura as SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta. Against Dabura he didn't have those sparks or the same aura he had at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Maybe to make Gohan look weaker as an SSJ2, or maybe because he wasn't one.

[miguelnuva1]

That wasn't the full ssj2.

Based on Vegeta’s comments and actions thereafter, it was. The title of the anime episode would even suggest it being the full power of his state.

It was a burst. Vegeta didn't know how strong Goku truly was till they start fighting later.

[Super Vegetto]

That wasn't the full ssj2.

Based on Vegeta’s comments and actions thereafter, it was. The title of the anime episode would even suggest it being the full power of his state.

It was a burst. Vegeta didn't know how strong Goku truly was till they start fighting later.

Actualy he did know how strong is Goku...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

[Drayenko]

Actualy he did know how strong is Goku...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Yeah, he knew so much, he even knew Goku had SSJ3.

[Super Vegetto]

Actualy he did know how strong is Goku...

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Yeah, he knew so much, he even knew Goku had SSJ3.

Vegeta could tell just by that fight that Goku is stronger than him.

What's with "he even knew Goku had SSJ3" ?

[Drayenko]

You're saying he knew how strong Goku was, when in reality he was not even close.

[Super Vegetto]

He knew how strong Goku is or atlest assumed, which is the reason why he neaded boost in power.

SSJ3 didn't existed at that point, so yes he knew he could close the gap between them...

[Son_Gohan]

The transformation lasted for a second at the point you mentioned. In every point where a Super Saiyan 2/3 was stated to be there, he had sparks all the time, except for a few panels (and except when SS3 Goku was gathering energy, which was obviously because he was gathering energy). Which means that the sparks constantly come & go away, like they do in the anime when they are there.

It happens to be the only point in the transformation that Vegetto is drawn with sparks. When Gohan was injured by Cell he lacked an aura and sparks for many consecutive pages.

[miguelnuva1]

Vegeta says that at least your stronger than your son was when he fought Cell before they start fighting.

Vegeta's comment later is him talking about how Goku is always ahead of him. Vegeta knew from the burst that Goku was stronger than him but he didn't know how much till they start fighting.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It happens to be the only point in the transformation that Vegetto is drawn with sparks.

Vegetto was a Super Saiyan, not a Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

When Gohan was injured by Cell he lacked an aura and sparks for many consecutive pages.

Because he had given up. When Goku gave him confidence again, he powered-up, and the sparks were there.

[Super Vegetto]

Vegeta says that at least your stronger than your son was when he fought Cell before they start fighting.

Vegeta's comment later is him talking about how Goku is always ahead of him. Vegeta knew from the burst that Goku was stronger than him but he didn't know how much till they start fighting.

Actualy he says that he expected Goku's power is above Gohan's back from Cell games. Yet, we could say that SSJ2 against Yakkon had same amount of power because Vegeta judged by that, which is the reason he let himself in spell and says that later during the fight.

The episode name is Goku’s Power Wide Open!! Blow Away Yakon...if that means anything...

[Son_Gohan]

Vegetto was a Super Saiyan, not a Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

Because he had given up. When Goku gave him confidence again, he powered-up, and the sparks were there.

The manga depicts him as a Super Saiyan shown with sparks. Whatever conclusions you've drawn about sparks are merely your own, you have no way of knowing what Toriyama was thinking. If your rules for these forms are something purely subjective then no one is forced to follow them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The manga depicts him as a Super Saiyan shown with sparks. Whatever conclusions you've drawn about sparks are merely your own, you have no way of knowing what Toriyama was thinking. If your rules for these forms are something purely subjective then no one is forced to follow them.

Not really, there is at least one guidebook stating that the sparks are a trait of SS2. If you want to disregard said guidebook for whatever reason, you are free to do so. However, you can't go around saying that there is no proof when there is proof, even if that proof can be ignored.

[Son_Gohan]

Not really, there is at least one guidebook stating that the sparks are a trait of SS2. If you want to disregard said guidebook for whatever reason, you are free to do so. However, you can't go around saying that there is no proof when there is proof, even if that proof can be ignored.

A guidebook could state that the flame-like aura is a trait of Super Saiyan. Does that mean all depictions of Super Saiyan in the manga must have one to be in the form?

No. You are the one held accountable for interpreting something as absolute if it's not something that was established on its own.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

A guidebook could state that the flame-like aura is a trait of Super Saiyan. Does that mean all depictions of Super Saiyan in the manga must have one to be in the form?

Every Super Saiyan must be able to display it, it evidently, it's not necessarily always there.

[kuartus4]

The thing is that between that training period and the next time we saw Gohan transform (to either SSJ1 or SSJ2), there was about a month of in-universe time and likely several times as much out-of-universe time, after which Gohan looks the same regardless of what form he's in. Evidently Gohan's hair simply grew out and changed in that time, or Toriyama decided to stop drawing that extra little bang while Gohan was transformed.

And when we've got one instance where Gohan was explicitly said to be a Super Saiyan 2 and showed specific traits (aura sparks) and a handful of other instances where he's NOT said to be at Super Saiyan 2 and does NOT show those traits, then...

Wouldn't Gohan's hair growing out make the second bang during ssj even more prominent? It wouldn't make much sense for Gohan's hair becoming longer to be the reason for the disappearance of the 2nd bang when he's ssj1. And AT still drew SSJ1 Gohan with a 2nd bang in the tournament, so I don't think AT changed SSJ1 Gohan's hairstyle. Right panel, upper right corner: