When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:35 pm

I also believe that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 all the time, from getting angry with Spopovitch, to training with the Z-Sword, because he has the same hairstyle in all these instances, while his SS hairstyle was different from that a month before the tournament, and because it makes more sense for Gohan to be a SS2 against Dabra & Boo. So, while I still believe that the sparks are a trait of SS2 (and SS3), I guess Gohan's ki was "rusty" due to the lack of training for so long, so he didn't show sparks most of the time (only against Kibito, and he only stayed as a SS2 briefly).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Drayenko » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:44 pm

Goku made it pretty clear. I don't get why there's always so much confusion over this subject.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:47 pm

Drayenko wrote:Goku made it pretty clear. I don't get why there's always so much confusion over this subject.
Goku made very clear when he is a Super Saiyan 2. He didn't make anything clear about Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Drayenko » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:50 pm

Hahaha, that is so absurd. Do you expect him to say something like "oh yeah, by the way, Gohan an Vegeta have sparks in this form too"?

That's Toriyama talking through Goku. I have no problem with Gohan being a regular SSJ against Dabura.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:54 pm

And what exactly did Goku's showing of tells us about Gohan?

(Don't get me wrong, I can totally see why others view Gohan as a SS, I change my mind all the time.)
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:54 pm

I don't think the hair really matters. It was simply changed before the beginning of the tournament. Gohan only transformed into a Super Saiyan when he saw Videl getting pummeled, anyway. Going beyond that was never even mentioned until a bit later.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:49 pm

In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Puto » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Just want to chime in with something. After Gohan got his energy drained and Kibito healed him, I seem to recall something about Kibito not restoring him completely because he didn't have the energy for that. Could that be a reason for him to not go SS2?
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:50 pm

As far as I remember, Kibito just remarks that it's taking a while to recharge Gohan because of how strong he is, not that he can't do so completely.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Puto » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:55 pm

Hm, okay. Then the only thing I can think of is the explanation Gohan gave about why the meter filled up so quickly. Maybe he didn't go SS2 because he didn't want to give Boo too much energy.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Kaboom » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:07 pm

There's a good handful of potential explanations for why Gohan didn't or wouldn't go Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. All you basically have to do is pick one.

1) He was unable to take the form easily due to lack of practice with it or sufficient anger as a shortcut. [My favorite explanation]
2) Dabra was weaker than him so he didn't think he'd need it.
3) He was afraid of his rationality being affected like against Cell.
4) Spopovich and Yamu draining his energy earlier was still subtly affecting him somehow.
5) He's just generally incompetent as usual.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:08 pm

Yeah, basically he says "Still not at full-power yet? His Chi is immeasurable!" or something along those lines while he's healing him. I assume he continued on to finish healing him. To me, Gohan's quote on Goku and Vegeta bringing about significant damage energy because they were fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan is enough for me to believe he only used Super Saiyan against Dabra. Gohan had tons of anger built up after seeing Videl take a beat-down, so bringing it out wasn't as difficult. Later, even though he had some anger, he still appeared to have trouble accessing the form, which is shown right before his 2nd bout with Dabra. I think he wanted to do it, but he just couldn't for some reason.

Of course, Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Gohan, but Gohan makes it seem as though powers clashing at that (Super Saiyan 2) level are very likely to have ridiculous damage output. Gohan and Dabra were both weak and not very impressive. I'm okay with them being at Super Saiyan level.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Son_Gohan » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:28 pm

Drayenko wrote:Hahaha, that is so absurd. Do you expect him to say something like "oh yeah, by the way, Gohan an Vegeta have sparks in this form too"?

That's Toriyama talking through Goku. I have no problem with Gohan being a regular SSJ against Dabura.
Goku says nothing about an aura or sparks. You're taking the liberty of trying to talk on Toriyama's behalf. It's established pretty clearly in the manga that Gohan wasn't Goku or Vegeta's equals. If Goku showing an aura as a Super Saiyan had something to do with power output, an all-inclusive approach obviously couldn't apply; Gohan's form was not even drawn with a Super Saiyan aura early in the arc. There is no reason to view Goku's appearance as representing anymore than his own when the differences have already been rooted to set others apart. It's up to you if you want to limit your sight to the aura, but it's important to recognize it will not always be there, and that prevents it from ever being the primary trait of a form.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by kuartus4 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:44 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I don't think the hair really matters. It was simply changed before the beginning of the tournament. Gohan only transformed into a Super Saiyan when he saw Videl getting pummeled, anyway. Going beyond that was never even mentioned until a bit later.
I don't think AT changed SSJ Gohan's hairstyle. Gohan went ssj1 before going ssj2 full out vs Kibito since we see SSJ Gohan with a 2nd bang right before turning ssj2.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:28 pm

kuartus4 wrote:[quote="Super Saiyan Turlast x4".]I don't think the hair really matters. It was simply changed before the beginning of the tournament. Gohan only transformed into a Super Saiyan when he saw Videl getting pummeled, anyway. Going beyond that was never even mentioned until a bit later.
I don't think AT changed SSJ Gohan's hairstyle. Gohan went ssj1 before going ssj2 full out vs Kibito since we see SSJ Gohan with a 2nd bang right before turning ssj2.[/quote][/quote]

Gohan had one bang in both forms after the budokai.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:18 pm

Low Tone G wrote:Thank you, man!

It implies that Vegeta has attain SSJ2 during 7 years time-skip, if without Majin power-up he is able to transform in? I'm asking because it's debatable issue...
I honestly think it's ridiculous that Vegeta did not attain SSJ2 during those 7 years. If Goku was able to almost completely master TWO transformations in 7 years, why can't Vegeta attain 1 more transformation in this same time period? It also wouldn't make sense to say that Babidi "gave" him SSJ2... Like most on youtube would like to believe.

Vegeta and Goku both do very strenuous training. Also consider they've been near equals for half of the show, he's almost as capable as Goku is.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:20 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.
Mastered Super Saiyan is not a form.

Mastering a transformation does not bring you to a different state in power, it means you've fully controlled the form and it feels more normal. It is still 50x the base power.

When Goku and Gohan faced Cell in the Cell games, they were merely suppressing their Super Saiyan form, and then going full power.

The only reason Goku and Gohan had such a larger gap between them and Vegeta/Trunks was that they drastically increased their base power level by staying SSJ for so long and getting used to it, plus of course their training regimen overall.
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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Super Vegetto » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:55 am

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.
Mastered Super Saiyan is not a form.

Mastering a transformation does not bring you to a different state in power, it means you've fully controlled the form and it feels more normal. It is still 50x the base power.

When Goku and Gohan faced Cell in the Cell games, they were merely suppressing their Super Saiyan form, and then going full power.

The only reason Goku and Gohan had such a larger gap between them and Vegeta/Trunks was that they drastically increased their base power level by staying SSJ for so long and getting used to it, plus of course their training regimen overall.

I don't think they incrised their base power level at all because of staying in SSJ form. They were stronger because they trained together, and they managed to stay powered up 50x of normal base without feeling unatural. The main reason why they could achive full power of super saiyan form without drawbacks, which were grades before and Trunks/Vegeta didn't used them anymore...

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:17 pm

Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:
miguelnuva1 wrote:In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.
Mastered Super Saiyan is not a form.

Mastering a transformation does not bring you to a different state in power, it means you've fully controlled the form and it feels more normal. It is still 50x the base power.

When Goku and Gohan faced Cell in the Cell games, they were merely suppressing their Super Saiyan form, and then going full power.

The only reason Goku and Gohan had such a larger gap between them and Vegeta/Trunks was that they drastically increased their base power level by staying SSJ for so long and getting used to it, plus of course their training regimen overall.
Mssj is a different state of the same form like Assj and Ussj. Mssj is stated to remove stress, aggression and maximize ki output as well as simply mastering the form gives a power increase.

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Re: When was Gohan a SS2 in Boo arc (again)

Post by Son_Gohan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:27 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:In the anime its more clear he's a Mssj.
It wouldn't seem that way:

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